Who do you want in more hoyer or zappe

[crawhammer]

Based upon preseason Zappe could of started the season as a backup on many teams, he showed promise. That's why he made the team rather than not. If he looked bad, they could have cut him and sent him to the practice squad with zero risk.

I think they felt compelled to keep a 4th round draft choice. They chose to make the investment at the draft and apparently saw enough of him in college to take him in the 4th round when they had other needs. I would have cut him and sent him to the practice squad but it's a moot point now with Jones hurt... either way Zappe would be on the 53-man roster now.

Hoyer is the backup because the average age of the other two QB's is 23/24 year's old and they needed a QB coach as well as a bridge QB... beyond "back up QB" the only other job that has kept Hoyer employed for his long long career has been "bridge QB."

Hoyer's the backup because he's cheap, experienced (for better or worse), and they probably considered him a decent mentor of sorts for Jones. That he's thrust into action isn't making anyone happy. However, it's fortunate timing with the upcoming schedule so I think he'll be adequate enough to get them through with a winning record.

The concern with Zappe is turnovers and how he will react under live fire, not whether he can pass or run the offense. He has the tools, he did it effectively in preseason. Stidham did it in preseason and pissed down his leg under live fire, but we can't live our lives under the presumption every player they being in will suck... even if some here do.

Turnovers are already a top concern so we don't need to compound that with an underwhelmingly talented rookie quarterback. Hoyer will get a free pass @Green Bay considering the degree of difficulty there. Thereafter he would really have be hopelessly horrendous to get benched in favor of Zappe (who was not drafted with any notion of him starting a game, probably ever, but certainly not this season).

 

[Wozzy]

I think they felt compelled to keep a 4th round draft choice. They chose to make the investment at the draft and apparently saw enough of him in college to take him in the 4th round when they had other needs. I would have cut him and sent him to the practice squad but it's a moot point now with Jones hurt... either way Zappe would be on the 53-man roster now.

The Patriots regularly cut draft picks if they suck. We could just argue the point, or I could list all the draft picks who are gone… there are many.

The stats… Zappe threw the third most passing yards in the preseason, completed 63% of his passes. Yeah, he threw INT’s which I stated above… but preseason was a long time ago. He showed enough to make the team regardless of draft status.

Hoyer's the backup because he's cheap, experienced (for better or worse), and they probably considered him a decent mentor of sorts for Jones. That he's thrust into action isn't making anyone happy. However, it's fortunate timing with the upcoming schedule so I think he'll be adequate enough to get them through with a winning record.

There are dozens of cheap backup QB’s they could hire. Hoyer has familiarity with the system, is a coach on the sideline, and can teach the rookie QB’s. Mac and Zappe are the developmental guys.

Turnovers are already a top concern so we don't need to compound that with an underwhelmingly talented rookie quarterback. Hoyer will get a free pass @Green Bay considering the degree of difficulty there. Thereafter he would really have be hopelessly horrendous to get benched in favor of Zappe (who was not drafted with any notion of him starting a game, probably ever, but certainly not this season).

We have no clue what Zappe is now… nothing. Nobody knows what Zappe looks like after preparing as a starter for a week or two or three.

I realize Zappe is a long shot to play, especially with BB as the head coach. Hoyer will start this week either way. But my optimistic side wants to see Zappe in the subsequent game or following one. Will it happen? I offer no guarantees on rookies.

 

[crawhammer]

The Patriots regularly cut draft picks if they suck. We could just argue the point, or I could list all the draft picks who are gone… there are many.

The stats… Zappe threw the third most passing yards in the preseason, completed 63% of his passes. Yeah, he threw INT’s which I stated above… but preseason was a long time ago. He showed enough to make the team regardless of draft status.

True enough regarding the draft pick cuts however I stand by what I said as it specifically relates to Zappe.

I don't think you really can say too much about preseason stats with the competition being generally what is it. I just didn't see a lot of obvious talent in Zappe's game. My guess is if he in fact gets any meaningful playing time in Mac's absence it won't be pretty.

There are dozens of cheap backup QB’s they could hire. Hoyer has familiarity with the system, is a coach on the sideline, and can teach the rookie QB’s. Mac and Zappe are the developmental guys.

I agree with Hoyer being a good resource for the younger quarterbacks. Let's hope he has enough play left in him where he can run a functional offense for a few weeks.

We have no clue what Zappe is now… nothing. Nobody knows what Zappe looks like after preparing as a starter for a week or two or three.

I realize Zappe is a long shot to play, especially with BB as the head coach. Hoyer will start this week either way. But my optimistic side wants to see Zappe in the subsequent game or following one. Will it happen? I offer no guarantees on rookies.

I suppose out of sheer curiosity I would like to see Zappe play but as you say only with the preparation of a starter. He wouldn't stand a chance being thrown into a game unless it's total garbage time.

 

[Wozzy]

True enough regarding the draft pick cuts however I stand by what I said as it specifically relates to Zappe.

I suppose out of sheer curiosity I would like to see Zappe play but as you say only with the preparation of a starter. He wouldn't stand a chance being thrown into a game unless it's total garbage time.

I want to see the Patriots as a team play better, especially offensively. Outside of turnovers they have played better each week.

Whether Hoyer starts every game Mac misses or not, I want the offense to play efficiently, to turn the ball over less. If the offense only passes for 100-150 yards but plays mistake free, the addition of Hoyer or Zappe could be addition by subtraction.

Mac might learn something watching what this team can accomplish if they simply don’t make mistakes. If by some chance Zappe plays and plays well, maybe it will be a swift kick in the rear for Mac to realize his professional mortality. Nobody is given anything in this league.

So when asked who I want to start, I hope it’s Zappe sooner than later. Who I think will start, it will be Hoyer. I hope to be pleasantly surprised.

 

[crawhammer]

I want to see the Patriots as a team play better, especially offensively. Outside of turnovers they have played better each week.

Whether Hoyer starts every game Mac misses or not, I want the offense to play efficiently, to turn the ball over less. If the offense only passes for 100-150 yards but plays mistake free, the addition of Hoyer or Zappe could be addition by subtraction.

Mac might learn something watching what this team can accomplish if they simply don’t make mistakes. If by some chance Zappe plays and plays well, maybe it will be a swift kick in the rear for Mac to realize his professional mortality. Nobody is given anything in this league.

So when asked who I want to start, I hope it’s Zappe sooner than later. Who I think will start, it will be Hoyer. I hope to be pleasantly surprised.

Under your scenario I would hope to be pleasantly surprised with Zappe.

I'm with you on the turnovers but it's a lot to ask of either backup quarterback to play mistake free football. Especially in Lambeau against Aaron Rodgers who probably will have the Patriots playing catchup all night. Limiting quarterback mistakes against the lesser opponents (Lions, Bears, Jets, etc.) may be of more importance because turnovers may be one of the few ways in which those teams can beat you. Defense, running game and mistake free quarterback play should be enough to beat those teams.

 

[cupofjoe1962]

I would vote for RLKAG over Hoyer.

What’s Hoyer’s record in his last dozen games as a starter?

Hoyer will be the worst starting QB, so why
Not give the kid a chance?

He won’t need to do much to out perform Hoyer.

 

[Ross12]

Not sure why Hoyer’s last X number of games “as a starter” record is relevant to this discussion. Those games were almost all played with different franchises composed of entirely different talent levels and with entirely different coaching and offensive systems, spread out across a span of 5 years. How is that relevant to today?

If you actually look at his record and look at the two years immediately preceding the No Good Very Bad 0-11 Run (spread out across 4 different franchises), you’ll see he went 7-6 as a starter with Cleveland in 2014 and 5-4 with Houston in 2015. Somehow that doesn’t apply though.

 

[The Brandon Five]

This wouldn't be a question if Bill still truly made decisions that were "best for the team"...I miss that guy

 

[archstanton543]

Not sure why Hoyer’s last X number of games “as a starter” record is relevant to this discussion. Those games were almost all played with different franchises composed of entirely different talent levels and with entirely different coaching and offensive systems, spread out across a span of 5 years. How is that relevant to today?

If you actually look at his record and look at the two years immediately preceding the No Good Very Bad 0-11 Run (spread out across 4 different franchises), you’ll see he went 7-6 as a starter with Cleveland in 2014 and 5-4 with Houston in 2015. Somehow that doesn’t apply though.

Because games lost are games lost. He got fired or replaced because of them.

Good thing you're not a GM (or any kind of hiring manager).

- "It says here you were fired from your job three times because you were really bad at it"

- "Well those were with other companies with completely different employees."

- "Okay, then. You're hired!"

 

[Mack Herron]

 

[archstanton543]

 

[Jim Beankie]

Not sure why Hoyer’s last X number of games “as a starter” record is relevant to this discussion. Those games were almost all played with different franchises composed of entirely different talent levels and with entirely different coaching and offensive systems, spread out across a span of 5 years. How is that relevant to today?

If you actually look at his record and look at the two years immediately preceding the No Good Very Bad 0-11 Run (spread out across 4 different franchises), you’ll see he went 7-6 as a starter with Cleveland in 2014 and 5-4 with Houston in 2015. Somehow that doesn’t apply though.

Can't believe he was 10-6 as a starter for Cleveland smack dab in the middle of their crappiness.

Hoyer's had some bad luck - last 6 games before KC (taken out after his fumble in the RZ while it was still 6-3 KC), Hoyer as a starter lost by 4, 2, 3, 3, 2, and 3 pts, with one game seeing the offense score 39 but still losing. During his 11 game losing streak, he's thrown 59%, 6td, 8int, with 5 300+yd games. Writing all this made me feel worse about our chances, so that kinda failed.

 

[Ross12]

Because games lost are games lost. He got fired or replaced because of them.

Good thing you're not a GM (or any kind of hiring manager).

- "It says here you were fired from your job three times because you were really bad at it"

- "Well those were with other companies with completely different employees."

- "Okay, then. You're hired!"

Lol that’s not the same thing and you know it. The backup QB is not the sole person responsible for a team winning or losing.

Also, not sure why you’re presuming my profession/status? I am indeed in a role which includes hiring manager duties, I conduct interviews and job offers pretty frequently. Not that any of that is relevant to this.

 

[archstanton543]

Lol that’s not the same thing and you know it. The backup QB is not the sole person responsible for a team winning or losing.

Also, not sure why you’re presuming my profession/status? I am indeed in a role which includes hiring manager duties, I conduct interviews and job offers pretty frequently. Not that any of that is relevant to this.

Would you hire someone with a history with a recent job history like Hoyer's (I'm talking about his 0-11 starts and getting canned as a starter on several teams)? Is "I failed because I was working for different organizations with different employees" a valid counter to that failure?

Also, I'm being slightly hyperbolic to make a point. I'm not making actual assumptions about your career. I figured that was obvious.

 

[Deus Irae]

Would you hire someone with a history with a recent job history like Hoyer's (I'm talking about his 0-11 starts and getting canned as a starter on several teams)? Is "I failed because I was working for different organizations with different employees" a valid counter to that failure?

Both of those questions depend on the context. For example, with regards to the first question:

If you're 0-11 guiding the 2007 Patriots, I'm not hiring you because you're likely the one killing the team. If you're 0-11 guiding the 2008 Lions, I might be viewing things differently, because your co-workers blow and might be where the problems lie.

 

[Ross12]

Both of those questions depend on the context. For example, with regards to the first question:

If you're 0-11 guiding the 2007 Patriots, I'm not hiring you because you're likely the one killing the team. If you're 0-11 guiding the 2008 Lions, I might be viewing things differently, because your co-workers blow and might be where the problems lie.

Exactly.

These games are:
2020 NEP vs KC (we know this one well)
2019 IND vs MIA in a year where Indy went 7-9
2017 SF vs CAR, SEA, LAR, ARI, IND, WAS in a year in which the team went 6-10
2016 CHI vs GB, JAX, IND in a year where CHI went 3-13

The SF year is actually very interesting to me because while Hoyer did go 0-6 in his 6 starts, 5 of those 6 starts were lost by 3 points or less and two of them went to OT. An additional one loss in CHI was by less than 3 points, so 6 out of 11 losses were by 3 points or less. 2 of the remaining 5 were lost by 6 points or less.

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Zappe will get to play in the 4th quarter if we are down by a large amount

 

[cupofjoe1962]

Not sure why Hoyer’s last X number of games “as a starter” record is relevant to this discussion. Those games were almost all played with different franchises composed of entirely different talent levels and with entirely different coaching and offensive systems, spread out across a span of 5 years. How is that relevant to today?

If you actually look at his record and look at the two years immediately preceding the No Good Very Bad 0-11 Run (spread out across 4 different franchises), you’ll see he went 7-6 as a starter with Cleveland in 2014 and 5-4 with Houston in 2015. Somehow that doesn’t apply though.

Name a couple starting QB’s you would take Hoyer over - Week#4 2022 season

 

[NG Pats Fan]

Not sure why Hoyer’s last X number of games “as a starter” record is relevant to this discussion. Those games were almost all played with different franchises composed of entirely different talent levels and with entirely different coaching and offensive systems, spread out across a span of 5 years. How is that relevant to today?

If you actually look at his record and look at the two years immediately preceding the No Good Very Bad 0-11 Run (spread out across 4 different franchises), you’ll see he went 7-6 as a starter with Cleveland in 2014 and 5-4 with Houston in 2015. Somehow that doesn’t apply though.

So you bring up 2014 …8 years ago when he was in his physical prime ??? He’s now age 36..almost 37, and has clearly gotten worse every year as he continues to get old

 

[Deus Irae]

Name a couple starting QB’s you would take Hoyer over - Week#4 2022 season

What does that have to do either with his games as a starter before this year or whether he should play over Zappe?