The Belichick era all UDFA team

[Patsgofor4]

Bill's been here long enough, and has been particularly successful with finding talented UDFAs, that I believe you could construct an entire functional roster with only UDFA finds. Going through the history, here is the best roster of players that I could construct composed strictly of players who came here directly from college as UDFAs without first being with any other team. (So, for example, no Danny Woodhead since he was briefly with the Jets first).

QB Brian Hoyer, Matt Gutierrez
RB Benjarvus Green-Ellis, Brandon Bolden, JJ Taylor, DJ Foster
FB James Develin, Jakob Johnson
WR Jakobi Meyers, Kenbrell Thompkins, Chris Harper, Isiaih Zuber
TE Jacob Hollister, Zach Sudfeld
T Cole Croston,
G Joe Andruzzi, Stephen Neal, Dan Connolly, Chris Barker, Josh Kline
C David Andrews, Ryan Wendell

DT Adam Butler, Kyle Love, Woodrow Hamilton
DE Mike Wright, Joe Vellano, Keionta Davis
LB Gary Guyton, Pierre Woods, Matt Chatham, Dane Fletcher, Harvey Langi, Terez Hall, Rashod Berry
CB Malcolm Butler, JC Jackson, Jonathan Jones, Randall Gay, Justin Coleman, Kenny Moore, Myles Bryant
S Sergio Brown, Bret Lockett, Brandon King

K Robbie Gould
P Ryan Allen
LS Lonnie Paxton
KR/PR Gunner Olszewski

Did I miss anyone or include anyone who shouldn't be here? Would this roster, with every player playing at his peak, beat the Jets most years?

That CB group is so effing good.

 

[slam]

I understand the can of worms. It’s easy to outline BB’s team building strategy as it’s it has many consistent parts to it. Their EXACT details are still up in the air. And what we see as fails (ex : Harry), BB might not think that way. He could (though it’s not sure dire by ANY means) make the argument that Harry’s blocking is much more key than what fans see…. I still suspect he’d maybe a hard time explaining what his face mask was doing Monday night, but…

Unlike others, I don't care when the Pats draft a guy that busts. That happens to every team. Oh well. My puzzlements are more macro. When you look at the Pats' draft history, they invest far less draft capital into WR than other positions, both quality and quantity. Compared to OL, DB, and DL.

I understand their hesitancy into spending high draft picks at WR very often. It's hard to project what WRs will get our system and which will struggle. So that's why they tend to go for veteran WRs that have already shown aptitude for grasping pro offenses like Agholor, Bourne, Antonio Brown, Amendola, Welker, etc. What I don't understand is why they haven't organizationally gone for a quantity approach at WR, continually throwing a 6th or 7th round WR into the mix every other draft, sometimes multiple, like they do with OL. Have them be special teams contributors for a few years while hoping they catch onto the offense. But I guess it shows how much Bill values OL in general over WR just in general, and the success speaks for itself.

 

[Wozzy]

Fans make such a big deal out of the draft and what round a player was taken.. like seriously. In the old days the draft would last fifteen rounds, a lot of Hall Of Fame players, some of the biggest names in history would not get drafted if the amount of picks that exist today did back then. Troy Brown was an 8th round pick... the 8th round doesn't exist today, he would have been an UDFA by today's standards. So would Roger Staubach taken in the tenth round. Who cares?

In 2019 BB came away from that offseason with Jakobi Meyers and an All Pro punt returner WR in Gunner... all the "BB sucks" moaners could talk about this offseason was N'Keal Harry. One busted draft pick didn't cause 2020, it was a culmination of going all in to win from 2014-2019... or what the Patriots thought were Tom's last days. If they knew Tom was going to defy time maybe they wouldn't have gone all in to win in the time span and those 2014-2019 teams would look a lot different... maybe they'd have fewer rings... like they did from 2005-2013.

BB moaners complain about 2017 as a "bad" draft class... they didn't draft anyone... or barely did. Rookies wouldn't have contributed or improved those teams. That 2017 team lost the Super Bowl because of defensive injuries, not because they didn't have enough talent. You can only roster 53 guys and any drafted players hidden on practice squads would get poached, other teams aren't that dumb.

And just for perspective, for those that insist that "weapons" are what win games... along with running back and defensive line WR's have the highest failure rate in the draft. That's why the Pat's largely haven't drafted WR's... and why those they did often failed.

 

[Ring 6]

...and your point is?

Isn’t it obvious?

 

[doesntmatter1]

I saw Gary Guyton and I got triggered. Good chance I'm still the president of his hate club. Dude was garbage. The most sluggish lb I have ever seen, but he somehow ran a 4.50 40dash.

 

[stinkypete]

Here's a good analysis that compares total draft return to draft capital from 2010 - 2019. It ranks the Patriots 8th overall over this time frame. The other teams near the top of the list are not surprising- Seattle, Dallas (tells you all you need to know about the value of coaching), Pittsburgh, Green Bay, KC, NO, Baltimore. The teams at the bottom, the Jets, Cleveland, Tampa, Tennessee, Jacksoville, also not surprising.

What is interesting is that the Patriots 2017 draft ranked as the worst of the decade, and their 2017 - 2019 drafts combined to be 6th worst. This speaks to the quality and role of drafting overall from 2010 - 2015 in building the second wave of the dynasty. It also explains 2020 pretty well.

I think this is also notable because so much draft capital was spent acquiring veterans during the later part of the decade. From 2016 - 2020 they spent significant draft capital on Martellus Bennett, Eric Rowe, Barkevious Mingo, Kyle Van Noy, Kony Ealy, Brandin Cooks, Cassius Marsh, Dwayne Allen, Trent Brown, Jason McCourty, Michael Bennett, Russel Bodine, Jermaine Elumanour, Corey Cunningham and Muhammad Sanu. Now, there are plenty of busts in this list (particularly when you get to the 2019 deals), but there are a ton of integral players from 3 Super Bowl teams and 2 champions.

It makes an interesting study case for the value of using draft capital to select a prospect vs. trading for an established player. In the case of the Patriots, you could argue that this formula was responsible for both prolonging and (temporarily) killing a dynasty.

NFL Drafting Efficiency, 2010-2019

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Here's a good analysis that compares total draft return to draft capital from 2010 - 2019. It ranks the Patriots 8th overall over this time frame. The other teams near the top of the list are not surprising- Seattle, Dallas (tells you all you need to know about the value of coaching), Pittsburgh, Green Bay, KC, NO, Baltimore. The teams at the bottom, the Jets, Cleveland, Tampa, Tennessee, Jacksoville, also not surprising.

What is interesting is that the Patriots 2017 draft ranked as the worst of the decade, and their 2017 - 2019 drafts combined to be 6th worst. This speaks to the quality and role of drafting overall from 2010 - 2015 in building the second wave of the dynasty. It also explains 2020 pretty well.

I think this is also notable because so much draft capital was spent acquiring veterans during the later part of the decade. From 2016 - 2020 they spent significant draft capital on Martellus Bennett, Eric Rowe, Barkevious Mingo, Kyle Van Noy, Kony Ealy, Brandin Cooks, Cassius Marsh, Dwayne Allen, Trent Brown, Jason McCourty, Michael Bennett, Russel Bodine, Jermaine Elumanour, Corey Cunningham and Muhammad Sanu. Now, there are plenty of busts in this list (particularly when you get to the 2019 deals), but there are a ton of integral players from 3 Super Bowl teams and 2 champions.

It makes an interesting study case for the value of using draft capital to select a prospect vs. trading for an established player. In the case of the Patriots, you could argue that this formula was responsible for both prolonging and (temporarily) killing a dynasty.

NFL Drafting Efficiency, 2010-2019

Exactly.

2009-2012 drafts were amazing. 2013-2019 drafts were poor and why BB retiring is my worst nightmare for who would replace him.

.

 

[pazrul72]

Unlike others, I don't care when the Pats draft a guy that busts. That happens to every team. Oh well. My puzzlements are more macro. When you look at the Pats' draft history, they invest far less draft capital into WR than other positions, both quality and quantity. Compared to OL, DB, and DL.

I understand their hesitancy into spending high draft picks at WR very often. It's hard to project what WRs will get our system and which will struggle. So that's why they tend to go for veteran WRs that have already shown aptitude for grasping pro offenses like Agholor, Bourne, Antonio Brown, Amendola, Welker, etc. What I don't understand is why they haven't organizationally gone for a quantity approach at WR, continually throwing a 6th or 7th round WR into the mix every other draft, sometimes multiple, like they do with OL. Have them be special teams contributors for a few years while hoping they catch onto the offense. But I guess it shows how much Bill values OL in general over WR just in general, and the success speaks for itself.

It’s a simple matter of supply and demand based on body types. I’m 6’4 and in the top 1% of the world in height. That’s like 700 million people. Now add being a 300+ lb guy with enough athletic ability to pull and fire off the ball. Plus with all of the blitzing and fronts offensive lineman are some of the smartest guys on the field. I got the 300 lb part and can lift a small car but I sucked and was 3rd string on my high school football team because I have about a 4 inch vertical jump. I have zero explosion or burst so guys would just get off the line before me and just go right around me like I wasn’t there. My point is there might be 1000 guys in the world that can play offensive line at an NFL level. That number is probably closer to 100,000 that can play RB or WR. So getting the 500th best o lineman is more valuable then getting the 50,000th best wr/rb/cb etc. The one position I would say is harder to fill is QB but that’s more mental and processing speed so it’s worth taking a shot on upside and a guy you like anywhere. if I ran a team I would take one every year cuz worst case I get two franchise QBs and get a fortune of draft picks from another team.

 

[TomPatriot]

One tiny moan. Joe Andruzzi was signed by the Packers before going to the Patriots.

He was one tough SOB, from Totenville High School on Staten Island in NYC.

 

[BTTA]

Bill's been here long enough, and has been particularly successful with finding talented UDFAs, that I believe you could construct an entire functional roster with only UDFA finds. Going through the history, here is the best roster of players that I could construct composed strictly of players who came here directly from college as UDFAs without first being with any other team. (So, for example, no Danny Woodhead since he was briefly with the Jets first).

QB Brian Hoyer, Matt Gutierrez
RB Benjarvus Green-Ellis, Brandon Bolden, JJ Taylor, DJ Foster
FB James Develin, Jakob Johnson
WR Jakobi Meyers, Kenbrell Thompkins, Chris Harper, Isiaih Zuber
TE Jacob Hollister, Zach Sudfeld
T Cole Croston,
G Joe Andruzzi, Stephen Neal, Dan Connolly, Chris Barker, Josh Kline
C David Andrews, Ryan Wendell

DT Adam Butler, Kyle Love, Woodrow Hamilton
DE Mike Wright, Joe Vellano, Keionta Davis
LB Gary Guyton, Pierre Woods, Matt Chatham, Dane Fletcher, Harvey Langi, Terez Hall, Rashod Berry
CB Malcolm Butler, JC Jackson, Jonathan Jones, Randall Gay, Justin Coleman, Kenny Moore, Myles Bryant
S Sergio Brown, Bret Lockett, Brandon King

K Robbie Gould
P Ryan Allen
LS Lonnie Paxton
KR/PR Gunner Olszewski

Did I miss anyone or include anyone who shouldn't be here? Would this roster, with every player playing at his peak, beat the Jets most years?

You have to go by the stats here, and select Dan Connolly for punt returner over Olszewski. Much, much higher average.

EDIT: Kick returner. That's Connolly's specialty.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I saw Gary Guyton and I got triggered. Good chance I'm still the president of his hate club. Dude was garbage. The most sluggish lb I have ever seen, but he somehow ran a 4.50 40dash.

Reminds me of Bentley

 

[Nehalem]

Bill's been here long enough, and has been particularly successful with finding talented UDFAs, that I believe you could construct an entire functional roster with only UDFA finds. Going through the history, here is the best roster of players that I could construct composed strictly of players who came here directly from college as UDFAs without first being with any other team. (So, for example, no Danny Woodhead since he was briefly with the Jets first).

QB Brian Hoyer, Matt Gutierrez
RB Benjarvus Green-Ellis, Brandon Bolden, JJ Taylor, DJ Foster
FB James Develin, Jakob Johnson
WR Jakobi Meyers, Kenbrell Thompkins, Chris Harper, Isiaih Zuber
TE Jacob Hollister, Zach Sudfeld
T Cole Croston,
G Joe Andruzzi, Stephen Neal, Dan Connolly, Chris Barker, Josh Kline
C David Andrews, Ryan Wendell

DT Adam Butler, Kyle Love, Woodrow Hamilton
DE Mike Wright, Joe Vellano, Keionta Davis
LB Gary Guyton, Pierre Woods, Matt Chatham, Dane Fletcher, Harvey Langi, Terez Hall, Rashod Berry
CB Malcolm Butler, JC Jackson, Jonathan Jones, Randall Gay, Justin Coleman, Kenny Moore, Myles Bryant
S Sergio Brown, Bret Lockett, Brandon King

K Robbie Gould
P Ryan Allen
LS Lonnie Paxton
KR/PR Gunner Olszewski

Did I miss anyone or include anyone who shouldn't be here? Would this roster, with every player playing at his peak, beat the Jets most years?

So comparing to the 7-9 2020 Patriots

QB: Worse. Brian Hoyer couldn't even beat out Cam
RB: Worse
FB: Better.
WR: Worse. Chris Harper has got to be a worse #3 WR than Edelman, even when Edelman is on IR
TE: Worse
T: Worse. We appear to not even having a starting RT . And our
G: Worse
C: Same dude

DT: Worse. Guy > Love. Hamilton has 6 career tackles
DE: Worse. Wright is decent. But Vellano is a poor undersize DT playing out of position.
LB: Worse. Note Bentley is the only Pats LB to play more than 30% of snaps last year
CB: Worse. 2/3 of top 3 are the same. But Gilmore > Butler
S: Worse. Hopefully some of our CBs can play here

Honestly. This team is getting destroyed.

You take the 27th ranked offense. Downgrade at QB. Downgrade to a RB with 0 explosion. Downgrade at WR and TE . Downgrade at OL. Easily worst offense in the league.

On defense you would have some good CB. But other than that... yeah not good. And considering that your offense is going to be doing you 0 favors your defense is going to quickly tire out and be forced to play people who don't belong in the NFL.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

It’s a simple matter of supply and demand based on body types. I’m 6’4 and in the top 1% of the world in height. That’s like 700 million people. Now add being a 300+ lb guy with enough athletic ability to pull and fire off the ball. Plus with all of the blitzing and fronts offensive lineman are some of the smartest guys on the field. I got the 300 lb part and can lift a small car but I sucked and was 3rd string on my high school football team because I have about a 4 inch vertical jump. I have zero explosion or burst so guys would just get off the line before me and just go right around me like I wasn’t there. My point is there might be 1000 guys in the world that can play offensive line at an NFL level. That number is probably closer to 100,000 that can play RB or WR. So getting the 500th best o lineman is more valuable then getting the 50,000th best wr/rb/cb etc. The one position I would say is harder to fill is QB but that’s more mental and processing speed so it’s worth taking a shot on upside and a guy you like anywhere. if I ran a team I would take one every year cuz worst case I get two franchise QBs and get a fortune of draft picks from another team.

Parcells had a similar philosophy. Spend high draft picks on huge guys due to rarity and scarcity. I don't think it's 700M people btw but I know what you meant.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

It’s a simple matter of supply and demand based on body types. I’m 6’4 and in the top 1% of the world in height. That’s like 700 million people. Now add being a 300+ lb guy with enough athletic ability to pull and fire off the ball. Plus with all of the blitzing and fronts offensive lineman are some of the smartest guys on the field. I got the 300 lb part and can lift a small car but I sucked and was 3rd string on my high school football team because I have about a 4 inch vertical jump. I have zero explosion or burst so guys would just get off the line before me and just go right around me like I wasn’t there. My point is there might be 1000 guys in the world that can play offensive line at an NFL level. That number is probably closer to 100,000 that can play RB or WR. So getting the 500th best o lineman is more valuable then getting the 50,000th best wr/rb/cb etc. The one position I would say is harder to fill is QB but that’s more mental and processing speed so it’s worth taking a shot on upside and a guy you like anywhere. if I ran a team I would take one every year cuz worst case I get two franchise QBs and get a fortune of draft picks from another team.

Checking in at 6'4 200 ...

Most people never heard of George Young. He came up with "planet theory" I believe.

I use the example all the time when talking about RB's. Obviously not everyone can play but you'll ALWAYS find more bodies around 5'10 - 6'1 / 200-215 than 6'4 /300 + pounds.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

So comparing to the 7-9 2020 Patriots

QB: Worse. Brian Hoyer couldn't even beat out Cam
RB: Worse
FB: Better.
WR: Worse. Chris Harper has got to be a worse #3 WR than Edelman, even when Edelman is on IR
TE: Worse
T: Worse. We appear to not even having a starting RT . And our
G: Worse
C: Same dude

DT: Worse. Guy > Love. Hamilton has 6 career tackles
DE: Worse. Wright is decent. But Vellano is a poor undersize DT playing out of position.
LB: Worse. Note Bentley is the only Pats LB to play more than 30% of snaps last year
CB: Worse. 2/3 of top 3 are the same. But Gilmore > Butler
S: Worse. Hopefully some of our CBs can play here

Honestly. This team is getting destroyed.

You take the 27th ranked offense. Downgrade at QB. Downgrade to a RB with 0 explosion. Downgrade at WR and TE . Downgrade at OL. Easily worst offense in the league.

On defense you would have some good CB. But other than that... yeah not good. And considering that your offense is going to be doing you 0 favors your defense is going to quickly tire out and be forced to play people who don't belong in the NFL.

Team is way better
Imagine lining up and seeing Lacosse, Izzo, and Harry as your main guys

.

 

[Nehalem]

Team is way better
Imagine lining up and seeing Lacosse, Izzo, and Harry as your main guys

.

Except your main guys for the 2020 Patriots were Meyers and Byrd

And you do realize BB cut Jacob Hollister to keep Lacosse and Izzo.

Basically

Meyers - Byrd - Harry - Lacosse/Izzo > Meyers - Thompkins - Chris "I cost us HFA" Harper - Jacob "I got cut for Lacoss" Hollister

And the OL is no comparison. Your LT is a guy who made 5 NFL starts. And your RT is a guard playing out of position.

Then for RB instead of Harris/Michel you have LawFirm whose longest run with the Pats was 33 yards.

And you have Brian "I couldn't beat out Cam Newton's corpse" Hoyer as QB.

That offense would probably be one of the worst in NFL history.