The optimistic case for Mac Jones

[crawhammer]

Also, when Buffalo got knocked out, a lot of people on that board who apparently didn't like Allen the way people don't like Mac, immediately started jumped on Allen about his mechanics, decision-making, etc. and how "he's not the guy." It's just a strange dynamic and it's certainly not exclusive to here.

Allen's mechanics and decision-making were not elite this past season. He's just so incredibly talented otherwise, and gifted with an amazing arm, that he still puts up elite numbers. Allen's skillset and talent far exceeds Mac's so when Mac's mechanics and decision-making are off his game is completely screwed. If Mac wants to be a winner in this league, with the current level of competition, then his mechanics and decision-making will have to be nearly perfect.

 

[Zuma]

People need to take a closer look at Kirk Cousins career numbers before they start comparing Mac to him. Apparently a lot of people will be really surprised at how good Cousins looks (on paper at least).

IMO he's often padded his stats with games that have already been lost...defenses playing prevent

 

[Ian]

Allen's mechanics and decision-making were not elite this past season. He's just so incredibly talented otherwise, and gifted with an amazing arm, that he still puts up elite numbers.

And yet fans on their board still want to get rid of him and find someone else. Again, not an exclusive behavior to here, which was the point I was making.

And Allen had an elbow injury for the majority of last season, a fact that most of them still dismissed, which for a bunch of people who dive on tables, doesn't surprise me.

 

[Zuma]

Sorry if this was posted previously...I think this is an excellent article ...

Analysis: What Will the Patriots Offense Look Like With Bill O'Brien Returning as Offensive Coordinator?

The Patriots have named Bill O'Brien as their new offensive coordinator.

www.patriots.com

 

[crawhammer]

“#1 WR” is a nonsense fan driven concept that nobody can seem to define. The Pats offensive problems last season wouldn’t have been solved with Deandre Hopkins instead of Devante Parker… they would have looked just as inept.

Maybe, however, their offense with Parker AND Hopkins would have looked better. That's the state of this team right now, their quarterback is mediocre with a mid-range (or slightly higher) ceiling, so they will need to be at least very good at other positions. The most obvious is WR. I'll repeat, they can NOT afford to lose Meyers from this offense, he's just been far too important. Then they need to upgrade (significantly) on Agholor. WR1 isn't nonsense when your quarterback is QB2-ish and you need to find ways to get your offense moving.

I like Parker and Bourne. Bring back Meyers and sign (or trade for) a legit WR1. Plus the Stevenson running game and they'll be in business (unless Mac is horrible).

 

[Wozzy]

People need to take a closer look at Kirk Cousins career numbers before they start comparing Mac to him. Apparently a lot of people will be really surprised at how good Cousins looks (on paper at least).

With the exception of a few games every season Kirk Cousins didn't become a full-time starter until year four of his career, Mac was a starter as a rookie. They are of similar height, weight and have similar arm strength. Here are the first three years of Kirk's career versus Mac's rookie year.



What am I missing?

 

[Ian]

their quarterback is mediocre

 

[crawhammer]

An offense can get the ball out faster and limit opponents ability to pressure them. They can use scheme like screens, draw plays and counter run plays to offset what an opponent is trying to accomplish with their pass rush.

What a QB can’t do is make bad offensive linemen (or other players) look good. For a large majority of his career Tom had good to great offensive lines in front of him and when he didn’t the team failed. We’re talking real life here, not some fanboys wet dream.

lol

Come on, a quarterback can recognize and read the defense pre-snap, he can adjust protection at the LOS, he can audible out of a bad play, he can hit a hot receiver, he can have a quick release, he can have good pocket mobility... should I keep going? Look, Brady for example excelled at everything I just mentioned. He made his o-lines look better over his entire career. No question about it.

 

[crawhammer]

I hope Mac has 50 TDs next season. However, his TD% last season was 29th in the NFL and he was only a head of Mayfield, Ryan, Zach Wilson, and Pickett. He had a 2.5 INT%, 23rd in the NFL, bad. His passer rating was 26th, below Fields (who I'm told can't hit the broad side of a barn), and slightly above Russell Wilson (who fell off a massive cliff this season). Right now, Mac is mediocre at best.

 

[Wozzy]

Maybe, however, their offense with Parker AND Hopkins would have looked better. That's the state of this team right now, their quarterback is mediocre with a mid-range (or slightly higher) ceiling, so they will need to be at least very good at other positions. The most obvious is WR. I'll repeat, they can NOT afford to lose Meyers from this offense, he's just been far too important. Then they need to upgrade (significantly) on Agholor. WR1 isn't nonsense when your quarterback is QB2-ish and you need to find ways to get your offense moving.

The state of the Patriot offense entering 2022 we now know was total chaos. The QB was "mediocre" because the scheme and play calling was horrid... the entire offense was mediocre.

He was better than mediocre as a rookie and I don't even buy into the nonsense that Josh McDaniels was some offensive genius. Derek Carr just had the worst statistical season of his recent career with Josh as his play caller, this after the team went out and bought him Devante Adams and with Josh Jacobs in a free agency year running like his hair was on fire.

He had multiple #1 receivers. Weapons won't fix bad scheme, bad design or predictability... weapons won't fix poor coaching. The Patriots offense led the league in pre-snap penalties... they couldn't even line up and snap the ball.

I like Parker and Bourne. Bring back Meyers and sign (or trade for) a legit WR1. Plus the Stevenson running game and they'll be in business (unless Mac is horrible).

I like Meyers at the right price... don't overpay. The cap is real.

If you can find a great deal on the open market like Randy Moss for a 4th round pick or Deandre Hopkins for nothing that can improve your team immeasurably you do it. Otherwise you find great weapons from within by developing Thornton and Marcus Jones into weapons. A team that has 5 very good WR's is better than a team with a #1 making all the money and a bunch of scrubs. The NFL is about mismatches and using all the tools in your tool box. Randy Moss, Julio Jones and Calvin Johnson... what do they all have in common... no rings. It takes a team.

 

[Nehalem]

People need to take a closer look at Kirk Cousins career numbers before they start comparing Mac to him. Apparently a lot of people will be really surprised at how good Cousins looks (on paper at least).

Mac Jones would probably look a lot better if he was throwing to Stefon Diggs and Justin Jefferson too.

 

[crawhammer]

And yet fans on their board still want to get rid of him and find someone else. Again, not an exclusive behavior to here, which was the point I was making.

And Allen had an elbow injury for the majority of last season, a fact that most of them still dismissed, which for a bunch of people who dive on tables, doesn't surprise me.

I've never set eyes on a Bills message board and won't anytime soon. But they're a bunch of mental defectives if they're actually calling for Allen to be traded. ****ing idiots, he's the second or third best quarterback in the NFL.

 

[Ian]

Right now, Mac is mediocre at best.

I'm noticing you're not a big fan of context, nuances, etc. It's incredibly frustrating.

 

[crawhammer]

Mac Jones would probably look a lot better if he was throwing to Stefon Diggs and Justin Jefferson too.

Of course. But that's not really saying much.

 

[Wozzy]

lol

Come on, a quarterback can recognize and read the defense pre-snap, he can adjust protection at the LOS, he can audible out of a bad play, he can hit a hot receiver, he can have a quick release, he can have good pocket mobility... should I keep going? Look, Brady for example excelled at everything I just mentioned. He made his o-lines look better over his entire career. No question about it.

The coordinator can call plays that put the QB in a position to get the ball out faster rather than dropping back into five step drops. Reid just did that for Mahomes exceptionally well in the Super Bowl. Receivers can be aware of pass rush and find open spots on the field to give QB's an easy outlet in case of pressure.

Giving the QB all the credit for everything is your stock and trade. Brady couldn't fix bad offensive line coaching back in 2015 when the Broncos were knocking him around because the line coach didn't have them ready for the silent snap count in the playoffs... it literally got Dave DeGuglielmo fired. Brady can't fix bad line play, and again... the Patriots were one of the best rushing teams in the league for two decades... Tom had nothing to do with their ability to run block, which is a far better indicator of toughness and skill.

 

[Wozzy]

I hope Mac has 50 TDs next season. However, his TD% last season was 29th in the NFL and he was only a head of Mayfield, Ryan, Zach Wilson, and Pickett. He had a 2.5 INT%, 23rd in the NFL, bad. His passer rating was 26th, below Fields (who I'm told can't hit the broad side of a barn), and slightly above Russell Wilson (who fell off a massive cliff this season). Right now, Mac is mediocre at best.

You're pretending 2022 was a normal year for Patriot offense so you can knock the player.

Every offensive player on the team had one of the worst seasons of their individual careers.

Why are you being so blatantly and willfully ignorant, if not to push a "Mac sucks" agenda?

 

[crawhammer]

I'm noticing you're not a big fan of context, nuances, etc. It's incredibly frustrating.

Sorry. I thought I made a decent argument by pointing out some facts. Oh well.

I don't think Mac sucks. He's had some really good moments and there's something there to build upon. His ceiling (as I imagine it to be based on what I've seen to date) is concerning, especially when looking at the extraordinary quarterback talent in the conference.

I'm willing to have an open mind heading into next season because there were some disadvantageous circumstances last season and O'Brien should have a favorable impact on the entire offense moving forward. Mac needs a really good WR group as well and I'm concerned about that too (especially with Meyers possibly leaving via FA and the team already needing an upgrade at WR1).

 

[Wozzy]

I've never set eyes on a Bills message board and won't anytime soon. But they're a bunch of mental defectives if they're actually calling for Allen to be traded. ****ing idiots, he's the second or third best quarterback in the NFL.

Allen sucked balls his first two season's in the league, he got progressively better from year one to year two to year three... but he took time to develop. He did look like a bust his first couple seasons.

Some players take time to develop. In discussing Mac you sound like those Bill's fans saying Josh Allen will never be good enough early on.

 

[crawhammer]

With the exception of a few games every season Kirk Cousins didn't become a full-time starter until year four of his career, Mac was a starter as a rookie. They are of similar height, weight and have similar arm strength. Here are the first three years of Kirk's career versus Mac's rookie year.

What am I missing?

That's great but Kirk has been a full-time starter for 8 seasons now.

Kirk Cousins:

5.2 TD%
2.2 INT%
66.8 comp%
7.6 Y/A
262 Y/G
97.8 passer rating

Mac Jones:

3.7 TD%
2.5 INT%
66.5 comp%
7.1 Y/A
219 Y/G
89.0 passer rating

Cousins is better everywhere and a lot better in some categories. If Mac can elevate his game to Cousins level then he will have significantly improved on his first two seasons (which would be a good thing).

 

[Ian]

Sorry. I thought I made a decent argument by pointing out some facts. Oh well.

No, you didn't make a decent argument. You coughed up some numbers, threw out Kirk Cousins, and then dismissed everything that went on here last season, and all the context behind their collective issues as a whole. And then you dismissed Wozzy's response when he showed you Cousins's numbers, who BTW - has also never played for an offensive coordinator who had never been an offensive coordinator - because it ruined your narrative.

Last season had a lot of things wrong that went beyond the quarterback. That's why the team addressed both (OC and OL coaches) this offseason.

I don't think Mac sucks.

You called him mediocre. Twice.

Mac needs a really good WR group as well and I'm concerned about that too (especially with Meyers possibly leaving via FA and the team already needing an upgrade at WR1).

Finally, something we at least agree on.