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Content Post Words on things I watched, read & heard II


This has an opening post with good commentary and information, which we definitely recommend reading.
I know I'm not rational about Haynes and Cunningham. I can't help myself. I will take Ty Law and Raymond Clayborn over Mike Haynes.
I can understand that. Always more love for the career Pats. But it wasn't Haynes' fault he left. Just like Buono. We know who's fault it was.
As far as game, I love both Ty and Clay- but neither one was as good as Haynes. Not even close
 
My phone is dying and I'm out but this has some layers I'll unpeel later.

Sorry if you already gave a response in a post on its own (I could've missed it); but was wondering if you still had a take/point on this?
 
Sorry if you already gave a response in a post on its own (I could've missed it); but was wondering if you still had a take/point on this?
I can't win lol ... I'll definitely touch on this in a few. My bad I'm just always using my phone.
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I know I only come in here with questions, so pardon the incessant asking, but:
Sorry man. I actually really appreciate the questions.
What is different about CB and FS play? I guess I'm more wondering, what intangibles/measurables/knowledge does a FS possess that a CB doesn't? And why do draft articles often list slot CB's as a potential safety?

Just trying to understand what separates a FS and CB - maybe explaining why Dmac made the transition so cleanly would help? Can most CB's transition to FS? Or is that rare?

Seems like I've been reading that the safeties should be all day 2 picks.
I'll tackle the bolded here. I'm sure @patfanken has a thing or two to say about this as well.

Instincts and Play Recognition - are probably the biggest factors here. You're reading and playing so much more of the field at Saf so your Instincts have to be top notch. And you have to be a fast thinker in your feet. You're not playing and recognizing tells on one guy rather than watching the whole picture develop. Instead of watching one guys hips or hands your looking to see if a TE leaves the los or splits out. PA, Motion, misdirection? What are they setting us up for? "I'm the last line of defense" All these things and a lot more are going through their mind. So your instincts can't be lacking at all. And again you need to see things happen before they happen and be able to mess with a QB as much as they mess with you.

Run support and tackling are the other(s). You substitute LB for Nickels for example so they better be strong in run support. Run support is huge though. Strong, FS it doesn't matter in doesn't matter in today's game. Whether you're making plays near the line or in the open field. You can't be afraid to get dirty and stick your nose in there. Again especially when you're subbing LB out for Saf. That exchange has to make sense.

DMC is all of these things and so much more. In his prime QB's simply didn't test him. They wouldn't throw his way or at him bc he had all those things plus great ball skills to finish the play.

In terms of physical attributes? Agility is definitely up there bc you need to change direction so much. In coverage or coming off PA. Also taking on someone in the open field. Burst > long speed imo. Size certainly helps.
 
Sorry man. I actually really appreciate the questions.

I'll tackle the bolded here. I'm sure @patfanken has a thing or two to say about this as well.

Instincts and Play Recognition - are probably the biggest factors here. You're reading and playing so much more of the field at Saf so your Instincts have to be top notch. And you have to be a fast thinker in your feet. You're not playing and recognizing tells on one guy rather than watching the whole picture develop. Instead of watching one guys hips or hands your looking to see if a TE leaves the los or splits out. PA, Motion, misdirection? What are they setting us up for? "I'm the last line of defense" All these things and a lot more are going through their mind. So your instincts can't be lacking at all. And again you need to see things happen before they happen and be able to mess with a QB as much as they mess with you.

Run support and tackling are the other(s). You substitute LB for Nickels for example so they better be strong in run support. Run support is huge though. Strong, FS it doesn't matter in doesn't matter in today's game. Whether you're making plays near the line or in the open field. You can't be afraid to get dirty and stick your nose in there. Again especially when you're subbing LB out for Saf. That exchange has to make sense.

DMC is all of these things and so much more. In his prime QB's simply didn't test him. They wouldn't throw his way or at him bc he had all those things plus great ball skills to finish the play.

In terms of physical attributes? Agility is definitely up there bc you need to change direction so much. In coverage or coming off PA. Also taking on someone in the open field. Burst > long speed imo. Size certainly helps.
I am not sure I am right but would add 1. Free Safety plays with everything in front of him. Backing up or coming forward, but everything stays in front of him. So has to anticipate more to close gaps. CB, when man marking, play with a trailing technique sometimes so can play with his back to the ball. 2. In some situations, Cover 0 for instance, the free safety might have to cover a TE, so height and strength are more important. Outside CB rarely covers a TE, but some outside WR can be tall like T Higgins. 3. FS will commonly process more and might direct the defense whereas CB is usually concentrating single man coverage or a zone area of the field. 4. Straight line speed is usually more important for CB because they jam at the line and then have to run with the receiver whereas the safety has a cushion and is not running with the receiver. Having said that, a FS has to be fast enough to make up space from the middle to outside of the field if playing "single high safety" (which McCourty did a lot). 5. CB uses hand fighting more for jamming at the line, FS does not use hand fighting as much.
 
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I think this thread is the best place to put this tidbit:

Today...over at the Athletic they had an article titled, "re-do of the 2020 draft" and:

a.) They had Herbert going #1 overall and Burrow going #2 overall...-citing that Herbert is the more talented QB and would thrive with Chase/Higgins (shrugs).

b.) They had Dugger going #13 overall.

c.) They had Owneu going #22 overall.

Just interesting to me and thought I'd share. (Paywalled article)
 
I'm confused about why so many people are high on the 5'11" 172-pound Flowers after the hue and cry over a 181-pound Thornton.

Flowers looks WAY more agile at the LOS than Thornton has; and most of Mac's completions will be closer to the LOS than to where Thornton made his rep while in college...
 
I think this thread is the best place to put this tidbit:

Today...over at the Athletic they had an article titled, "re-do of the 2020 draft" and:

a.) They had Herbert going #1 overall and Burrow going #2 overall...-citing that Herbert is the more talented QB and would thrive with Chase/Higgins (shrugs).

b.) They had Dugger going #13 overall.

c.) They had Owneu going #22 overall.

Just interesting to me and thought I'd share. (Paywalled article)

Wonder where they re-drafted Trevon Diggs... or Jeremy Chinn... or Gabriel Davis... or Tyler Badass...
 
b.) They had Dugger going #13 overall.

c.) They had Owneu going #22 overall.

Pats traded out of the first round if I recall correctly. Uche was their other pick of merit. Jennings (second-rounder) is the only other pick still with the team.
 
Pats traded out of the first round if I recall correctly. Uche was their other pick of merit. Jennings (second-rounder) is the only other pick still with the team.
Anfernee Jennings was a 3rd rounder, not a 2nd. Dugger and Uche were the 2nd rounders that year.
 
Sorry man. I actually really appreciate the questions.

I'll tackle the bolded here. I'm sure @patfanken has a thing or two to say about this as well.

Instincts and Play Recognition - are probably the biggest factors here. You're reading and playing so much more of the field at Saf so your Instincts have to be top notch. And you have to be a fast thinker in your feet. You're not playing and recognizing tells on one guy rather than watching the whole picture develop. Instead of watching one guys hips or hands your looking to see if a TE leaves the los or splits out. PA, Motion, misdirection? What are they setting us up for? "I'm the last line of defense" All these things and a lot more are going through their mind. So your instincts can't be lacking at all. And again you need to see things happen before they happen and be able to mess with a QB as much as they mess with you.

Run support and tackling are the other(s). You substitute LB for Nickels for example so they better be strong in run support. Run support is huge though. Strong, FS it doesn't matter in doesn't matter in today's game. Whether you're making plays near the line or in the open field. You can't be afraid to get dirty and stick your nose in there. Again especially when you're subbing LB out for Saf. That exchange has to make sense.

DMC is all of these things and so much more. In his prime QB's simply didn't test him. They wouldn't throw his way or at him bc he had all those things plus great ball skills to finish the play.

In terms of physical attributes? Agility is definitely up there bc you need to change direction so much. In coverage or coming off PA. Also taking on someone in the open field. Burst > long speed imo. Size certainly helps.
As the league runs more and more passing plays the labels that we all have in our minds about FS, SS and LB have become very blurred. I see them become less and less distinct positions than they have in the past. Duggar is that SS construct we have in our minds, while DMac in his prime was exactly what we wanted in the ideal FS, which was CB speed and agility with a super high football IQ who made sure that the secondary was in the correct position pre-snap, and could cover deep side line to side line. He also had to be tough enough to be a sure and effective tackler as he WAS the last line of defense.

Dmac was ALWAYS a great ballhawk with a nose for the ball. He excelled as a zone boundary corner, but was less effective in press man. So the move to FS was win win for the team and probably extended his career by about 5 years. I hope he comes back. I assume all DBs are fast and quick, so if I had to think of the skill set that will make a great FS in today's game, I would think its how fast he can process what he sees at the snap of the ball, so he can ANTICIPATE where the ball is likely to go and can get there.

Formations, motions and position groupings will all give clues about what is going to happen before the snap, what he sees after that snap are the beginnings of route combinations. How fast he can read these is critical To be effective you have to both decisive AND right. Size and length are always an advantage, but mean nothing without the IQ and anticipation.

I believe that the Pats currently have 2 guys who can potentially fill this role in Phillips and Mills. Mills has the experience with Philly, and Phillips is thought by many to be strictly a "box safety", but he's played the position before in this defense and has the speed and I believe the instinct to play it well. I don't know Bledsoe's game well enough to know if he could do it, but who knows. Peppers and Duggar should be your "box safeties/TE defenders" assuming they resign Peppers.

We have too many other positions that REALLY need priority over S in the draft AND FA. I'd want to see a CB. OT, LB, DT (now that it looks like the WFT are going to franchise Payne) WR, TE and C before we add a FS type. Just sayin
 
Sorry man. I actually really appreciate the questions.

I'll tackle the bolded here. I'm sure @patfanken has a thing or two to say about this as well.

Instincts and Play Recognition - are probably the biggest factors here. You're reading and playing so much more of the field at Saf so your Instincts have to be top notch. And you have to be a fast thinker in your feet. You're not playing and recognizing tells on one guy rather than watching the whole picture develop. Instead of watching one guys hips or hands your looking to see if a TE leaves the los or splits out. PA, Motion, misdirection? What are they setting us up for? "I'm the last line of defense" All these things and a lot more are going through their mind. So your instincts can't be lacking at all. And again you need to see things happen before they happen and be able to mess with a QB as much as they mess with you.

Run support and tackling are the other(s). You substitute LB for Nickels for example so they better be strong in run support. Run support is huge though. Strong, FS it doesn't matter in doesn't matter in today's game. Whether you're making plays near the line or in the open field. You can't be afraid to get dirty and stick your nose in there. Again especially when you're subbing LB out for Saf. That exchange has to make sense.

DMC is all of these things and so much more. In his prime QB's simply didn't test him. They wouldn't throw his way or at him bc he had all those things plus great ball skills to finish the play.

In terms of physical attributes? Agility is definitely up there bc you need to change direction so much. In coverage or coming off PA. Also taking on someone in the open field. Burst > long speed imo. Size certainly helps.


Appreciate the breakdown as always! I'll have to start keeping an eye on the safety position and see who looks promising. Trying to get a little bit more into draft analysis to give me something to read over the off-season. This post helps and gives me an "eye" to start with. Also thanks to @One-If-By-Sea for your expansion on that.
 
As the league runs more and more passing plays the labels that we all have in our minds about FS, SS and LB have become very blurred. I see them become less and less distinct positions than they have in the past. Duggar is that SS construct we have in our minds, while DMac in his prime was exactly what we wanted in the ideal FS, which was CB speed and agility with a super high football IQ who made sure that the secondary was in the correct position pre-snap, and could cover deep side line to side line. He also had to be tough enough to be a sure and effective tackler as he WAS the last line of defense.

Dmac was ALWAYS a great ballhawk with a nose for the ball. He excelled as a zone boundary corner, but was less effective in press man. So the move to FS was win win for the team and probably extended his career by about 5 years. I hope he comes back. I assume all DBs are fast and quick, so if I had to think of the skill set that will make a great FS in today's game, I would think its how fast he can process what he sees at the snap of the ball, so he can ANTICIPATE where the ball is likely to go and can get there.

Formations, motions and position groupings will all give clues about what is going to happen before the snap, what he sees after that snap are the beginnings of route combinations. How fast he can read these is critical To be effective you have to both decisive AND right. Size and length are always an advantage, but mean nothing without the IQ and anticipation.

I believe that the Pats currently have 2 guys who can potentially fill this role in Phillips and Mills. Mills has the experience with Philly, and Phillips is thought by many to be strictly a "box safety", but he's played the position before in this defense and has the speed and I believe the instinct to play it well. I don't know Bledsoe's game well enough to know if he could do it, but who knows. Peppers and Duggar should be your "box safeties/TE defenders" assuming they resign Peppers.

We have too many other positions that REALLY need priority over S in the draft AND FA. I'd want to see a CB. OT, LB, DT (now that it looks like the WFT are going to franchise Payne) WR, TE and C before we add a FS type. Just sayin

Great breakdown, the explanation into how the roles of a safety have been blurred is interesting and something I've noticed around the league. I did stumble upon this article from back in 2018, and how the lines had been blurred to the point where safeties are seeing higher snaps in the slot as well (PFF Closer Look: NFL teams utilizing safeties in the slot | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF) - has that trend been keeping up? With Jonathan Jones moving to the outside, I forget who was getting the snaps in the slot last year (CB? or safety?), or if it was more case-by-case for each game.
 
Sorry man. I actually really appreciate the questions.

I'll tackle the bolded here. I'm sure @patfanken has a thing or two to say about this as well.

Instincts and Play Recognition - are probably the biggest factors here. You're reading and playing so much more of the field at Saf so your Instincts have to be top notch. And you have to be a fast thinker in your feet. You're not playing and recognizing tells on one guy rather than watching the whole picture develop. Instead of watching one guys hips or hands your looking to see if a TE leaves the los or splits out. PA, Motion, misdirection? What are they setting us up for? "I'm the last line of defense" All these things and a lot more are going through their mind. So your instincts can't be lacking at all. And again you need to see things happen before they happen and be able to mess with a QB as much as they mess with you.

Run support and tackling are the other(s). You substitute LB for Nickels for example so they better be strong in run support. Run support is huge though. Strong, FS it doesn't matter in doesn't matter in today's game. Whether you're making plays near the line or in the open field. You can't be afraid to get dirty and stick your nose in there. Again especially when you're subbing LB out for Saf. That exchange has to make sense.

DMC is all of these things and so much more. In his prime QB's simply didn't test him. They wouldn't throw his way or at him bc he had all those things plus great ball skills to finish the play.

In terms of physical attributes? Agility is definitely up there bc you need to change direction so much. In coverage or coming off PA. Also taking on someone in the open field. Burst > long speed imo. Size certainly helps.
I would add that in our defense (NH high school, not Pats) that our corners are the only ones who play pass first every down. Everyone else has some level of run support or read/react, but we want our corners focused on the WR they are covering.
 
Great breakdown, the explanation into how the roles of a safety have been blurred is interesting and something I've noticed around the league. I did stumble upon this article from back in 2018, and how the lines had been blurred to the point where safeties are seeing higher snaps in the slot as well (PFF Closer Look: NFL teams utilizing safeties in the slot | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF) - has that trend been keeping up? With Jonathan Jones moving to the outside, I forget who was getting the snaps in the slot last year (CB? or safety?), or if it was more case-by-case for each game.
You know before I read the article (and thanks for it), the first thought that went through my mind was, "who WAS playing the slot when JJones had to move outside?" I guess it was a combination of safeties plus Marcus Jones. MJones at first glance looks to be a very good press man cover guy, HOWEVER his size limitations diminish some of that effectiveness and always will, especially as WR's as a group keep getting taller.

That's why I'm so hot and bothered to get a shutdown CB prospect with some SIZE at 14, especially when there will be SEVERAL to choose from (Ringo, Porter, Gonzales, and Smith will likely all be there)
 
I would add that in our defense (NH high school, not Pats) that our corners are the only ones who play pass first every down. Everyone else has some level of run support or read/react, but we want our corners focused on the WR they are covering.
What kind of crap D are you running up there, Steve? No run support from your CB's????? Just kidding

You must be doing all man concepts. Easier for HS kids to pick up rotational defenses (to formation or motion) that will make it easier for kids to excel and also add another body vs the run, especially in RPO looks. Secondary's need to work in unison. OK to use "lock on's" when its a sure passing situations and you have some sort of a 5 man rush to speed up the decision making
 
You know before I read the article (and thanks for it), the first thought that went through my mind was, "who WAS playing the slot when JJones had to move outside?" I guess it was a combination of safeties plus Marcus Jones. MJones at first glance looks to be a very good press man cover guy, HOWEVER his size limitations diminish some of that effectiveness and always will, especially as WR's as a group keep getting taller.
It was almost entirely Myles Bryant. The narratives were out of control, with people just kind of assuming Marcus Jones had taken over that role. I’m convinced that’s part of why people hated Bryant so much, because they assumed MaJones was getting the slot snaps when things were going well and only noticed Bryant when he gave up a catch. Nope, Bryant was there the whole time.
 
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It was almost entirely Myles Bryant. The narratives were out of control, with people just kind of assuming Marcus Jones had taken over that role. I’m convinced that’s part of why people hated Bryant so much, because they assumed MaJones was getting the slot snaps when things were going well and only noticed Bryant when he gave up a catch. Nope, Bryant was there the whole time.
Well THAT narrative is now over. Just like EVERY year, a new team will rise out of the ashes of the previous season like a Phoenix. About a 25-30% turnover in players and en entirely new team chemistry that needs to be put together. You always retain core players, even as we did during great years, BUT Bill has always pointed out how its never the same year to year, where often times the same people have different responsibilities, just as how we play our opponents is determined by how THEIR team changes from year to year.

Its not like in basketball and hockey MAJOR personnel changes happen every year which can chnage. This year with 11 draft picks, there will likely be at LEAST 15 new faces between now and September. Hopefully that will be a good thing, but sometimes its not.
 


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