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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Soul_Survivor88, May 3, 2016.

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  1. The Gr8est

    The Gr8est Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Well, we KNOW the REAL reason the picks were taken don't we?
     
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  2. Ivan

    Ivan Hall of Fame Poster

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    Nothing fair or balanced about it, you are taking the league's assumptions and lies at face value and then playing legalese with them. Had the league cared about air pressure in football's there never would have been an issue, in truth they cared so little they went almost 100 years before realizing that cold weather effects air pressure in football's. They contrived a scandal and worked from that point to try and prove it, when they couldn't they fabricated a conviction by having the Scumbag commissioner play judge, jury, and executioner and then lied repeatedly to the courts to get them to play along. It's one of the most disgusting abuses of power I have ever seen. You can buy into it all you want but anyone with any sense of fairness and decency would dismiss it for the garbage it is
     
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  3. Tony2046

    Tony2046 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter Weekly NFL Picks Winner

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    The Neil Tyson tweet along with others who had used gauge rather than absolute did a lot of damage. Many media outlets touted that the temperature would have had to have been -13 deg F to support the deflated by weather argument. Truly unfortunate.
     
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  4. Tony2046

    Tony2046 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter Weekly NFL Picks Winner

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    @letekro - If we take the Well's report at face value we can at least conclude that if McNally did take the balls into the bathroom for the purpose of deflation it was not to deflate them by 2 psi to gain a competitive advantage as originally reported and, IMO, it was such a minimal amount that you woul have to wonder why he would bother at all. I don't think it makes sense.

    First the Tweets: (I've posted them here in chronological order. The Well's report does not for reasons you can assume on your own.)

    Notice the date. May 9th 2014. It occurred 4 months before the 2015 season began. I do understand how this raises suspicion.

    Page 75
    upload_2016-5-7_12-8-51.png

    Next set of Tweets: Brady is upset because of overinflation during/after a Jets home game. JJ and McNally's discussion demonstrates that Brady expect the footballs at a certain level of inflation and definitely not at 16 psi. So we appear to have circumstantial evidence that the "deflator" may have been influenced by Brady to deflate the balls to a certain level. (Because of Brady's reaction they joke around about blowing them up to the size of watermelons etc..)

    Page 77
    upload_2016-5-7_12-11-29.png

    PAGE 86 (After explaining how damning the ^ above tweets and others were we arrive to this tweet which is chronologically 9 pages later.)

    Wait! What? All that and "they were supposed to be 13 psi" is what we end up with?
    upload_2016-5-7_12-18-21.png


    Next the Exponent attachment. The DNA. Which, by the way, is equally deceptive in its presentation.

    Page 7 of the Exponent attachment. Average reading of all the footballs. (Logo gauge and non-logo gauge) Of course we know that Exponent determines that Walt misremembered which gauge he used.
    upload_2016-5-7_12-30-7.png

    Page 39 of the Exponent attachment.
    upload_2016-5-7_12-34-42.png

    Looking at the first chart Exponent states that the average pressure drop was either 1.39 or 1.01 depending on which gauge was used.

    Looking at the second chart Exponent states that the pressure drop of a football inflated in a 70 degree room would have been 1.13 psi. (Exponent believes the starting temp was between 67-71 deg F)

    You can argue timelines (how long each team's balls had to acclimate to room temp etc..) and argue which gauge was used etc... but the end result will either be a miniscule amount of air pressure lost or nothing lost at all.

    So either McNally went to the bathroom to release an average of 0.26 psi from the footballs, went into the bathroom to check that the balls were still at 12.5 and not 16 as in the Jets game or he went in there to take a leak.

    Four Games for what?? I'm pretty sure that's why the NFL and BSPN spent months having ex players tossing around footballs discussing how they could tell that 2 psi was missing. Bull Sh....
     

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  5. Archeryaddict12

    Archeryaddict12 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    The deflation was an act of nature. Proven by laws. I don't know how much more you need unless you feel like trolling for the heck of it.
     
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  6. letekro

    letekro Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Thanks. I understand the theory. It is a basic law of physics that nobody disputes. However you cant use it to accurately predict psi if you dont know even one of the following factors:

    Starting psi
    Precisely when (down to the minute) each ball was measured
    Precisely how wet each ball was
    The precise temperature in the officials locker room

    Here, none of these variables are known. Hence the Exponent report is worthless except for the experiment part (figs 29 and 30)
     
  7. Angelpats

    Angelpats 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    The exponent report was biased but i thought it was valuable. Since we didn't have any pre recorded psi readings, the authors of the report are allowed to decide what psi to use. The referees also having remembered what gauges they used conveniently switched to fit their own data. But still with everything geared towards guilt the best they could come up with was an average of .025psi discrepancy when they accounted for the gas law. How in the world can a competent and unbiased person can pass guilt on a man over .025psi is idiotic. And whoever uses the wells report as evidence of guilt has never read it or is just trolling for selfish reasons.
     
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  8. QuantumMechanic

    QuantumMechanic Burn it all down! PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No, it is not.

    The Exponent report was a hit piece bought by the NFL to try to nail NE. The fact that the NFL's own commissioned hit job couldn't do any better than say only 0.2 PSI was unaccounted for is very valuable. Why? Because it shows that even an "analysis" biased against NE in every way says that only a pointlessly small amount of air, an amount of air well within all the error bars, an amount that would probably be impossible to accurately release from a football, and an amount that there would be no reason to release, was allegedly missing from the footballs.
     
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    Last edited: May 9, 2016
  9. letekro

    letekro Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    This is a fair point. Like a light in the wilderness. Still, Figures 29 and 30 of the Exponent Report and the significant variability in the psi of the Pats balls is somewhat compelling. I havent seen anyone explain these particular findings. Overall, I would say it is possible, though perhaps not likely, that there was a bumbling attempt in the bathroom to make sure that the balls were not overinflated. But thank you for not just mindlessly spitting the IGL at me.
     
  10. letekro

    letekro Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Thanks. Overall i agree with you. Another possibility is that he did mess around with a needle (other than his d*ck) in the bathroom just to ensure that the balls were not overinflated. Because he is a moron, he might have ended up unscientifically removing a little more from some balls than others (say .4 vs .2) which would explain the variability in the Pats balls. At any rate, even worst case, it seems they were trying to get the balls to 12.5 or so.
     
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  11. Jackson 2

    Jackson 2 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This is a crusade with you, isn't it? Care to share why?
     
  12. letekro

    letekro Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    I am no more a crusader than some others here who believe it is consistent with the evidence that something went on in the bathroom that may have been a technical violation but was really just an attempt to make sure that the balls were not overinflated. This attempt, in the hands of a bumbling fool, may have led to some balls being slightly more deflated than they should have been.

    It is also possible that nothing at all happened. I have said many times there was insufficient evidence to punish, even with a small fine. But I think the scenario above could certainly have happened, and it actually fits with the evidence.
     
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  13. Tony2046

    Tony2046 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter Weekly NFL Picks Winner

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    Exponent purchased 50 new gauges. (Page 19 Exponent attachment) The gauges used during Game day measurements were not new. If you are familiar with vacuum/pressure gauges they need to be calibrated annually especially if you are trying to railroad someone over a tenth of a psi. The chances that any of the team's gauges were reading precise pressure measurements is highly unlikely.

    The 50 gauges were tested on a known 13 psi system. Only 8 registered 13.0 psi. The readings from all 50 gauges varied from 12.55 to 13.2. Btw, these gauges are not the $800 calibrated gauges I use in my systems. These gauges are designed to get you in the ballpark.

    IOW, This is the first time the NFL made an issue of ball pressure. We do not know if Walt measured both teams balls with the same gauge or with two different gauges at different times or if he measured them at all. It is all heresay. We do not know any of the conditions in which the balls were measured. We do not know if the balls were placed in the same location or if one bag of balls sat under a heater vent while the other sat in the coldest part of the room. We do not know because no one ever cared prior to the sting op.

    upload_2016-5-7_23-28-25.png
     
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  14. aluminum seats

    aluminum seats Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Forced to choose, this is what I think happened.
     
  15. VectorPrime

    VectorPrime Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    I don't think I've ever see someone so committed to being devils advocate for such a worthless cause before.
     
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  16. Tony2046

    Tony2046 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter Weekly NFL Picks Winner

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    There are a few issues with the chart below. 1. The Colt's footballs are being used as the control to generate a conclusion. How can you do that when you know just as little about the Colt's football data as you do about the Patriots football data. 2. The wet transient line has the identical slope for both the Colts and the Pats but we both know that both set of balls were exposed to differentiating degrees of wetness.

    Stupid little side note: For wetness they sprayed each football with 48 deg F water from a water bottle. We do not know what the rain temperature was that day in Foxboro but I'll bet it was much lower. (Yes I'm guessing but so were they.) Further, their test handled each ball individually and not clustered in a bag which would affect the re acclimation periods for each individual ball.

    Question: How do you accept this data when it was built based on initial data you agree is unreliable?

    upload_2016-5-7_23-53-13.png
     
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  17. Tony2046

    Tony2046 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter Weekly NFL Picks Winner

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    Yes that is possible and I mentioned that. Was Brady trying to get a competitive advantage? No. End of story.

    And that is the conclusion that the NFL should have come to.
     
  18. Calhoun44

    Calhoun44 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So, are you saying there was no point in penalizing NE because they had no accurate data? Is that the main point you have been arguing about this whole thread? If that is your point then it makes sense to me, I often wondered this myself.
     
  19. realtime

    realtime Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    I don't think I've ever seen someone so committed to following a thread he was whining to have locked.
     
  20. VectorPrime

    VectorPrime Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    I do occasionally come in here because I foolishly hope that there is actually news being discussed. Silly me though.
     
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