Zo believes Stid will start

[libra957]

Newton was the former mvp of a 15-1 team that went to the superbowl. He has chip on his shoulder, Stidham should be afraid. I don't really why Newton can't beat him for the starting job from a talent standpoint.

 

[Ring 6]

« Newton is different ». You are hopeful. I am just hoping.

Too many posters are taking for granted that health = greatness for Cam. Might be true. Not convinced.

I’m saying different in that he isnt going to retire and he’s a Qb so you need to keep him
in case of injury if he doesnt win the job.

 

[scott99]

I'm hoping they both have a GREAT training camp. May the best man win.

 

[goheels22002]

I would be fine starting Stidham and letting him grow. This is a lost season for many reasons so let Stid take some lumps and learn and be better for it.

The idea that this is a lost season only works for me if you are referring to the COVID-19 pandemic. Frankly, I don't see how they play an entire season. Players and coaches are going to test positive. The recent mutation of the virus makes it more infectious and is contributing to an increase in the number of younger adults and children testing positive.

These athletes have a lot to protect as far as their fitness and physical skills. Not since turberculosis have we seen a primarily respiratory illness this contagious and this physically destructive in such a short period of time. No one knows the long-term damage to lungs and other organs this thing leaves behind once it has run its course. These guys may have immune systems that can help them recover from an infection, but why risk a shorter career in 2020?

I think we'll see several players come in, get their training camp bonuses, and decide not to play. Several baseball players opted out for personal and family reasons. If even a few players per team start testing positive, the NFL and NFLPA will have very difficult decisions to make.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Newton was the former mvp of a 15-1 team that went to the superbowl. He has chip on his shoulder, Stidham should be afraid. I don't really why Newton can't beat him for the starting job from a talent standpoint.

None of us has gotten to see Stidham yet, so it's too early to tell which player is more talented.

 

[luuked]

None of us has gotten to see Stidham yet, so it's too early to tell which player is more talented.

I kinda get what you are poking at but at the same time it is pretty likely that we know who the more talented player is. Which at their respective point of careers is not even a dig at Stidham.

Stidham won't win a camp battle on talent but by showing a mastery of the playbook and vast improvement in his weak areas. And even then it will most likely come down to Cam's health in camp and throughout the season.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

I kinda get what you are poking at but at the same time it is pretty likely that we know who the more talented player is. Which at their respective point of careers is not even a dig at Stidham.

Stidham won't win a camp battle on talent but by showing a mastery of the playbook and vast improvement in his weak areas. And even then it will most likely come down to Cam's health in camp and throughout the season.

If you compare Cam's athleticism at his peak (2015) to Stidham, it's probably not even close. On his best day, Stidham won't come near Cam's best. However, how talented Cam is now is up for debate given his injury history. And yes, you are correct that Stidham is going to have to win the job by his knowledge of the offense.

 

[luuked]

If you compare Cam's athleticism at his peak (2015) to Stidham, it's probably not even close. On his best day, Stidham won't come near Cam's best. However, how talented Cam is now is up for debate given his injury history. And yes, you are correct that Stidham is going to have to win the job by his knowledge of the offense.

Athleticism doesn't even come into the equation for me. Stidham would have to make a big jump to be close to what Newton is as a passer. And don't even get me started on the enormous headstart Newton has when it comes to reading coverages and understanding defenses.

But again this is an unfair comparison between a fourth round project in his second year and a former MVP who has thrown for over 180 TDs so far. Realistically, the real competition for QB1 is between Newton and his body.

Again none of this is a dig at Stidham. Just playing the odds.

 

[Ring 6]

If you compare Cam's athleticism at his peak (2015) to Stidham, it's probably not even close. On his best day, Stidham won't come near Cam's best. However, how talented Cam is now is up for debate given his injury history. And yes, you are correct that Stidham is going to have to win the job by his knowledge of the offense.

Newton’s days of success as a qb, end when he stops being a dual threat and tries to be a pocket passer.
He hasn’t exactly been a good passer yet, and that is with the built in advantages of the threat of the run, and the mobility buying time to make coverage breakdown.

 

[Ring 6]

Here are some numbers on Newton. From 2011 to now newton has thrown 3980 passes.
The following is a list of the other 12 QBs who have thrown 3500 or more.
Brady
Brees
Ryan
Ben
Rivers
Rogers
Wilson
Stafford
Dalton
Eli
Flacco
Fitz

here is where newton ranks among them.
completion %. Last of 13
Pass yards 12 of 13 (only ahead of fitz)
Ypa 9 of 13 (Eli, fitz, Dalton, Flacco)
Td passes. 11 of 13 (fitz and Flacco)
Td % 9 of 13 (fitz dalton Flacco Eli)
Int. 7 of 13 (
Int % 10 of 13 (rivers, Eli, fitz)
Rating 11 of 13 ( fitz and Flacco )

That is where he stacks up as a passer against QBs who have started or mostly started since he came into the league.

 

[Wozzy]

Newton’s days of success as a qb, end when he stops being a dual threat and tries to be a pocket passer.
He hasn’t exactly been a good passer yet, and that is with the built in advantages of the threat of the run, and the mobility buying time to make coverage breakdown.

Agreed, Cam is a not pure passer or an accurate passer. At best he could be Matt Cassel as a passer. The question is can he be Cassel as a passer and Cam as a runner. He is a tightend sized QB who can move the chains with his feet.

Stidham has the potential to be a much better more accurate passer. He's not big and physically imposing as Cam but passing and protecting the ball is the position.

Cam might have the upper hand now with 10 padded practices and no preseason games. Plus Jarrett's ego could probably handle not getting the job out of camp, Cam's ego not so much.

 

[JarOfMayo51]

Who is Felger? Not making a joke. I have no clue who he is (I live in Atlanta).

I envy you

 

[Ring 6]

Agreed, Cam is a not pure passer or an accurate passer. At best he could be Matt Cassel as a passer. The question is can he be Cassel as a passer and Cam as a runner. He is a tightend sized QB who can move the chains with his feet.

Stidham has the potential to be a much better more accurate passer. He's not big and physically imposing as Cam but passing and protecting the ball is the position.

Cam might have the upper hand now with 10 padded practices and no preseason games. Plus Jarrett's ego could probably handle not getting the job out of camp, Cam's ego not so much.

If Newton can and will play as a dual threat it’s his job. If he can’t or won’t he either won’t win the job or won’t last long in it.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Agreed, Cam is a not pure passer or an accurate passer. At best he could be Matt Cassel as a passer. The question is can he be Cassel as a passer and Cam as a runner. He is a tightend sized QB who can move the chains with his feet.

I look to his last season, under Norv Turner, which was really his first opportunity to play with an offense that was unpredictable and that could exploit his abilities in the passing game as more than an afterthought.

In eight games played, before injury, under Turner in 2018, Newton looked phenomenal and back to his 2015 NFL MVP level.

6-2 record, 177 of 263 pass attempts (67.3 percent) for 1,893 yards with 15 TDs and four INTs, and rushed 73 times for 342 yards and four more scores.

Norv Turner told Belichick that Cam Newton would be great fit

He was indeed an accurate passer in that offense. Norv has always been a great OC, so maybe it was an outlier. But it gives Josh a blueprint on how to make the most of whatever it is that Cam has left in the tank. I'd bet there's something left that is a lot better than what Stidham has.

 

[scott99]

The debate as far as talent, well they are two different kinds of talents. Cam is a TRUE dual threat QB, who takes off in a moment's notice. He just goes. Stidham is more of a pocket passer with mobility. In HS and at Baylor, he was also a dual threat. But he is more of as pocket passer, who may prove to have an edge on Cam when it comes to accuracy and ball security.

Even when Cam won the MVP, it was based on his duality as a QB. He was under 60% completion percentage, under 4000 yards passing, 35 TD passes and 10 Ints is an excellent TD to INT ratio. But what really made him the MVP is he rushed for over 600 yards and 10 rushing TDs, so he was responsible for 45 tds that year. Interestingly enough, his best passing percentage season was in 2018, at 67.9. The other years, he only had 2 seasons of 60% or above. 59.6 for his career. So, not the most accurate passer, but when healthy, brings so many other threats to the game.

Stidham, by no means, is solely a pocket passer. He's got some good mobility. Not comparing him to Mahomes, but Mahomes ran a 4.80 and Stidham ran a 4.81 at their perspective combines. So Stidham ain't slow, he can run.

 

[Wozzy]

I look to his last season, under Norv Turner, which was really his first opportunity to play with an offense that was unpredictable and that could exploit his abilities in the passing game as more than an afterthought.

In eight games played, before injury, under Turner in 2018, Newton looked phenomenal and back to his 2015 NFL MVP level.

6-2 record, 177 of 263 pass attempts (67.3 percent) for 1,893 yards with 15 TDs and four INTs, and rushed 73 times for 342 yards and four more scores.

Norv Turner told Belichick that Cam Newton would be great fit

He was indeed an accurate passer in that offense. Norv has always been a great OC, so maybe it was an outlier. But it gives Josh a blueprint on how to make the most of whatever it is that Cam has left in the tank. I'd bet there something left that is a lot better than what Stidham has.

I agree a great coordinator can use scheme to make a lesser passer more efficient, Lamar Jackson is another example last year.

But at the end of the day the odds say you'll meet at least one really good defense in the playoffs who can stop the run and contain your QB in the pocket over a three game series. You may get lucky and have an easy road to a championship, but I'd prefer not to rely on luck. You almost always have to pass from the pocket to win a championship.

Tom Brady was arguably the worst running QB in the league, he is the greatest QB of all time... pretty much defines the importance of running where the QB position is concerned.

Passing is the job, running is just gravy.

 

[captain stone]

I envy you

Agreed...except for living in Atlanta...It's not called Hotlanta for nothing...

 

[luuked]

Tom Brady was arguably the worst running QB in the league, he is the greatest QB of all time... pretty much defines the importance of running where the QB position is concerned.

Passing is the job, running is just gravy.

The thing you are not touching is that the most valuable thing about a QB who is a running threat is not him actually running but the perceived danger this causes and the amount of zone coverage you will get as a result.

Which ironically was one of the bigger problems with the Brady offense in those games where they couldn't move the ball consistently. Yes it required somewhat competent DBs and a lot of discipline but the better teams were able to cause some trouble. Which turned games into a race with time while McDaniels was trying to find mismatches with different types of personnel.

As with everything some things will be more difficult to run without Brady but others will become easier with Newton.

If healthy.

 

[RASTAN99]

... don't even get me started on the enormous headstart Newton has when it comes to reading coverages and understanding defenses.

Again none of this is a dig at Stidham. Just playing the odds.

Be careful on estimating how much Cam "understands" about, anything...

The primary question here is whether or not Cam has the intellect to grasp & execute the system BB wants to employ...

...the secondary question is whether or not Cam has the discipline.

Combined the two present a VERY high hurdle...

 

[Lagaffe_07]

Even when Cam won the MVP, it was based on his duality as a QB. He was under 60% completion percentage, under 4000 yards passing, 35 TD passes and 10 Ints is an excellent TD to INT ratio. But what really made him the MVP is he rushed for over 600 yards and 10 rushing TDs, so he was responsible for 45 tds that year.

completely agree with this. His running made the difference. His passing stats were inflated because of the threat to run. Cam had a 99.4 passer rating and a 67 QBR. For comparison, in 2015, Brady had 36 TD, 7 Int, 64.4 comp %, 4770 yds, qb rating of 102.2 and a QBR of 68. And he never really was considered to be an MVP that year.

I never really consider Cam a great QB, certainly not top 10. He really never was consistent. I can’t really see evidence that he can reproduce his 2015 season. I don’t think that Stidham is better than Cam but I just temper my expectation of Cam.

for his 2018 stats, If he had those throwing middle or deep range passes, I would have been excited but I think that throwing dump off to Mcaffrey, mislead those stats.

In the end, it’s a circular debate. The pro Cam think, he will play at 2015 level and the pro Stidham think he is the second coming of Brady.

edit: I correct myself, Brady was considered MVP most of the year