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Deus Irae

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club
PatsFans.com Supporter
Fair enough, but he's lazy and undisciplined. He'd serve, I suppose, as a stopgap, but why take on a guy with stonecold zero upside?

Because it would be about a 1-2 year window of hoping to be playoff relevant while retooling. They would, obviously, have to be looking for the next "franchise" QB at the same time.


He'd be a lousy mentor for any newbie prospect as well and would, I think, actually inhibit progress of younger receivers. ("Everybody just run deep, and I'll throw it to the guy who gets furthest downfield.") Might he be better in the very short term than some younger player with at least some upside? Sure, but it's not as if we a chance in h---l of getting anywhere next year anyway.

I'm not sure where you're getting the "just run deep" stuff after last year in Pittsburgh, but the days of Roethlisberger being a bombs away QB are gone.
 

Ochmed Jones

Pro Bowl Player
Your last line is a real baffler. You propose to cherish the judgment of a man who hired Cam, then stayed with him for an entire wasted season?

In everything we say about Bill going forward, we have to make a hard and fast distinction between Bill the GOAT coach and Bill the failed, neurotic GM. Sorry fanboys, that's how it is. When you conjure some awareness of the facts, you'll understand.

We may or may not ever know the full extent and terms of the deal bb cut with newton when bb signed him,

but the way I see it, one of two things happened to make that deal happen:

1.) bb promised newton the opportunity for a full 16 game schedule.

2.) something went south in stidham’s development that caused bb to lose faith in stidham. Hence the reason he stuck with newton. And when newton was out with the virus, why bb started hoyer,
 

mgteich

PatsFans.com Veteran
PatsFans.com Supporter
.
If we went on the assumption (and it is fair) you have stated, then why don't we just keep Cam because he is cheap (and still should be) and Draft a QB and keep Cam as back up?
.
Cam is no longer good enough to be a backup, and start this year while the rookie learns/
 

ctpatsfan77

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
2.) something went south in stidham’s development that caused bb to lose faith in stidham. Hence the reason he stuck with newton. And when newton was out with the virus, why bb started hoyer,
That was about timing more than anything else. Cam was diagnosed the Friday before the game, and the team couldn't practice before the game. Hoyer was QB2 at that point, Stidham QB3. That meant Stidham basically had no practice that week.

If the timing had been different (say, Cam gets diagnosed Monday and Stidham gets to practice Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday), Stidham might have been able to play.
 

RIpats88

In the Starting Line-Up
Cam is no longer good enough to be a backup, and start this year while the rookie learns/

I think cam newton could retire honestly if he doesn't get a starting job somewhere. I do wonder if the shoulder surgeries zapped him of arm strength.

Would explain how early in the season he looked fine throwing the ball and then his mechanics slowly eroded.
 

p8ryts

In the Starting Line-Up
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Cousin,
Nice leisurely Saturday breakfast of a cheese omelette with crisp bacon (had to share some bacon pieces with my dogs and cat), pan toasted blueberry/raspberry bread, coffee and orange juice.
Some might giggle at the thought of a QB like Minshew. . Here are some facts.

1-He played for a crappy Team who won one game this year. Still had decent numbers. Double the TDs of Cam in less games.
2-He's only 24
3-He was a 6th round Draft pick.....Oh, the irony!!!!
4-He started only eight games (one more played) this year with a crap Team and had reasonable stats. He had 2259 yards, 6.9 yards per throw, 66.1% completion rate, 16 TDs versus 5 INT. and a 95.9 QB rating. Break that dowm to a 16 game schedule even with a terrible Jags Team and the kid throws for over 4,000 yards, his TDs would be almost 29 versus 8 INT,(would we take that here?) He actually had a better completion record than TB12 with all his star receivers (TB wa 65.7%)
5-His rookie year in 14 games 2019 season ... throwing for 21 TDs and 3,200 yards and winning some impressive games as a rookie.
6-He ran for his life and has 27 sacks in his 8 GS
7-He's got a log on his shoulder, not a chip
8-He is bigger than Brees, Murray, Tua, Hurts and Wilson at 6'1" and 225
9-He can run. In two years he has had almost 500 yards rushing
10-In only 23 starts he has had 4 game winning drives including beating the playoff bound Colts this year in the only game the Jags won.He threw for 3 TDs.
11-With Lawrence the pick an Urban Meyer's regime, I believe Minshew is tradable and Meyer will help buddy BB
12-He will be cheap against the CAP
13-Now Draft a rookie QB
14-He has a New England last name
15-TB was an untouchable. This kid you could have a beer with. His BFF hear might be JE.
16-He's got the IDGAF, cover of the Rolling Stone look unlike GQ Tom Brady. BB sons will probably like him. He has the " I wouldn't want him going out with my Daughter " vibe.

Minshew’s teammates love him. That Gardner Minshew you see in interviews and commercials is the same guy his teammates know on the field, in the locker room and when it’s game time.“He has the look, he has the swag, he has the arm and he has the plays to make—to be who I consider a great quarterback in the NFL."

“There’s time to have some fun. He’s a fun guy to hang around with, he’s a funny guy, entertaining,” Jaguars offensive coordinator Jay Gruden said this week about working with Minshew. “But for the most part, when it’s business, it’s business and he takes good notes, he studies the game, he spits out the plays in the huddle, which quarterbacks have to do It’s exciting to work with him because guys that are aware of how necessary it is to prepare and the guys that do prepare, it’s fun to watch them and develop.”

Didn’t it make you laugh when at the Super Bowl last year, Minshew said on radio row, “It's been great, I think I kinda found my people in Jacksonville you know, just the right amount of white-trashiness for me," he said. "So we're having a great time down there and lovin' it."

Clearly he’s not taking himself too seriously and neither do we.

Just this week NFL analyst Nate Burleson said, “I want to be in the huddle with this guy. Heck, I want to be in a street fight with this guy.”

Gardner Minshew
has been counted out over & over again. BUT he has traits you can’t measure & 1 of them is a work ethic that is relentless (FAMILIAR?).




THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT THIS MOVE THAT MAKES SENSE.

Now...real quick.....Pick one: Mariota, Trubisky , Winston, Cam or this guy? (Jimme G and Watson are not happening. Big Ben might be too complicated)

Uncle Rico to the Pats




Thoughts?
DW Toys
Sold, I'll buy.
 

NashuaPats

In the Starting Line-Up
Here's Weis and June Jones praising Mac Jones.


I could see Belichick having a similar opinion.
 

zimmy

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
I feel like our best strategy is to trade a mid round pick for a starter before free agency opens - someone along the lines of Mariota or Minshew - who have a salary that wouldn't preclude you from adding another option later. Then see what turns up in the draft. If SF find a QB then, I'd still be interested in trading for Jimmy on draft weekend - have an open competition in camp, you might even be able to trade Mariota away again if needed. I, unlike a lot of posters, also have interest in Mac Jones. He reminds me of Matt Ryan, and I think can be a decent player in the NFL, so I'm not against taking him in the 1st round personally.
 

UGAPatsfan

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
Here's Weis and June Jones praising Mac Jones.


I could see Belichick having a similar opinion.
Wies' comments actually piqued my interest. His opinion is certainly relevant
 

DW Toys

In the Starting Line-Up
He'd be a bridge guy who would likely get you to the playoffs, if the surrounding moves weren't disastrous.
Cousin,
Relaxing on this Sunday afternoon after a breakfast of our traditional Finnish Pancake and syrup, Jimmie Dean sausage patties, Raspberry/Blueberry coffee bread with a touch of syrup to dip in , coffee and orange juice.

Last year when we finally had to settle on Cam, the posters were up in arms, ...........and then like magic, most said alright let's see what he can do. Well as a passer he was not TB12. Overlooked was the fact that he produced 22 TDs (12 rush, i reception and 9 passing). No excuses, his passing rots. But was it no OTAs and practice....or he just does rot.

He had more TDs (if combined) than Goff, Bridgewater, Trubiski, Wentz and Daniel Jones, and was right behind Rivers.
Did you know that Cam and Lamar Jackson had the exact same amount of competitions in 2020? Did you know Jackson had only 100 yards more? Did you know Cam had a better completion percentage than Jackson? Jackson had more interceptions than Cam. Cam had 5 more rushing TDs.

Would we take Jackson as our QB? Yes.

Would I want Cam back as our starter? Not really but the 2020 numbers were odd. I also heard than Cam had the highest completion percentage over 20 yard plays? What?

Win and the Fans come around.

My point is we all want to "cancel" (the newest coolist form of unflattering commentary in this new crap culture) Big Ben for being a rapist, yet politicians who run our country are given a free pass on repugnant things they have done.

Was Big Ben a shady character 15 years ago? Probably. You have a list of Patriot players or management who you would not want your daughter to date. I am not defending any of them. Ray Lewis might have killed somebody, the NFL Network crew, Darren Sharper, Farve, Ray Rice...... I can go on......then there is Aaron Hernandez.
Wait........... no one on the Pats nor his Florida Coach Meyer knew one thing about Hernandez? Raise your hand if you believe that.

Let's get back to football.

The Rooney's (supposedly the cream of the crop in NFL families) had to walk a fine line with Ben. He brought them two Superbowl's and seemed to mellow out. So this year if BB sees a chance that Big Ben (younger than TB12) wants to play a few more, I think the Fans and the Posters will embrace him if he can show he still has Wins left. It will help the legacy of Josh to build back his offensive acumen, A winning record and back to the playoffs will be the elixir BB wants and I believe a chip on Big Ben's shoulder would bring us back to the playoffs. Two years with an option for three.....than BB and Bib Ben can sail off together. Talk about odd-fellows, but BB has always respected Ben's game.

A few wins and the Pat Fans will get behind this deal..

DW Toys
 

Deus Irae

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club
PatsFans.com Supporter
Cousin,
Relaxing on this Sunday afternoon after a breakfast of our traditional Finnish Pancake and syrup, Jimmie Dean sausage patties, Raspberry/Blueberry coffee bread with a touch of syrup to dip in , coffee and orange juice.

Last year when we finally had to settle on Cam, the posters were up in arms, ...........and then like magic, most said alright let's see what he can do. Well as a passer he was not TB12. Overlooked was the fact that he produced 22 TDs (12 rush, i reception and 9 passing). No excuses, his passing rots. But was it no OTAs and practice....or he just does rot.

He had more TDs (if combined) than Goff, Bridgewater, Trubiski, Wentz and Daniel Jones, and was right behind Rivers.
Did you know that Cam and Lamar Jackson had the exact same amount of competitions in 2020? Did you know Jackson had only 100 yards more? Did you know Cam had a better completion percentage than Jackson? Jackson had more interceptions than Cam. Cam had 5 more rushing TDs.

Would we take Jackson as our QB? Yes.

Would I want Cam back as our starter? Not really but the 2020 numbers were odd. I also heard than Cam had the highest completion percentage over 20 yard plays? What?

Win and the Fans come around.

My point is we all want to "cancel" (the newest coolist form of unflattering commentary in this new crap culture) Big Ben for being a rapist, yet politicians who run our country are given a free pass on repugnant things they have done.

Was Big Ben a shady character 15 years ago? Probably. You have a list of Patriot players or management who you would not want your daughter to date. I am not defending any of them. Ray Lewis might have killed somebody, the NFL Network crew, Darren Sharper, Farve, Ray Rice...... I can go on......then there is Aaron Hernandez.
Wait........... no one on the Pats nor his Florida Coach Meyer knew one thing about Hernandez? Raise your hand if you believe that.

Let's get back to football.

The Rooney's (supposedly the cream of the crop in NFL families) had to walk a fine line with Ben. He brought them two Superbowl's and seemed to mellow out. So this year if BB sees a chance that Big Ben (younger than TB12) wants to play a few more, I think the Fans and the Posters will embrace him if he can show he still has Wins left. It will help the legacy of Josh to build back his offensive acumen, A winning record and back to the playoffs will be the elixir BB wants and I believe a chip on Big Ben's shoulder would bring us back to the playoffs. Two years with an option for three.....than BB and Bib Ben can sail off together. Talk about odd-fellows, but BB has always respected Ben's game.

A few wins and the Pat Fans will get behind this deal..

DW Toys
 

PatsFanInVa

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Cousin,
Relaxing on this Sunday afternoon after a breakfast of our traditional Finnish Pancake and syrup, Jimmie Dean sausage patties, Raspberry/Blueberry coffee bread with a touch of syrup to dip in , coffee and orange juice.

Last year when we finally had to settle on Cam, the posters were up in arms, ...........and then like magic, most said alright let's see what he can do. Well as a passer he was not TB12. Overlooked was the fact that he produced 22 TDs (12 rush, i reception and 9 passing). No excuses, his passing rots. But was it no OTAs and practice....or he just does rot.

He had more TDs (if combined) than Goff, Bridgewater, Trubiski, Wentz and Daniel Jones, and was right behind Rivers.
Did you know that Cam and Lamar Jackson had the exact same amount of competitions in 2020? Did you know Jackson had only 100 yards more? Did you know Cam had a better completion percentage than Jackson? Jackson had more interceptions than Cam. Cam had 5 more rushing TDs.

Would we take Jackson as our QB? Yes.

Would I want Cam back as our starter? Not really but the 2020 numbers were odd. I also heard than Cam had the highest completion percentage over 20 yard plays? What?

Win and the Fans come around.

My point is we all want to "cancel" (the newest coolist form of unflattering commentary in this new crap culture) Big Ben for being a rapist, yet politicians who run our country are given a free pass on repugnant things they have done.

Was Big Ben a shady character 15 years ago? Probably. You have a list of Patriot players or management who you would not want your daughter to date. I am not defending any of them. Ray Lewis might have killed somebody, the NFL Network crew, Darren Sharper, Farve, Ray Rice...... I can go on......then there is Aaron Hernandez.
Wait........... no one on the Pats nor his Florida Coach Meyer knew one thing about Hernandez? Raise your hand if you believe that.

Let's get back to football.

The Rooney's (supposedly the cream of the crop in NFL families) had to walk a fine line with Ben. He brought them two Superbowl's and seemed to mellow out. So this year if BB sees a chance that Big Ben (younger than TB12) wants to play a few more, I think the Fans and the Posters will embrace him if he can show he still has Wins left. It will help the legacy of Josh to build back his offensive acumen, A winning record and back to the playoffs will be the elixir BB wants and I believe a chip on Big Ben's shoulder would bring us back to the playoffs. Two years with an option for three.....than BB and Bib Ben can sail off together. Talk about odd-fellows, but BB has always respected Ben's game.

A few wins and the Pat Fans will get behind this deal..

DW Toys
Cousin,

This Sunday I lunched on a grilled chicken breast with broccoli and green bean sides, and Mrs. P had fish and chips with an extra side of garlic potatoes, from Applebees. Pleasantries accomplished, Picard vs. Skywalker style:

Cam passed for 8 TDs to Patriots. You don't get to count pick 6s in passing production numbers, if that's how you got him to 9. There are other players who can run for TDs. They're called running backs, and we had a good batch of them last year (and usually do.) Total TD production might get you to "Well, maybe BB sees something we don't about Cam 2021." I mean, I will instantly and provisionally believe and re-use the total TD argument, if he goes with Cam again. It is, however, a cringeworthy thought.

Your note on Lamar Jackson only makes me go "Jackson was that bad?" not "Oh, Cam must be okay." Then I realized you're combining rush and pass TDs. 26 through the air for Jackson. 7 on the ground, regular season. Total, 33.


But wait! No, you were comparing his number of completions... so okay, you were honest here but changing the yardstick throughout the post to arrive at fun facts, but not really consistent comparisons... And you're good enough at this that you know that, just pointing it out :D

I have one big beef with combining run and pass TDs.

If, as a QB, you're bad at rushing for TDs, you can easily and with consistently good results hand the ball off to a dedicated specialist at running the ball, the aforementioned running back.

If, as a QB, you're bad at passing for TDs, it is very unlikely to be a good strategy to hand the ball off to a running back regularly to fulfill the passing function. I mean, if anybody would do it just to be contrary, it's Belichick, but I don't quite get why you call the guy doing it a "quarterback."

Your point's taken, that it's not so much he can gain yards on designed runs, it's that teams will think he might pass the ball and therefore he can run better on them, etc. Okay. I just think the passing end of that equation needs to be much more effective to justify the combined TD stat you leaned on in part of this post..

But okay, like you, if the Pats actually do the Cam thing to us again.... I will cross my fingers and root for him. "Maybe he's picking up the system and growing in his 2nd year?"

I just reallllly hope they go in the direction of a competent quarterback instead :D
 

203Pat

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Anyone who watched Cam last year and is talking themselves into being okay with him again this year is delusional. Bill is mailing it in if Cam is the starter week one.
 

skinnydog

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
We may or may not ever know the full extent and terms of the deal bb cut with newton when bb signed him,

but the way I see it, one of two things happened to make that deal happen:

1.) bb promised newton the opportunity for a full 16 game schedule.

2.) something went south in stidham’s development that caused bb to lose faith in stidham. Hence the reason he stuck with newton. And when newton was out with the virus, why bb started hoyer,
I can;t imagine BB ever making such a promise (#1) to any player let alone one who had never played for him before. As to #2, i think it is pretty obviousl BB was not happy with Stidham's progress.
 

203Pat

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I can;t imagine BB ever making such a promise (#1) to any player let alone one who had never played for him before. As to #2, i think it is pretty obviousl BB was not happy with Stidham's progress.
I think there’s a very solid chance Bill told Cam it’s your job as long as your healthy in return for Cam signing for peanuts.
 

lancerman

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I think there’s a very solid chance Bill told Cam it’s your job as long as your healthy in return for Cam signing for peanuts.
I don't. I think he paid Cam far too little for that to ever be any type of requirement if he thought he had a better option. I think way too many people are trying to manufacture a scenario where Cam didn't happen to be the best option we had at QB in yet started because of some hidden deal Bill would supposedly make. Bill benched Cam at points when he had bad games. There is almost no chance Bill would have cared to start him for any reason besides he thought he was better than the other guys available.

We let Brady go and got caught with our pants down and Cam just happened to be there and it became clear to the coaches that Cam exposed how bad Hoyer and Stidham were as alternatives and therefore he retained the job. Doesn't mean you can't do better than him, but we didn't last year.

Right now we are in no different a position than last year. We won't know what the best move is until we either draft or pick someone up in a trade.
 

mgteich

PatsFans.com Veteran
PatsFans.com Supporter
.

Right now we are in no different a position than last year. We won't know what the best move is until we either draft or pick someone up in a trade.
We may never know the best move is.

However, the situation is much different than last year.

1) Bill is in mid-Feb and is actively evaluating trades, and signing free agents.

2) There is no GOAT who might come back.

3) There is a lot of cap room.

4) There is sufficient draft capital to draft a QB in the top 10, if we wish.

As most of us have been saying
A) Bill should secure a veteran
B) Bill should draft a QB or two

Obviously, the situation in the draft will depend on which QB is chosen. If our QB for the next 5 years is secured, we need a backup. If a 2-3 bridge is chosen, then we need a top QB and possibly another in 2022.
===========================
IT IS POSSIBLE
that Bill would consider Cam good enough to be the inexpensive bridge. The additional $10M-$15M could be used to secure veterans to improve the team, instead of the first two draft choices.
 

Ice_Ice_Brady

Team Bill's Worst Nightmare
NFL teams are worth billions of dollars. Quarterbacks are the biggest investment factor and are paid millions upon being drafted. Teams bring in specialists all the time, change offensive schemes, bring in new coordinators, hire consultants, and pay for better protection and better weapons.

Point being: these “diamond in the rough” QBs are really hard to find and barely even exist.

Some of the “but, we’re smarter than them, and we’ll design a better scheme and the culture here...” takes ignore reality. These teams are generally not dumb and not inflexible. They tried designing the perfect cast and environment for guys like Trubisky, Mariota, Winston, etc. They tried again. They invested a lot of resources and in lots of cases, even brought in an entirely new staff.

Last year we heard about how Josh McDaniels was a big brain who would design the perfect offense for Newton’s strengths. Did some of you think the Panthers were total morons and didn’t already have an offense based around that for years? Same with the sentiment that “Hoyer threw a bunch of picks in Cleveland because they’re dysfunctional, but he’ll just be asked to run the system here and not make mistakes.” It doesn’t work like that; you’ve just thought it did because a great quarterback has always made it look easy.

The Patriots are a well run organization, but they don’t have a magic wand.
 
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