Tom Brady, NFLPA Granted 14-Day Extension To File Motion For Rehearing By Second Circuit Court

[The Gr8est]

We are coming into the dead part of the news cycle for the NFL with free agency all but wound down until summer cuts and the draft done. I hope Brady's attorneys keep this going, not so much in the hopes of winning-think the defamation suit is the clearest path for that and not sure if Brady wants o walk that road-but in keeping this stink in front of everyone. The more it is talked about, the more I think the NFL looks bad and Brady and the Patriots look good.

I am surprised there has been so little outcry in the media about the extreme payment in terms of draft capital was taken from the Patriots given how the Wells report described the teams cooperation with the NFL.

Well, we KNOW the REAL reason the picks were taken don't we?

 

[Ivan]

Yeah, "patsfans" is probably not the best place to go for a fair and balanced discussion of deflategate. I was clearly being overly optimistic in thinking otherwise.

Nothing fair or balanced about it, you are taking the league's assumptions and lies at face value and then playing legalese with them. Had the league cared about air pressure in football's there never would have been an issue, in truth they cared so little they went almost 100 years before realizing that cold weather effects air pressure in football's. They contrived a scandal and worked from that point to try and prove it, when they couldn't they fabricated a conviction by having the Scumbag commissioner play judge, jury, and executioner and then lied repeatedly to the courts to get them to play along. It's one of the most disgusting abuses of power I have ever seen. You can buy into it all you want but anyone with any sense of fairness and decency would dismiss it for the garbage it is

 

[Tony2046]

I followed the science quite closely. I was one of the guys (I'm a physics professor) along with PalmBeachPatsFan (a Ph.D. Chemist) and others that made so many posts proving the physics that we got the thread exiled (as non-football related). I can absolutely assure you that the science (explaining the ball deflation) has absolutely been proven, there is no controversy, and no scientist has disputed this, there is complete consensus in the science community.

Neil deGrasse Tyson briefly tweeted his doubts, but he used gauge pressure instead of absolute pressure (an error a freshman physics student shouldn't have made) and he quickly corrected himself. The only person to cast doubt on it was "Bill the Science Guy", who isn't a scientist by any stretch of the imagination, he is a television personality (with no advanced degrees beyond B.S.), who makes a living by presenting science to kids in a funny and entertaining way, kind of like a Sesame Street character.

The Neil Tyson tweet along with others who had used gauge rather than absolute did a lot of damage. Many media outlets touted that the temperature would have had to have been -13 deg F to support the deflated by weather argument. Truly unfortunate.

 

[Tony2046]

@letekro - If we take the Well's report at face value we can at least conclude that if McNally did take the balls into the bathroom for the purpose of deflation it was not to deflate them by 2 psi to gain a competitive advantage as originally reported and, IMO, it was such a minimal amount that you woul have to wonder why he would bother at all. I don't think it makes sense.

First the Tweets: (I've posted them here in chronological order. The Well's report does not for reasons you can assume on your own.)

Notice the date. May 9th 2014. It occurred 4 months before the 2015 season began. I do understand how this raises suspicion.

Page 75


Next set of Tweets: Brady is upset because of overinflation during/after a Jets home game. JJ and McNally's discussion demonstrates that Brady expect the footballs at a certain level of inflation and definitely not at 16 psi. So we appear to have circumstantial evidence that the "deflator" may have been influenced by Brady to deflate the balls to a certain level. (Because of Brady's reaction they joke around about blowing them up to the size of watermelons etc..)

Page 77


PAGE 86 (After explaining how damning the ^ above tweets and others were we arrive to this tweet which is chronologically 9 pages later.)

Wait! What? All that and "they were supposed to be 13 psi" is what we end up with?



Next the Exponent attachment. The DNA. Which, by the way, is equally deceptive in its presentation.

Page 7 of the Exponent attachment. Average reading of all the footballs. (Logo gauge and non-logo gauge) Of course we know that Exponent determines that Walt misremembered which gauge he used.


Page 39 of the Exponent attachment.


Looking at the first chart Exponent states that the average pressure drop was either 1.39 or 1.01 depending on which gauge was used.

Looking at the second chart Exponent states that the pressure drop of a football inflated in a 70 degree room would have been 1.13 psi. (Exponent believes the starting temp was between 67-71 deg F)

You can argue timelines (how long each team's balls had to acclimate to room temp etc..) and argue which gauge was used etc... but the end result will either be a miniscule amount of air pressure lost or nothing lost at all.

So either McNally went to the bathroom to release an average of 0.26 psi from the footballs, went into the bathroom to check that the balls were still at 12.5 and not 16 as in the Jets game or he went in there to take a leak.

Four Games for what?? I'm pretty sure that's why the NFL and BSPN spent months having ex players tossing around footballs discussing how they could tell that 2 psi was missing. Bull Sh....

 

[Archeryaddict12]

Yeah, "patsfans" is probably not the best place to go for a fair and balanced discussion of deflategate. I was clearly being overly optimistic in thinking otherwise.

The deflation was an act of nature. Proven by laws. I don't know how much more you need unless you feel like trolling for the heck of it.

 

[letekro]

As a bunch of us beat to death in the old, exiled Deflategate thread and explained my numerous scientists in various places (the video by MIT Professor John Leonard that Joker just referred to is an especially good one), the amount of deflation is about what one would expect from the IGL when one fills the footballs inside a room temperature room and then the footballs are taken outside where it was colder, I think the game day temperature was 40 something F outside (and as it turns out that completely expected deflation appears to be stronger when the ball gets wet, as it was that day).

Why is that so? If I may grossly oversimplify a bit, the temperature (T) of a gas is related to its kinetic energy, and so air molecules inside the football zoom around faster at high T and slower at low T. The velocity v of each molecule gives it a momentum p=mv. When the molecules bang against the side of the football, the change of p imparts an impulse (a force time product). When you sum up the forces all of the molecules banging against a unit area of the football you get absolute pressure, P (=force per area). Thus, when you fill up the footballs inside at the warmer temperature and then bring them outside where the football (and the gas inside) cools off, the molecules zoom around slower, which decreases their average momentum, which decreases the impulse they impart when they bang against the inside of the football, which decreases the absolute pressure. Gauge pressure is the amount of absolute pressure above atmospheric pressure, so as the footballs (or your tires in winter) cool down the gauge pressure (in psi) decreases in a predicted way according to the IGL, if that didn't happen it would violate the laws of physics.

Thanks. I understand the theory. It is a basic law of physics that nobody disputes. However you cant use it to accurately predict psi if you dont know even one of the following factors:

Starting psi
Precisely when (down to the minute) each ball was measured
Precisely how wet each ball was
The precise temperature in the officials locker room

Here, none of these variables are known. Hence the Exponent report is worthless except for the experiment part (figs 29 and 30)

 

[Angelpats]

The exponent report was biased but i thought it was valuable. Since we didn't have any pre recorded psi readings, the authors of the report are allowed to decide what psi to use. The referees also having remembered what gauges they used conveniently switched to fit their own data. But still with everything geared towards guilt the best they could come up with was an average of .025psi discrepancy when they accounted for the gas law. How in the world can a competent and unbiased person can pass guilt on a man over .025psi is idiotic. And whoever uses the wells report as evidence of guilt has never read it or is just trolling for selfish reasons.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Here, none of these variables are known. Hence the Exponent report is worthless except for the experiment part (figs 29 and 30)

No, it is not.

The Exponent report was a hit piece bought by the NFL to try to nail NE. The fact that the NFL's own commissioned hit job couldn't do any better than say only 0.2 PSI was unaccounted for is very valuable. Why? Because it shows that even an "analysis" biased against NE in every way says that only a pointlessly small amount of air, an amount of air well within all the error bars, an amount that would probably be impossible to accurately release from a football, and an amount that there would be no reason to release, was allegedly missing from the footballs.

 

[letekro]

No, it is not.

The Exponent report was a hit piece bought by the NFL to try to nail NE. The fact that the NFL's own commissioned hit job couldn't do any better than say only 0.2 PSI was accounted for is very valuable. Why? Because it shows that even an "analysis" biased against NE in every way says that only a pointlessly small amount of air, an amount of air well within all the error bars, an amount that would probably be impossible to accurately release from a football, and an amount that there would be no reason to release, was allegedly missing from the footballs.

This is a fair point. Like a light in the wilderness. Still, Figures 29 and 30 of the Exponent Report and the significant variability in the psi of the Pats balls is somewhat compelling. I havent seen anyone explain these particular findings. Overall, I would say it is possible, though perhaps not likely, that there was a bumbling attempt in the bathroom to make sure that the balls were not overinflated. But thank you for not just mindlessly spitting the IGL at me.

 

[letekro]

@letekro - If we take the Well's report at face value we can at least conclude that if McNally did take the balls into the bathroom for the purpose of deflation it was not to deflate them by 2 psi to gain a competitive advantage as originally reported and, IMO, it was such a minimal amount that you woul have to wonder why he would bother at all. I don't think it makes sense.

First the Tweets: (I've posted them here in chronological order. The Well's report does not for reasons you can assume on your own.)

Notice the date. May 9th 2014. It occurred 4 months before the 2015 season began. I do understand how this raises suspicion.

Page 75
View attachment 12889

Next set of Tweets: Brady is upset because of overinflation during/after a Jets home game. JJ and McNally's discussion demonstrates that Brady expect the footballs at a certain level of inflation and definitely not at 16 psi. So we appear to have circumstantial evidence that the "deflator" may have been influenced by Brady to deflate the balls to a certain level. (Because of Brady's reaction they joke around about blowing them up to the size of watermelons etc..)

Page 77
View attachment 12890

PAGE 86 (After explaining how damning the ^ above tweets and others were we arrive to this tweet which is chronologically 9 pages later.)

Wait! What? All that and "they were supposed to be 13 psi" is what we end up with?
View attachment 12892


Next the Exponent attachment. The DNA. Which, by the way, is equally deceptive in its presentation.

Page 7 of the Exponent attachment. Average reading of all the footballs. (Logo gauge and non-logo gauge) Of course we know that Exponent determines that Walt misremembered which gauge he used.
View attachment 12893

Page 39 of the Exponent attachment.
View attachment 12894

Looking at the first chart Exponent states that the average pressure drop was either 1.39 or 1.01 depending on which gauge was used.

Looking at the second chart Exponent states that the pressure drop of a football inflated in a 70 degree room would have been 1.13 psi. (Exponent believes the starting temp was between 67-71 deg F)

You can argue timelines (how long each team's balls had to acclimate to room temp etc..) and argue which gauge was used etc... but the end result will either be a miniscule amount of air pressure lost or nothing lost at all.

So either McNally went to the bathroom to release an average of 0.26 psi from the footballs, went into the bathroom to check that the balls were still at 12.5 and not 16 as in the Jets game or he went in there to take a leak.

Four Games for what?? I'm pretty sure that's why the NFL and BSPN spent months having ex players tossing around footballs discussing how they could tell that 2 psi was missing. Bull Sh....

Thanks. Overall i agree with you. Another possibility is that he did mess around with a needle (other than his d*ck) in the bathroom just to ensure that the balls were not overinflated. Because he is a moron, he might have ended up unscientifically removing a little more from some balls than others (say .4 vs .2) which would explain the variability in the Pats balls. At any rate, even worst case, it seems they were trying to get the balls to 12.5 or so.

 

[Jackson 2]

Thanks. Overall i agree with you. Another possibility is that he did mess around with a needle (other than his d*ck) in the bathroom just to ensure that the balls were not overinflated. Because he is a moron, he might have ended up unscientifically removing a little more from some balls than others (say .4 vs .2) which would explain the variability in the Pats balls. At any rate, even worst case, it seems they were trying to get the balls to 12.5 or so.

This is a crusade with you, isn't it? Care to share why?

 

[letekro]

This is a crusade with you, isn't it? Care to share why?

I am no more a crusader than some others here who believe it is consistent with the evidence that something went on in the bathroom that may have been a technical violation but was really just an attempt to make sure that the balls were not overinflated. This attempt, in the hands of a bumbling fool, may have led to some balls being slightly more deflated than they should have been.

It is also possible that nothing at all happened. I have said many times there was insufficient evidence to punish, even with a small fine. But I think the scenario above could certainly have happened, and it actually fits with the evidence.

 

[Tony2046]

Before you talk to me about facts, show me where it says the ref "said he used" the logo gauge? According to Wells, he said, "best recollection", which in the world of eyewitness testimony can be roughly translated as "I have no farking idea."

I have explained many times why I believe it is slightly more likely that the non-logo gauge was used. In a nutshell, to believe that the logo gauge was used, you have to accept that the two gauges used by the Colts and Patriots were both off by an identical amount as the logo gauge. This is possible, but not more likely than not, IMO. Of course, we don't know whether the balls were originally at 12.5 and 13, respectively, but that is a fact in the record that isn't going to change.

Exponent purchased 50 new gauges. (Page 19 Exponent attachment) The gauges used during Game day measurements were not new. If you are familiar with vacuum/pressure gauges they need to be calibrated annually especially if you are trying to railroad someone over a tenth of a psi. The chances that any of the team's gauges were reading precise pressure measurements is highly unlikely.

The 50 gauges were tested on a known 13 psi system. Only 8 registered 13.0 psi. The readings from all 50 gauges varied from 12.55 to 13.2. Btw, these gauges are not the $800 calibrated gauges I use in my systems. These gauges are designed to get you in the ballpark.

IOW, This is the first time the NFL made an issue of ball pressure. We do not know if Walt measured both teams balls with the same gauge or with two different gauges at different times or if he measured them at all. It is all heresay. We do not know any of the conditions in which the balls were measured. We do not know if the balls were placed in the same location or if one bag of balls sat under a heater vent while the other sat in the coldest part of the room. We do not know because no one ever cared prior to the sting op.

 

[aluminum seats]

Thanks. Overall i agree with you. Another possibility is that he did mess around with a needle (other than his d*ck) in the bathroom just to ensure that the balls were not overinflated. Because he is a moron, he might have ended up unscientifically removing a little more from some balls than others (say .4 vs .2) which would explain the variability in the Pats balls. At any rate, even worst case, it seems they were trying to get the balls to 12.5 or so.

Forced to choose, this is what I think happened.

 

[VectorPrime]

I don't think I've ever see someone so committed to being devils advocate for such a worthless cause before.

 

[Tony2046]

Correct!! Dont get things confused. We agree that the Wells Report and the Exponent Report are hit pieces. I think the small point of disagreement is that you seem to think the Exponent Report PROVES that there was no deflation. I say it PROVES nothing at all. It is worthless. However it does have an experiment in there, represented at Figures 29 and 30, that I have not seen refuted. I find it slightly troubling that it seems that no real study exists that contradicts Figures 29 and 30. Why didn't Brady's lawyers commission their own study?? This is the first thing that litigators do when confronted with an expert report.

There are a few issues with the chart below. 1. The Colt's footballs are being used as the control to generate a conclusion. How can you do that when you know just as little about the Colt's football data as you do about the Patriots football data. 2. The wet transient line has the identical slope for both the Colts and the Pats but we both know that both set of balls were exposed to differentiating degrees of wetness.

Stupid little side note: For wetness they sprayed each football with 48 deg F water from a water bottle. We do not know what the rain temperature was that day in Foxboro but I'll bet it was much lower. (Yes I'm guessing but so were they.) Further, their test handled each ball individually and not clustered in a bag which would affect the re acclimation periods for each individual ball.

Question: How do you accept this data when it was built based on initial data you agree is unreliable?

 

[Tony2046]

Thanks. Overall i agree with you. Another possibility is that he did mess around with a needle (other than his d*ck) in the bathroom just to ensure that the balls were not overinflated. Because he is a moron, he might have ended up unscientifically removing a little more from some balls than others (say .4 vs .2) which would explain the variability in the Pats balls. At any rate, even worst case, it seems they were trying to get the balls to 12.5 or so.

Yes that is possible and I mentioned that. Was Brady trying to get a competitive advantage? No. End of story.

And that is the conclusion that the NFL should have come to.

 

[Calhoun44]

Thanks. I understand the theory. It is a basic law of physics that nobody disputes. However you cant use it to accurately predict psi if you dont know even one of the following factors:

Starting psi
Precisely when (down to the minute) each ball was measured
Precisely how wet each ball was
The precise temperature in the officials locker room

Here, none of these variables are known. Hence the Exponent report is worthless except for the experiment part (figs 29 and 30)

So, are you saying there was no point in penalizing NE because they had no accurate data? Is that the main point you have been arguing about this whole thread? If that is your point then it makes sense to me, I often wondered this myself.

 

[realtime]

I don't think I've ever see someone so committed to being devils advocate for such a worthless cause before.

I don't think I've ever seen someone so committed to following a thread he was whining to have locked.

 

[VectorPrime]

I don't think I've ever seen someone so committed to following a thread he was whining to have locked.

I do occasionally come in here because I foolishly hope that there is actually news being discussed. Silly me though.