Wells Report on Dolphins locker room: Incognito, others in 'pattern of harrassment'

[Deus Irae]

Yeah, I've been there, and it is about being dominated in the group. Ceding control of where the line is drawn.

Its called going along to get along...the first time people make those jokes, it hurts, but you want to get along so you laugh.....and then you make a joke...and it is all okay....but, really it is about you giving up your respect.

Yeah, it's not about what you claim, at all. Well, let me rephrase:

It's often not about what you claim, at all, and I know this from decades of personal experience.

To put it a third way, Don Rickles has made a comfortable living using all sorts of low brow humor, and the world did not end as a result of it, nor were people shelling out the bucks to go to his shows just because they thought they had to in order to get along.

 

[Snake Eyes]

And the fact that most slaves didn't attempt to escape means they enjoyed the job security.

Comparing an NFL locker room to a slave plantation completely invalidates your argument. Sorry, but if you can't understand the difference I'm not going to bother trying to explain it to you.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I know, stuff like this used to be totally cool until we elected a black president.

Have you played football, at the high school level or beyond? I have, and this kind of smack-talk is actually completely normal.

If you haven't done it you won't understand.

 

[BradyManny]

Given that there are several people disagreeing with your take even here, and given that the initial reaction the last time was to bash Incognito only to pull back, it's pretty clear that what you consider to be true isn't universally believed.

Could care less if its universally believed. Doesn't change whether its correct or not.

is an absolute load of horse manure.

Are you serious? Please point me to a given society, in a given year or decade you would rather go back to. Have fun foregoing all the advancements in science, civil rights, health, medicine, technology, etc.

 

[Brock Samson]

Players totally loved this guy!

During our interviews, teammates referred to Incognito using such terms as “smart mouth,” “inappropriate,” “crazy,” “vulgar” and “*******.” ... Several teammates referred to his more outrageous behavior as “Richie being Richie.” One player, whom we found credible, said that Incognito was “a good player, but he is kind of a disease; he divides a locker room. . . .[Incognito] is the kind of guy who has to be the alpha male.” This player went on to say that Incognito “feels like he has to make fun of the younger players,” and “people join in with him so he doesn’t make fun of them.” Nearly all of the players with whom we spoke appeared to tolerate Incognito’s more colorful and aggressive behavior, even if they did not embrace it.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Maybe if Miami players treated each other with respect, they would win more than 8 games and not fade at the end of the season.

Maybe if Martin wasn’t bullied by locker room smack talk he wouldn’t have been bullied by opposing players on the field.

 

[DaBruinz]

The fact that everyone was cool with Incognito's behavior means that the locker room wasn't toxic. It's actually a sign of closeness and trust when you can joke with people about what would normally be considered inappropriate, this is why guys refer to one another in derogatory terms when they're friends.

As far as dividing the locker room goes, the other players didn't have a problem with Martin, they treated him like they treated everyone else, he had the problem with them.

That's just it. Everyone WASN'T cool with Incognito's behavior. You clearly missed the part when it crossed the line into bullying. And it wasn't just Martin that was bullied and it wasn't just Incognito who participated.

Furthermore, Incognito and the others refused to stop when Martin asked them to. In fact, it got worse. That is something you seem to have missed. When one person is the brunt of the Jokes with going so far as to talk about his family despite him asking you otherwise, then it's bullying. And that is what happened..

 

[BradyManny]

Of course he tells them don't overdo it on the rookies, but if I still see shaved heads every camp. Again, degrees.

Yes, degrees. I shouldn't have to tell you that there is a big difference between the two situations, and that the degrees are far apart.

 

[Deus Irae]

...Are you serious? Please point me to a given society, in a given year or decade you would rather go back to. Have fun foregoing all the advancements in science, civil rights, health, medicine, technology, etc.

Science is not society. Neither is health, medicine or technology. Civil rights both is, and is not, depending on what aspect(s) you're looking at.

 

[Ring 6]

I would say that standing up and not allowing nonsense to occur is a lot harder than shutting your mouth and being a whipping boy for insults about ones family. Would you not agree?

A lot of people go along to get along....If people did not do that, I suspect the nonsense would stop.

So, stop being a sissy and stand up for yourself and your family. Take the hard road, take the road of a man, and tell people that if they are going to talk about your sister like that you are going to snap their neck and shiznit down their throat.

I guess you would just laugh and giggle because you want to be part of the group...haha....weak arse.

When people talk to you like that, they are exerting their dominance over you. I don't know about you, but I am an alpha. I do not stand for nonsense.

My viewpoint is that you can stand up to it (Martin chose not to) or laugh and walk away (Martin chose to) and either is fine, but the real problem is being unable to take a joke.
This is a debatable as to whether I have the right to make a joke if you find it unacceptable, if such a joke is common in society.
I'm gonna F your sister is common in society, especially among that demographic, so i think it should not be considered the same as saying it in a board meeting at Chase manhattan.

 

[DaBruinz]

By all reports, the locker room wasn't toxic until Martin threw a hissy fit about it and reporters invaded like a bunch of locusts. If you don't believe that the Pats bust one another's balls in a similar fashion behind closed doors, then I'm not sure what to tell you. It's a locker room. Immature and sick senses of humor run rampant. This is an excellent example.

And, again, African American teammates by and large publicly BACKED Incognito. Not Martin. What say you about that?

You do realize that the person who made the statement about Incognito was actually one of the participants in the bullying, yes?

Richie Incognito Considered 'Honorary Black Man,' Not Racist By Dolphins Teammates: REPORTS

Citing an off-camera conversation with Dolphins center Mike Pouncey, Hall of Fame wide receiver and ESPN analyst Cris Carter reported on Wednesday that players in the Miami locker room do not consider Incognito, who is white, to be racist despite him reportedly referring to Martin, who is bi-racial, as a "half n----- piece of (expletive)" in a voicemail.

"They don't feel as if he's a racist, they don't feel as if he picked on Jonathan repeatedly and bullied him, but if they could do it all over again there would be situations that they might change but they’re very, very comfortable with Richie,”

Citing a player who was fingered as part of the bullying doesn't help the credibility of your argument.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes, degrees. I shouldn't have to tell you that there is a big difference between the two situations, and that the degrees are far apart.

You shouldn't because you have absolutely no idea.
if Martin had been able to take it, you would never know this happened.
To pretend you know what happens in the Patriots lockerroom is silly.

 

[Brock Samson]

The trainer obviously likes being harassed because he won't stand up and say it bothered him or anything. It's not like he was worried about losing his job.

We asked the Assistant Trainer about these matters. He said he was not comfortable answering questions on this topic and implied that he could not be candid with us because he was concerned about losing the trust of the players, which he felt would compromise his ability to perform his job.

When pressed, the Assistant Trainer denied that he was bothered by his treatment—a view that is undercut by a text message that he sent Martin the day he left the team: “Hey JM I understand how [y]ou feel man… They are relentless sometime…. Some day I wanna do exactly what you did today … Just let me know you are doing alright. I am worried about you….” (emphasis added and ellipses in original).

It's astonishing that anybody can defend this, especially with the tired "they didn't say anything so it's OK" excuse.

 

[DarrylS]

Re: OT: Ted Wells report.. Not just Incognito who was bullying

The comments about the trainer are troubling, as he is just a bystander in this process.. apparently they took delight in their comments about his oriental heritage...

In the past Zolak has been somewhat dismissive of this, however his comments this morning seemed to intimate that what Incognito, Pouncey and Jerry did were over the line. This seems to be a bit more than locker room banter and "boys being boys".

 

[ThatllMoveTheChains!!!]

Comparing an NFL locker room to a slave plantation completely invalidates your argument. Sorry, but if you can't understand the difference I'm not going to bother trying to explain it to you.

It's clearly a joke. Sadly it isn't the most ridiculous statement in this thread and many that top it are actually serious.

 

[DaBruinz]

Nah, I'd rather have that behavior than the false veneer of so-called civilization worn by the hypocrites. Low brow humor is supposed to be just that. Americans used to be mature enough to grasp that.

What needs to change is that the sissyfication of the west needs to be reversed.

Low brow humor is one thing. Leaving racist messages on cell phones and home phones that talk about raping a guy's sister and mother is totally different. It would seem you are clueless to the distinction.

 

[BradyManny]

Who says it did, will or has?
Again to whatever degree, this is who NFL players are. You are acting as if this is the only time anything like this ever happened and the wheels came off, when in reality the Dolphins had a good season compared to last year.

They got destroyed in the last two games to crappy teams. And an 8-8 record is nothing to write home about given the investments they made in the offseason. And they lost 2 offensive linemen in the process.

I think we're all certain a lot of low-brow humor goes on inside locker rooms, and 99% of it goes without any issue. The point you and others are missing is that it clearly was bothering a player, clearly was a distraction, and had legitimate ramifications on their team (Martin leaving, Incognito suspended). There is no arguing those points.

Some people are way too caught up in making this debate about political correctness to face facts. We all agree that an NFL locker room is going to have its fair share of inappropriate stuff. Why do we have to talk about the "line" being crossed as if its some completely intangible thing. The line was obviously crossed when it ended up that the Dolphins lost 40% of their offensive line.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I don't like the fact that NFL players are generally stupid and immature. I would prefer that they all be fine, upstanding citizens. But wishing for it doesn't make it true, and they are what they are. Until/unless teams start drafting and signing players based on their morals and maturity, we're unlikely to see the needle move too much in that regard.

And that's not excusing everything that's in this report. The way that they treated that Japanese trainer was pretty deplorable, and it's a sign of weak and ineffectual leadership (and a ****ty locker room) that it was allowed to go on. But I think we need to draw a line between "ball busting" and "so clearly bulldozing past 'the line' that there's no question whatsoever that it was crossed". The Dolphins did the latter, but that doesn't make the former uniformly bad in all circumstances.

You can have one without the other. I'd be willing to bet my life's savings that ball-busting of the same nature that Martin endured--although granted, to a much lesser degree--happens in the Patriots' locker room. I don't even really care. Look at the rookie hazing; does that strike anyone as highbrow? Of course not, but if anything it's a team-building activity. As long as it's kept in check, the low-brow ball-busting culture can actually build unity and increase morale. Put a bunch of macho guys in a closed environment and a culture of lowbrow, largely offensive humor is going to result. As long as there's leadership--both from the coaches and the captains--to ensure that it doesn't spiral too far out of hand, it's not even really a bad thing. It just is what it is.

But if you don't have a strong leadership presence on the team, it will typically degenerate into malicious bull**** that is destructive to the team. This is especially true if the team sucks and is getting its ass handed to it regularly on the field.

In the Dolphins' case, their locker room culture clearly got out of hand, devolved into malicious locker room politics, and played a major role in torpedoing their season. That's what can happen when you have a bunch of ****ty character guys, a weak coach, a weak quarterback, and nobody to police the locker room. Philbin should have been fired for sucking so badly at managing the locker room, and the next coach probably should have made a point of picking an entirely new set of captains. Doesn't mean that low-brow humor and ball-busting are universally bad, though.

 

[Snake Eyes]

That's just it. Everyone WASN'T cool with Incognito's behavior. You clearly missed the part when it crossed the line into bullying. And it wasn't just Martin that was bullied and it wasn't just Incognito who participated.

Furthermore, Incognito and the others refused to stop when Martin asked them to. In fact, it got worse. That is something you seem to have missed. When one person is the brunt of the Jokes with going so far as to talk about his family despite him asking you otherwise, then it's bullying. And that is what happened..

It doesn't seem they did anything to stop him, if some people think that he's crossing the line you confront that person about it, you don't go outside the group and cry.

 

[Ring 6]

You do realize that the person who made the statement about Incognito was actually one of the participants in the bullying, yes?

Richie Incognito Considered 'Honorary Black Man,' Not Racist By Dolphins Teammates: REPORTS



Citing a player who was fingered as part of the bullying doesn't help the credibility of your argument.

The report also stated the racism was not a central part of the issue, and that Martin could only remember Incognito using the N word twice, once in the infamous text and once verbally.