The optimistic case for Mac Jones

[crawhammer]

Allen sucked balls his first two season's in the league, he got progressively better from year one to year two to year three... but he took time to develop. He did look like a bust his first couple seasons.

Some players take time to develop. In discussing Mac you sound like those Bill's fans saying Josh Allen will never be good enough early on.

Come on, that's crazy talk lol. I don't sound anything like some jackass Bills fan trying to get rid of Allen. And Allen only "sucked balls" in his first two seasons if you throw out his rushing stats (1141 yards and 17 TDs), which I'm sure you're doing since you do it routinely with every other running quarterback.

 

[Real fan 02]

Bingo! This also is why I have concern with Mac. His ceiling is too low in my opinion and he won't be competitive with several other quarterbacks in the conference... Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Jackson, Watson, Lawrence... ultimately Mac will have to play better than probably at least two of these quarterbacks to get through the AFC playoffs. As of right now I don't see that happening.

No one knows what a QB's ceiling will be.. all we can do is watch and see.. it's so many things that factor into that.

I don't think I've ever appreciated coaching more so than this past season..

The QB is the sole person that has to have the want, the drive the hunger to be great. We witnessed that for 19 seasons.

Mac has so many of those same traits.. the guy is a winner.. he knows established culture in a winning environment with saban.. and all things considered he won here his first season.

I want him to become a great QB and so should all of us.. I don't want to be the bills for 10 plus seasons od loosing.. or these other franchises that go into NFL purgatory for years..

He has some NFL experience under his belt now it's all on the organization to allow him the tools to succeed.. we have complimentary pieces at WR, now get him some #1s and let's see how things go..

It's only fair to Mac..

 

[Wozzy]

That's great but Kirk has been a full-time starter for 8 seasons now.

Kirk Cousins:

5.2 TD%
2.2 INT%
66.8 comp%
7.6 Y/A
262 Y/G
97.8 passer rating

Mac Jones:

3.7 TD%
2.5 INT%
66.5 comp%
7.1 Y/A
219 Y/G
89.0 passer rating

Cousins is better everywhere and a lot better in some categories. If Mac can elevate his game to Cousins level then he will have significantly improved on his first two seasons (which would be a good thing).

Again.... Mac Jones started as a rookie. Kirk sat for three seasons before he became a full-time starter. Mac also had the worst possible surrounding situation in year two, so taking his stats in totality when he's been in the league all of five minutes is misleading at best.

I provided you Cousins stats versus Mac's stats above based upon one season's worth of starts from the roughly same age range... Mac was far superior to Kirk at a younger age, so don't tell us we shouldn't compare Mac to Kirk.

Unless you can tell me what Mac and the Patriots (whatever team) will develop into... then using Kirk's stats as a fully developed player is dishonest. Nobody knows what Mac will develop into, not you, not me, nobody... but you're pretending to know, or worse... pretending he is a fully developed player in a great situation like Kirk was on the Vikings last season. They had everything, good scheme, great line, great weapons, a #1 at every position.

 

[crawhammer]

you dismissed Wozzy's response when he showed you Cousins's numbers

I addressed it.

then dismissed everything that went on here last season, and all the context behind their collective issues as a whole

I'm willing to have an open mind heading into next season because there were some disadvantageous circumstances last season

Are you skimming my posts or just making assumptions about what I said?

You called him mediocre. Twice.

Mediocre as in moderately skilled. What's so terrible or unfair about that?

Finally, something we at least agree on.

 

[Ian]

I addressed it.



Are you skimming my posts or just making assumptions about what I said?


Mediocre as in moderately skilled. What's so terrible or unfair about that?

 

[Wozzy]

Come on, that's crazy talk lol. I don't sound anything like some jackass Bills fan trying to get rid of Allen. And Allen only "sucked balls" in his first two seasons if you throw out his rushing stats (1141 yards and 17 TDs), which I'm sure you're doing since you do it routinely with every other running quarterback.

Allen was considered a universal bust by Bill's fans and media after his first two seasons. That doesn't change based on who he is now, or what you know now in hindsight.

And yes, you do sound like those Bill's fans but worse, with a Patriots slant on it... impatient and entitled. You've been sitting on the mountain top for so long, you forget or are too young to remember what rebuilding and developing young talent looks like... what the early 2000's looked like... or prior when Parcells was here. The Patriots made it look easy, but it wasn't. A lot of work went into it.

 

[crawhammer]

Brady couldn't fix bad offensive line coaching back in 2015 when the Broncos were knocking him around because the line coach didn't have them ready for the silent snap count in the playoffs...

Don't get me going on the 2015 season (that Belichick completely ruined). Brady "didn't fix anything" but he led the NFL in TDs, he had the NFL's lowest INT%, he threw for 300 yards per game, and in a miraculous comeback he had the team a 2-point conversion away from OT in the AFCCG (at Denver thanks to BB). Again, Brady was brilliant in 2015 (like always).

 

[Wozzy]

Don't get me going on the 2015 season (that Belichick completely ruined). Brady "didn't fix anything" but he led the NFL in TDs, he had the NFL's lowest INT%, he threw for 300 yards per game, and in a miraculous comeback he had the team a 2-point conversion away from OT in the AFCCG (at Denver thanks to BB). Again, Brady was brilliant in 2015 (like always).

Yeah... it's curious how BB stumbled and bumbled his way into more wins and championships than anybody in history.

In the 2015 playoff game against Denver... Brady was sacked 4 times and threw two interceptions, the offense scored 18 points... 7 of which came in garbage time, in the last two minutes with the game already over. Brady made the offensive line better that game... laughable.

Dave Gug's was fired because he didn't have the unit prepared to use the silent snap count in Denver, the offense and O-Line was completely undone by bad coaching. But from your perspective, magical unicorn QB's make everything better. It's a naive childlike view of football, and I'm being as gentle as I can without trying to sound too insulting.

 

[crawhammer]

Every offensive player on the team had one of the worst seasons of their individual careers.

Why are you being so blatantly and willfully ignorant, if not to push a "Mac sucks" agenda?

Pardon me, but this is completely wrong.

Stevenson had a breakout season and looks like a workhorse moving forward.
Meyer had his best season of his career.
Parker had his highest Y/R since his rookie season.
Henry improved his catch percentage and Y/R (but didn't have the requisite targets).
Zappe, a rookie QB seeing his first NFL action, looked pretty good (or better).

 

[crawhammer]

Mac has so many of those same traits.. the guy is a winner.. he knows established culture in a winning environment with saban.

Mac's attitude and sideline demeanor sucked last season. He needs to clean that up if he's going to prioritize culture and a winning environment. I think O'Brien will help Mac's development in this area.

 

[Triumph]

That's such a myth. He doesn't have a rocket, but it's amazing how people forget just how good he's been and some of the throws he's made:

Then what was that all 2022 offseason with Tom House?

The word was that Jones was going to impove his arm. It did not happen and it makes no sense to imply that Jones arm is up to par. The Patriots avoided letting Jones throw deep after his ankle. Jones threw a tantrum in Minnesota screaming at Patricia about short passes.

Game 17 saw the Pat's let Jones throw deep and he added 3 more INTs.

 

[crawhammer]

Again.... Mac Jones started as a rookie. Kirk sat for three seasons before he became a full-time starter. Mac also had the worst possible surrounding situation in year two, so taking his stats in totality when he's been in the league all of five minutes is misleading at best.

I provided you Cousins stats versus Mac's stats above based upon one season's worth of starts from the roughly same age range... Mac was far superior to Kirk at a younger age, so don't tell us we shouldn't compare Mac to Kirk.

Unless you can tell me what Mac and the Patriots (whatever team) will develop into... then using Kirk's stats as a fully developed player is dishonest. Nobody knows what Mac will develop into, not you, not me, nobody... but you're pretending to know, or worse... pretending he is a fully developed player in a great situation like Kirk was on the Vikings last season. They had everything, good scheme, great line, great weapons, a #1 at every position.

So according to your restrictive metrics, you would probably conclude Mac's first two seasons were better than Allen's?

My comparison is Mac to Cousins with everything we know about both of them (so taking into account the entirety of their NFL careers). That's what people say, 'Mac's ceiling is Kirk Cousins.' It's a fact that if that comes to fruition then Mac will have improved significantly from his first two seasons.

 

[Wozzy]

Pardon me, but this is completely wrong.

Stevenson had a breakout season and looks like a workhorse moving forward.
Meyer had his best season of his career.
Parker had his highest Y/R since his rookie season.
Henry improved his catch percentage and Y/R (but didn't have the requisite targets).
Zappe, a rookie QB seeing his first NFL action, looked pretty good (or better).

Stevenson started for the first time in his short career because Harris got hurt... and you think that's what... irrelevant?

Meyers had 62 yards fewer than the year prior. Again, he was Mac's security blanket in the middle of the field and slot receiver is the focus of this offensive system. He wasn't better than the year prior despite being in a free agency year where players usually ball out.

Parker had 539 receiving yards, the fourth worst production of his career and he was on some real dumpster fire teams in Miami over the years. He had 1200 yards three seasons ago with Fitzmagic throwing him the ball... don't try to sell us that his production was anywhere near the best of his career. It's insulting to our intelligence.

Bourne... funny how you didn't mention him? He had the best season of his entire career last season with Mac and McDaniels... this year he had the worst of his 3rd worst production of his entire career with Patricia.

The entire football watching world knows the Patriots coaching situation was a disaster... but here you are pretending it was normal so you can slam our players. Just admit you have a "Mac sucks" agenda and move on.

 

[Ian]

Pardon me, but this is completely wrong.

Stevenson had a breakout season and looks like a workhorse moving forward.
Meyer had his best season of his career.
Parker had his highest Y/R since his rookie season.
Henry improved his catch percentage and Y/R (but didn't have the requisite targets).
Zappe, a rookie QB seeing his first NFL action, looked pretty good (or better).

I mentioned this yesterday, but your argumentativeness and posts like this are what is going to do you in here. Looking at the ignored list (which has 1400+ users in it), you're shooting up that list faster than any user I've ever seen in a short period of time. You're already in the top 25, which is pretty mind-blowing out of that many people.

As a result, your stubbornness and need to always argue (you and I both know Y/R doesn't help any offensive player with low reception/yard totals, which are the numbers that matter) is going to leave you in an echo chamber at some point.

Again, I know you know I've stuck up for you in the past, but it's not going well for you here at the rate you're going - without any mod actions.

 

[Real fan 02]

Mac likely won't ever be THE reason the team wins a championship but I think he can be *a* reason why. But it starts with playing better this year. There's no more excuses. I need to see improvement.

I believe many of us are getting to infatuated with the sole talent alone with the best QBs in the league..

Mahomes was the only one of them that came into a structure

Mac's attitude and sideline demeanor sucked last season. He needs to clean that up if he's going to prioritize culture and a winning environment. I think O'Brien will help Mac's development in this area.

One has to wonder with the BB setup he had to endure.. I can't stand to watch a Patricia or judge interview, so imagine what Mac had to endure with these 2 all season.. I'm suprised he didn't have more of those..

Furthermore that's part of his passion for winning he wasn't put in a winning situation last season.. his frustration boiled over.. the players said they loved seeing that in him!

 

[Wozzy]

So according to your restrictive metrics, you would probably conclude Mac's first two seasons were better than Allen's?

My comparison is Mac to Cousins with everything we know about both of them (so taking into account the entirety of their NFL careers). That's what people say, 'Mac's ceiling is Kirk Cousins.' It's a fact that if that comes to fruition then Mac will have improved significantly from his first two seasons.

Do career starting QB's get better over time as they develop... or worse?

Mac was better than Kirk as a rookie, he was better than Josh Allen.

I don't pretend to know whether Mac will continue to develop and improve... but that's what you're doing. Pretending you can see the future. You can't.

 

[crawhammer]

Allen was considered a universal bust by Bill's fans and media after his first two seasons. That doesn't change based on who he is now, or what you know now in hindsight.

And yes, you do sound like those Bill's fans but worse, with a Patriots slant on it... impatient and entitled. You've been sitting on the mountain top for so long, you forget or are too young to remember what rebuilding and developing young talent looks like... what the early 2000's looked like... or prior when Parcells was here. The Patriots made it look easy, but it wasn't. A lot of work went into it.

I know this, the Patriots were the most successful franchise in the history of the NFL 2001-2019.

Parcells is a brilliant head coach/team builder. He routinely turned around failing franchises. He certainly didn't leave the cupboard bear when he left NE.

And I know what "rebuilding and developing young talent looks like"... 25-26.

 

[Wozzy]

I know this, the Patriots were the most successful franchise in the history of the NFL 2001-2019.

Parcells is a brilliant head coach/team builder. He routinely turned around failing franchises. He certainly didn't leave the cupboard bear when he left NE.

And I know what "rebuilding and developing young talent looks like"... 25-26.

This is what rebuilding from scratch looks like...

Jimmy Johnson - season one: 1-15 - season two: 7-9
Bill Walsh - season one: 2-14 - season two: 6-10
Chuck Noll - season one: 1-13 - season two: 5-9 - season three: 6-8
Tom Landry - season one: 0-11-1 - season two: 4-9-1 - season three: 5-8-1
Bill Parcells - season one: 3-12-1 - season two: 9-7

These guys undoubtedly sucked at their jobs the way BB sucks at his.

Again, clueless entitlement...

 

[crawhammer]

In the 2015 playoff game against Denver... Brady was sacked 4 times and threw two interceptions, the offense scored 18 points... 7 of which came in garbage time, in the last two minutes with the game already over. Brady made the offensive line better that game... laughable.

Ok, so you haven't seen the game? You sound like you haven't. The Patriots were down 8 with 1:52 left in the game. On 4th-10 Brady completed a perfectly thrown ball to Gronk for 40-yards. Then on 4th-goal Brady completed a TD pass to Gronk in the back of the end zone. The score at that point was 18-20, if the Patriots make the 2-pt conversion then the game goes into OT. That's NOT "garbage time" with the "game already over." At least correct yourself on this misleading comment.

 

[Wozzy]

Ok, so you haven't seen the game? You sound like you haven't. The Patriots were down 8 with 1:52 left in the game. On 4th-10 Brady completed a perfectly thrown ball to Gronk for 40-yards. Then on 4th-goal Brady completed a TD pass to Gronk in the back of the end zone. The score at that point was 18-20, if the Patriots make the 2-pt conversion then the game goes into OT. That's NOT "garbage time" with the "game already over." At least correct yourself on this misleading comment.

Brady got sacked 4 times, he threw two interceptions as a result of that pressure, he had a 56 QB Rating, Dave Gug's got fired after that postseason...

All the dancing in the world won't change what happened in that game. Brady didn't make his offensive line better, their line coach literally made Brady and his line look worse.

The final drive started with 1:52 left on the clock, even a drive that ended in a TD like their final drive did wouldn't give them a win. That's garbage time. Relying on an onside kick in the final seconds isn't part of the grand plan. You obviously didn't watch the game.