Tom Brady, NFLPA Granted 14-Day Extension To File Motion For Rehearing By Second Circuit Court

[letekro]

Seriously... What text messages are in any way evidence that Tom Brady orchestrated a scheme to deflate footballs?



The texts are *suspicious* IF, and only IF, you start with the presumption that something nefarious happened.



The IGL is sufficient to show the world that the shock and awe that everyone experienced at the revelation that the Pats' footballs had lower air pressure could easily be explained by the laws of physics. And therefore the obvious next step would be to hold the horses and start from the beginning and use Occam's Razor and start with natural causes first. Of course, the NFL did just the opposite - assumed guilt and went from there.



The best assumptions favor this interpretation. (1) Anderson's gauge recollection is correct; we should assume this because the Wells Report assumes his recollection is spot-on on every other point; (2) the basic physics show that if you start with reasonable room and outside temps, that the footballs should end up right where they were. You have to fiddle with the assumptions to get the story to be what Goodell claims it is.



Wet footballs is a perfectly reasonable assumption given that, you know, it was POURING RAIN that day.



But we know which set of assumptions is more reasonable. And based on reasonable assumptions, the science exonerates the Patriots completely.



Science provides us with a very clear road map. Occam's Razor again.



Again, what, exactly, do the texts show? What do they tell us?



It's insufficient to meet ANY reasonable standard. The texts are evidence of NOTHING.



This is correct.

90% wrong and no effort at all to be honest.

 

[ViperGTS]

That's ironic, it's exactly what I think of the garbage you have been spewing. If you want to prove something happened go ahead and try, I'm done arguing your assumptions.

Holy cow. We need a link to the Deflagate forums where all of this has been archived. Someone wants info..point them there. I just had a flashback reading this last page or so.

Yikes.

 

[NashuaPats]

90% wrong and no effort at all to be honest.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

And that's an impossible standard to meet. All they have to say is that he discussed it with Jastremski, no texts or emails are needed, they assume it so it's true.

True, but tough. Employers start with having the right to punish you (up to and including termination) for any or no reason (other than protected class stuff), so unless you have a contract saying otherwise, they can presume you guilty if they want to and tell you you have to prove yourself innocent to their satisfaction if don't want to be punished.

That said, no honest employer would have believed Brady did anything.

 

[Ivan]

True, but tough. Employers start with having the right to punish you (up to and including termination) for any or no reason (other than protected class stuff), so unless you have a contract saying otherwise, they can presume you guilty if they want to and tell you you have to prove yourself innocent to their satisfaction if don't want to be punished.

That said, no honest employer would have believed Brady did anything.

QM, I think you have been on the money throughout this and I see what you are getting at but if it is actually the case that no infraction has to be committed and no guilt established then there is no point even discussing this because it all comes down to the league's assumptions and absolute power. That's so Kafkaesque and surreal that I can't go there, and there would be no point anyways because nothing is established as a standard and they can just shape shift as they please.

 

[zydecochris]

I have seen the shorter version of this. It is a critique of some of the theory used in the exponent report. I fast forwarded through this version but didnt see any controlled experimentation going on. Is there any? That is what I would like to see, to refute figures 29 and 30 of the Exponent Report.

Any scientific report can be critiqued for methodology. While the narrative on this board is that all scientists agree that the Patriots didnt deflate the balls, there were many physicists who came out in support of the Exponent Report when the media was playing that angle. When the tide turned after the Berman decision, Leonard showed up and the media began actively seeking out scientists that were critical of the Exponent Report. That, I think, has given the false impression that there is a scientific consensus.

I followed the science quite closely. I was one of the guys (I'm a physics professor) along with PalmBeachPatsFan (a Ph.D. Chemist) and others that made so many posts proving the physics that we got the thread exiled (as non-football related). I can absolutely assure you that the science (explaining the ball deflation) has absolutely been proven, there is no controversy, and no scientist has disputed this, there is complete consensus in the science community.

Neil deGrasse Tyson briefly tweeted his doubts, but he used gauge pressure instead of absolute pressure (an error a freshman physics student shouldn't have made) and he quickly corrected himself. The only person to cast doubt on it was "Bill the Science Guy", who isn't a scientist by any stretch of the imagination, he is a television personality (with no advanced degrees beyond B.S.), who makes a living by presenting science to kids in a funny and entertaining way, kind of like a Sesame Street character.

 

[VectorPrime]

Please just close this thread. There is literally no use for it.

 

[letekro]

I followed the science quite closely. I was one of the guys (I'm a physics professor) along with PalmBeachPatsFan (a Ph.D. Chemist) and others that made so many posts proving the physics that we got the thread exiled (as non-football related). I can absolutely assure you that the science (explaining the ball deflation) has absolutely been proven, there is no controversy, and no scientist has disputed this, there is complete consensus in the science community.

Neil deGrasse Tyson briefly tweeted his doubts, but he used gauge pressure instead of absolute pressure (an error a freshman physics student shouldn't have made) and he quickly corrected himself. The only person to cast doubt on it was "Bill the Science Guy", who isn't a scientist by any stretch of the imagination, he is a television personality (with no advanced degrees beyond B.S.), who makes a living by presenting science to kids in a funny and entertaining way, kind of like a Sesame Street character.

Thanks for weighing in. When you say "the science", what are you referring to? The IGL is a law of physics. But if you don't know the inputs to that law, what utility does it have?

 

[ivanvamp]

90% wrong and no effort at all to be honest.

Bzzzzzzzzt. Try again.

 

[letekro]

Bzzzzzzzzt. Try again.

Not worth my time. If you had provided sincere and thoughtful responses i would follow suit. Alas, you didnt, and thats the end of it. I mean what can i say to a blanket statement like "the texts are evidence of Nothing."? There are 2 or 3 problematic texts in the Wells Report from which it is possible to draw an inference of illegal deflation. The Dinks' explanations for them were simply ridiculous ("under a lot of stress to get them done" refers to selling seats at the 50 yard line--sure it does). This is real evidence from which an objective fact-finder can draw inferences adverse to Brady.

 

[Gumby]

Please just close this thread. There is literally no use for it.

It is serving letekro to build up his post count (and maybe he can challenge for the 'king of dislikes ' title by the time he and the thread are done.

 

[letekro]

It is serving letekro to build up his post count (and maybe he can challenge for the 'king of dislikes ' title by the time he and the thread are done.

Yeah, "patsfans" is probably not the best place to go for a fair and balanced discussion of deflategate. I was clearly being overly optimistic in thinking otherwise.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Yeah, "patsfans" is probably not the best place to go for a fair and balanced discussion of deflategate. I was clearly being overly optimistic in thinking otherwise.

Not with this group.

With that said there was nothing fair and balanced with Deflategate.

 

[letekro]

Not with this group.

With that said there was nothing fair and balanced with Deflategate.

Agree on both points. Thanks for being one of the few to meaningfully participate.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

Yeah, "patsfans" is probably not the best place to go for a fair and balanced discussion of deflategate. I was clearly being overly optimistic in thinking otherwise.

Maybe but for an informed discussion of the science, this site takes a back seat to none....
For others.....

 

[Jackson 2]

I followed the science quite closely. I was one of the guys (I'm a physics professor) along with PalmBeachPatsFan (a Ph.D. Chemist) and others that made so many posts proving the physics that we got the thread exiled (as non-football related). I can absolutely assure you that the science (explaining the ball deflation) has absolutely been proven, there is no controversy, and no scientist has disputed this, there is complete consensus in the science community.

Neil deGrasse Tyson briefly tweeted his doubts, but he used gauge pressure instead of absolute pressure (an error a freshman physics student shouldn't have made) and he quickly corrected himself. The only person to cast doubt on it was "Bill the Science Guy", who isn't a scientist by any stretch of the imagination, he is a television personality (with no advanced degrees beyond B.S.), who makes a living by presenting science to kids in a funny and entertaining way, kind of like a Sesame Street character.

Thank you for providing input based upon empirical evidence. There is a clear tendency among many Americans these days to dismiss such evidence because it's intelligence-based and the product of fact, rather than emotion. Well-done.

 

[ivanvamp]

Not worth my time. If you had provided sincere and thoughtful responses i would follow suit. Alas, you didnt, and thats the end of it. I mean what can i say to a blanket statement like "the texts are evidence of Nothing."? There are 2 or 3 problematic texts in the Wells Report from which it is possible to draw an inference of illegal deflation. The Dinks' explanations for them were simply ridiculous ("under a lot of stress to get them done" refers to selling seats at the 50 yard line--sure it does). This is real evidence from which an objective fact-finder can draw inferences adverse to Brady.

Really? I guess by "inference" you mean the term "deflator" can lead to an inference of illegal deflation, right? Even though the term had absolutely no relevant context to it, and was texted like 9 months before the AFCCG? I guess you're right - we can infer illegal deflation from that. But then again, if I just pull random words from your posts I can infer that you're a rapist murderer, assuming I'm looking for that.

 

[Joker]

Deflategate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"On August 31, 2015, writing an op-ed piece for WBUR-FM, New York Law School professor Robert Blecker, a self-described Patriots detractor, explained how he believes the NFL and Exponent had been deceptive regarding crucial evidence, and that he believes that most likely no cheating was committed by the Patriots. The op-ed mentions that the "expert accusers" (Exponent) ignored the effect of the balls having remained in the bag on game day. The op-ed linked to Robert F. Young’s website deflategate landing page[54][55] for further proof of the bag issue.

During an interview on 60 Minutes that aired on CBS on September 13, 2015, Blecker claimed that the NFL investigation was completely biased against the Patriots. He stated that the gauges used to measure the footballs at halftime were Walt Anderson's personal gauges and that, "if you want to know how much something has dropped, you’ve got to measure it with the same gauge before the game as you do at halftime." Blecker also noted that the side-by-side comparison of the two gauges shown in the Wells Report were different sizes. In addition to that, the picture also showed that the NFL measured the 2 needles at different spot to make the smaller needle appear longer. According to Blecker, the different needle sizes resulted in one gauge reading at a constant measure of about 0.4 PSI higher than the other.[56] On December 14, 2015; Blecker filed a amicus curiae brief accusing the NFL of "infected with bias, unfairness, evident partiality and occasional fraud"[57][58]

On November 25, 2015, MIT Professor John Leonard posted a lecture on YouTube titled "Taking the Measure of Deflategate" in which he explains why he believes the Exponent portion of the Wells Report contains technical failures that caused the report to incorrectly conclude that environmental factors alone could not have explained the changes in air pressure. An abridged version of the lecture is available here.[59] Leonard walks through the ideal gas law calculations, highlighting mistakes others made when doing similar calculations by not using absolute pressure, and concludes that the Patriots' footballs met the ideal gas law prediction.

"If I had to stake my reputation and my career on it, the Patriots balls match the Ideal Gas Law prediction, and I don't know why people can't get that." - John Leonard, "Taking the Measure of Deflategate" @ 47:37

Leonard then pointed out inconsistencies in the Exponent report regarding the effect of wetness on volume, and cited one study by Thomas Healy, a graduate student at Carnegie Mellon, that showed up to a three percent increase in volume if the balls are wet.[60] Leonard agreed with previous analysis that showed slowed warming of balls when kept in a bag which; something he claims the Exponent reports ignores. He also details technical failures of the transient analysis in the Exponent report which do not show a slower rate of warming for wet balls and contain incorrect "amplitudes" in the graphs which underrepresented the total warming of both the Colts and Patriots balls."61]

Walt Anderson attested to the FACT that he used the official NFL gauge he ALWAYS used to measure PSI's. Wells made the CLAIM that Anderson mis-remembered and was wrong, that he used the unofficial gauge, which read 4/10's of a PSI LOWER than the official gauge Anderson STATED FOR THE RECORD that he used that game and every game.

Wells provided ZERO PROOF of this and further obfuscated the issue by making it LOOK LIKE the gauges were identical when, as the ruse was uncovered, Exponent actually jury rigged the comparison and anyone could see a CLEAR,STARK difference between the official gauge and this unofficial gauge that read 4/10's lower than the NFL gauge. Why does THIS matter so much Letekro? If Anderson used the gauge he said he did (which I and most intelligent people believe he did) then THERE IS NO DEFLATION below the legal parameter. It is only when this other non league approved gauge is used that SOME of the balls fall under the prescribed range by mere tenths of a PSI ..or the equivalent of a sheet of paper.

Brady's phone has NOTHING...N-O-T-H-I-N-G...to do with the TRUTH of THIS matter.It's a classic red herring and it has obviously worked since people like you STILL cannot see the obvious....there was NEVER any illegal deflation to begin with.

 

[zydecochris]

Thanks for weighing in. When you say "the science", what are you referring to? The IGL is a law of physics. But if you don't know the inputs to that law, what utility does it have?

As a bunch of us beat to death in the old, exiled Deflategate thread and explained my numerous scientists in various places (the video by MIT Professor John Leonard that Joker just referred to is an especially good one), the amount of deflation is about what one would expect from the IGL when one fills the footballs inside a room temperature room and then the footballs are taken outside where it was colder, I think the game day temperature was 40 something F outside (and as it turns out that completely expected deflation appears to be stronger when the ball gets wet, as it was that day).

Why is that so? If I may grossly oversimplify a bit, the temperature (T) of a gas is related to its kinetic energy, and so air molecules inside the football zoom around faster at high T and slower at low T. The velocity v of each molecule gives it a momentum p=mv. When the molecules bang against the side of the football, the change of p imparts an impulse (a force time product). When you sum up the forces all of the molecules banging against a unit area of the football you get absolute pressure, P (=force per area). Thus, when you fill up the footballs inside at the warmer temperature and then bring them outside where the football (and the gas inside) cools off, the molecules zoom around slower, which decreases their average momentum, which decreases the impulse they impart when they bang against the inside of the football, which decreases the absolute pressure. Gauge pressure is the amount of absolute pressure above atmospheric pressure, so as the footballs (or your tires in winter) cool down the gauge pressure (in psi) decreases in a predicted way according to the IGL, if that didn't happen it would violate the laws of physics.

 

[willard]

We are coming into the dead part of the news cycle for the NFL with free agency all but wound down until summer cuts and the draft done. I hope Brady's attorneys keep this going, not so much in the hopes of winning-think the defamation suit is the clearest path for that and not sure if Brady wants o walk that road-but in keeping this stink in front of everyone. The more it is talked about, the more I think the NFL looks bad and Brady and the Patriots look good.

I am surprised there has been so little outcry in the media about the extreme payment in terms of draft capital was taken from the Patriots given how the Wells report described the teams cooperation with the NFL.