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Tom Brady, NFLPA Granted 14-Day Extension To File Motion For Rehearing By Second Circuit Court


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I have experience as a ball boy and can tell you that the balls are handled like the Crown Jewels. They had some moisture on them, no doubt. But how wet were they? My expectation is that they were wet but not soaked and the question is what impact that has. Exponent's water bottle resulted in -0.1. The Carnegie Mellon kid, who dunked the balls in water, says -0.7. It is almost 100% certain that the the real effect was somewhere in between that range, but where? I would say -0.3 or -0.4 is most likely given that the water bottle and puddle-dunk are at extremes.
you are totally missing the point of the argument. when you have a bunch of cold objects grouped together in an insulated object, they will warm up slower than a single cold object out in the open on its own.

i am done, the research has been beaten to death and shows nothing happened outside of natural laws.
 
Reasonable nonpats fans i have spoken with find the combination of texts and Bradys failure to produce the potentially relevant evidence compelling. Judges could come to the same conclusion (and yes it does inform their decision even though they are supposed to focus on process). It would be one thing if we could say that there was science that PROVES that nothing happened. In that case, all other evidence would be irrelevant. But, i dont believe we can, and that is a significant divergence from the prevailing view here.


And once again you are talking of an assumption of guilt and not proving guilt. You are actually saying that Brady has to somehow prove he is not guilty rather than showing everyone evidence that he is. When asked in judge Berman's court it there was any actual evidence of guilt Jeff Pash acknowledged there is none. The NFL wrongly assumed from the start that the only possible explanation for the lower air pressure was that someone tampered with the balls, and admitted that when Vincent admitted they didn't know what the IGL was. So physics explain the loss of air pressure and there is no evidence at all that Brady told anyone to tamper with game balls. If you want to side with the league and demand that Brady somehow prove he didn't do something then you are asking the impossible because it cannot be proven. It's a ridiculous standard where he is assumed to be guilty and has to somehow prove innocence. So let's try it this way, you go ahead and present your evidence of guilt and we can all rule on it.
 
Mike Francesa, a few days after this broke, was taking calls on Deflategate, and here's basically what he said (paraphrase):

We KNOW the Colts' balls were in range. We KNOW the Patriots' balls were all low. Don't give me science if one team's balls were low and the other team's were good! Obviously the Patriots tampered with the footballs - there's no other explanation. The only question is whether Belichick told them or Brady told them.


Sadly, most fans still think like this.
 
Reasonable nonpats fans i have spoken with find the combination of texts and Bradys failure to produce the potentially relevant evidence compelling. Judges could come to the same conclusion (and yes it does inform their decision even though they are supposed to focus on process). It would be one thing if we could say that there was science that PROVES that nothing happened. In that case, all other evidence would be irrelevant. But, i dont believe we can, and that is a significant divergence from the prevailing view here.
I am willing to wager a lot of money that not one of the "reasonable nonpats fans" to whom you refer has read the Wells Report, the Wells Report in Context or any of the other pertinent court documents related to this case. If any one of them did and still hold that opinion you describe, s/he is a liar, a fool or both.
 
I am willing to wager a lot of money that not one of the "reasonable nonpats fans" to whom you refer has read the Wells Report, the Wells Report in Context or any of the other pertinent court documents related to this case. If any one of them did and still hold that opinion you describe, s/he is a liar, a fool or both.

Every reasonable non-pats fan I know that has taken the time to read the report and follow this whole deal, believes the Pats got jobbed just like the rest of us.
 
Every reasonable non-pats fan I know that has taken the time to read the report and follow this whole deal, believes the Pats got jobbed just like the rest of us.
The reciprocal agreement to my statement. Thank you.
 
That video shows one ball on its own warming up with no wetness. Again, the situation on game day was much different. Put a bunch of damp footballs in a damp bag and the warming effect would be significantly slowed.

Let's not forget that there were 2 quarters of football with 300+ lb men falling on top of that ball all game long... that's another factor that hasn't even been tested or considered.. not that it even needs consideration because the IGL already creates the more than reasonable doubt that there was anything going on

This whole thing is so ****ing crazy
 
I have experience as a ball boy and can tell you that the balls are handled like the Crown Jewels. They had some moisture on them, no doubt. But how wet were they? My expectation is that they were wet but not soaked and the question is what impact that has. Exponent's water bottle resulted in -0.1. The Carnegie Mellon kid, who dunked the balls in water, says -0.7. It is almost 100% certain that the the real effect was somewhere in between that range, but where? I would say -0.3 or -0.4 is most likely given that the water bottle and puddle-dunk are at extremes.

It's like you dont even realize that some balls were at PSI well above the range of where they should have been even if they were dry. If a dry ball is supposed to drop from 12.5 to 11.35 in dry conditions at those temperatures (72 to 48) then obviously the balls that came in at 11.8 or so were either measured last or else they were dry balls at the bottom of the bag and protected from temperatures.
 
If this case was tried in front of a jury, there is no chance Brady is found guilty of anything.

Just remember that since this is a civil case the standard a jury would be using is "more probable than not". So if they thought there was a 50.01% chance Brady did it they would find against Brady.
 
And once again you are talking of an assumption of guilt and not proving guilt. You are actually saying that Brady has to somehow prove he is not guilty rather than showing everyone evidence that he is.

Unless the CBA says Brady is entitled to a presumption of innocence, then yes, the NFL can insist that Brady does have to prove he is not guilty.
 
Unless the CBA says Brady is entitled to a presumption of innocence, then yes, the NFL can insist that Brady does have to prove he is not guilty.
He did.
 
Mike Francesa, a few days after this broke, was taking calls on Deflategate, and here's basically what he said (paraphrase):

We KNOW the Colts' balls were in range. We KNOW the Patriots' balls were all low. Don't give me science if one team's balls were low and the other team's were good! Obviously the Patriots tampered with the footballs - there's no other explanation. The only question is whether Belichick told them or Brady told them.


Sadly, most fans still think like this.
Because, like Fat F### Francesa, they want to.
 
Unless the CBA says Brady is entitled to a presumption of innocence, then yes, the NFL can insist that Brady does have to prove he is not guilty.


And that's an impossible standard to meet. All they have to say is that he discussed it with Jastremski, no texts or emails are needed, they assume it so it's true.
 
And once again you are talking of an assumption of guilt and not proving guilt. You are actually saying that Brady has to somehow prove he is not guilty rather than showing everyone evidence that he is. When asked in judge Berman's court it there was any actual evidence of guilt Jeff Pash acknowledged there is none. The NFL wrongly assumed from the start that the only possible explanation for the lower air pressure was that someone tampered with the balls, and admitted that when Vincent admitted they didn't know what the IGL was. So physics explain the loss of air pressure and there is no evidence at all that Brady told anyone to tamper with game balls. If you want to side with the league and demand that Brady somehow prove he didn't do something then you are asking the impossible because it cannot be proven. It's a ridiculous standard where he is assumed to be guilty and has to somehow prove innocence. So let's try it this way, you go ahead and present your evidence of guilt and we can all rule on it.

There is no assumption of guilt. Let's go step by step on how I think about this.

1. NFL counsel said there was no "direct" evidence, not that there was "no evidence." There is some circumstantial evidence in this case (which is generally more reliable than direct evidence). Namely, the text messages, and the Exponent Report. Now, most of this circumstantial evidence is weak, but some of it is fairly compelling, at least to non-Patsfans (for example, the text about fat boy being "stressed" to "get them done." or Brady's failure to turn over texts from the most relevant time period)

2. Patsfans says: "The texts are not really great evidence, but nevertheless they could potentially be evidence of deflation, yet they should be COMPLETELY IGNORED because it is IMPOSSIBLE that air was taken out of the balls because "'SCIENCE." (i.e., the IGL).

3. But the IGL is a law not a solution; it is of no use if you don't know the data points to input into it.

4. It is true that "Science" explains the entire pressure loss under a certain set of assumptions. Obviously, Patsfans has taken the view that these assumptions are the correct ones.

5. Under other assumptions, however, the entire pressure loss is not explained and patsfans resorts to conjecture to explain the gap (e.g., "the balls were wet and that results in x% loss, because I say so; the balls were squashed by giant men and that results in x% loss, because I say so, etc.")

6.Since nobody on Earth or in Heaven, not even Patsfans, knows which assumptions should be used (i.e., which data points should be input into the IGL), "Science" cannot conclusively implicate or exculpate the Patriots.

7. Since "science" does not provide a conclusive answer, the texts and adverse inference that might be drawn from the loss of Brady's phone become relevant again.

8. When the texts and potentially adverse inference become relevant again, reasonable minds can differ on their evidentiary value.

9. In my opinion, their evidentiary value is insufficient to meet the preponderance of the evidence standard. But that is my opinion.

10. 1-9 is important to the merits of the case, but pales in importance to the big picture: The real injustice here is how the NFL (in brilliantly devilish ways, btw) turned AT THE VERY MOST a minor equipment violation into the greatest breach of "INTEGRITY" the world has ever known, using it as a basis for draconian team and player punishments, and character assassination of arguably the greatest player on the greatest team in the history of the league.
 
There is no assumption of guilt. Let's go step by step on how I think about this.

1. NFL counsel said there was no "direct" evidence, not that there was "no evidence." There is some circumstantial evidence in this case (which is generally more reliable than direct evidence). Namely, the text messages, and the Exponent Report. Now, most of this circumstantial evidence is weak, but some of it is fairly compelling, at least to non-Patsfans (for example, the text about fat boy being "stressed" to "get them done." or Brady's failure to turn over texts from the most relevant time period)

2. Patsfans says: "The texts are not really great evidence, but nevertheless they could potentially be evidence of deflation, yet they should be COMPLETELY IGNORED because it is IMPOSSIBLE that air was taken out of the balls because "'SCIENCE." (i.e., the IGL).

3. But the IGL is a law not a solution; it is of no use if you don't know the data points to input into it.

4. It is true that "Science" explains the entire pressure loss under a certain set of assumptions. Obviously, Patsfans has taken the view that these assumptions are the correct ones.

5. Under other assumptions, however, the entire pressure loss is not explained and patsfans resorts to conjecture to explain the gap (e.g., "the balls were wet and that results in x% loss, because I say so; the balls were squashed by giant men and that results in x% loss, because I say so, etc.")

6.Since nobody on Earth or in Heaven, not even Patsfans, knows which assumptions should be used (i.e., which data points should be input into the IGL), "Science" cannot conclusively implicate or exculpate the Patriots.

7. Since "science" does not provide a conclusive answer, the texts and adverse inference that might be drawn from the loss of Brady's phone become relevant again.

8. When the texts and potentially adverse inference become relevant again, reasonable minds can differ on their evidentiary value.

9. In my opinion, their evidentiary value is insufficient to meet the preponderance of the evidence standard. But that is my opinion.

10. 1-9 is important to the merits of the case, but pales in importance to the big picture: The real injustice here is how the NFL (in brilliantly devilish ways, btw) turned AT THE VERY MOST a minor equipment violation into the greatest breach of "INTEGRITY" the world has ever known, using it as a basis for draconian team and player punishments, and character assassination of arguably the greatest player on the greatest team in the history of the league.


According to this Brady isn't having to prove he wasn't involved in something that happened, he had to prove he wasn't involved in something that may or may not have even happened.

How exactly does anyone prove they weren't involved in something that may not have even happened? The NFL assumed guilt and they and those who agree with them refuse to prove something even happened let alone that he was involved.

If you want to continue this then you can try to prove Brady is guilty, I'm done with arguing assumptions of guilt involving something that hasn't been proved to have even happened.
 
According to this Brady isn't having to prove he wasn't involved in something that happened, he had to prove he wasn't involved in something that may or may not have even happened.

How exactly does anyone prove they weren't involved in something that may not have even happened? The NFL assumed guilt and they and those who agree with them refuse to prove something even happened let alone that he was involved.

If you want to continue this then you can try to prove Brady is guilty, I'm done with arguing assumptions of guilt involving something that hasn't been proved to have even happened.

What is this babble?
 
There is no assumption of guilt. Let's go step by step on how I think about this.

1. NFL counsel said there was no "direct" evidence, not that there was "no evidence." There is some circumstantial evidence in this case (which is generally more reliable than direct evidence). Namely, the text messages, and the Exponent Report. Now, most of this circumstantial evidence is weak, but some of it is fairly compelling, at least to non-Patsfans (for example, the text about fat boy being "stressed" to "get them done." or Brady's failure to turn over texts from the most relevant time period)

Seriously... What text messages are in any way evidence that Tom Brady orchestrated a scheme to deflate footballs?

2. Patsfans says: "The texts are not really great evidence, but nevertheless they could potentially be evidence of deflation, yet they should be COMPLETELY IGNORED because it is IMPOSSIBLE that air was taken out of the balls because "'SCIENCE." (i.e., the IGL).

The texts are *suspicious* IF, and only IF, you start with the presumption that something nefarious happened.

3. But the IGL is a law not a solution; it is of no use if you don't know the data points to input into it.

The IGL is sufficient to show the world that the shock and awe that everyone experienced at the revelation that the Pats' footballs had lower air pressure could easily be explained by the laws of physics. And therefore the obvious next step would be to hold the horses and start from the beginning and use Occam's Razor and start with natural causes first. Of course, the NFL did just the opposite - assumed guilt and went from there.

4. It is true that "Science" explains the entire pressure loss under a certain set of assumptions. Obviously, Patsfans has taken the view that these assumptions are the correct ones.

The best assumptions favor this interpretation. (1) Anderson's gauge recollection is correct; we should assume this because the Wells Report assumes his recollection is spot-on on every other point; (2) the basic physics show that if you start with reasonable room and outside temps, that the footballs should end up right where they were. You have to fiddle with the assumptions to get the story to be what Goodell claims it is.

5. Under other assumptions, however, the entire pressure loss is not explained and patsfans resorts to conjecture to explain the gap (e.g., "the balls were wet and that results in x% loss, because I say so; the balls were squashed by giant men and that results in x% loss, because I say so, etc.")

Wet footballs is a perfectly reasonable assumption given that, you know, it was POURING RAIN that day.

6.Since nobody on Earth or in Heaven, not even Patsfans, knows which assumptions should be used (i.e., which data points should be input into the IGL), "Science" cannot conclusively implicate or exculpate the Patriots.

But we know which set of assumptions is more reasonable. And based on reasonable assumptions, the science exonerates the Patriots completely.

7. Since "science" does not provide a conclusive answer, the texts and adverse inference that might be drawn from the loss of Brady's phone become relevant again.

Science provides us with a very clear road map. Occam's Razor again.

8. When the texts and potentially adverse inference become relevant again, reasonable minds can differ on their evidentiary value.

Again, what, exactly, do the texts show? What do they tell us?

9. In my opinion, their evidentiary value is insufficient to meet the preponderance of the evidence standard. But that is my opinion.

It's insufficient to meet ANY reasonable standard. The texts are evidence of NOTHING.

10. 1-9 is important to the merits of the case, but pales in importance to the big picture: The real injustice here is how the NFL (in brilliantly devilish ways, btw) turned AT THE VERY MOST a minor equipment violation into the greatest breach of "INTEGRITY" the world has ever known, using it as a basis for draconian team and player punishments, and character assassination of arguably the greatest player on the greatest team in the history of the league.

This is correct.
 
What is this babble?

That's ironic, it's exactly what I think of the garbage you have been spewing. If you want to prove something happened go ahead and try, I'm done arguing your assumptions.
 
That's ironic, it's exactly what I think of the garbage you have been spewing. If you want to prove something happened go ahead and try, I'm done arguing your assumptions.

Why would I want to "prove something happened"? I am mystified as to where you are coming from. I stated in clear English that no wrongdoing can be proven, even to a preponderance of the evidence standard. See item 9 above.
 
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