The 2013 Prospect Thread

[Sciz]

Why would anyone be furious about drafting a good weakside linebacker at pick 29?

Because the Patriots have a great weakside linebacker right now. Subpackage linebackers are not guys you draft 29th overall. They're the guys you pick up as UDFAs and pay peanuts. See Guyton and Fletcher as examples.

 

[belichick010405]

Ok - could you elaborate a little bit because after watching the Ravens in the AFC Title Game, the linebacking corp could not cover a running back and tight end and I would to think that is not only a glaring hole but a hole that has to be fixed if the Pats are going to beat the Ravens next year.

Because we have glaring holes elsewhere that need to be addressed and we don't have enough picks to afford luxury selections.

 

[belichick010405]

LOL - that is funny. Dane Fletcher would not be in the NFL if it were not for the Patriots and last time I remembered, Fletcher was out for most of the year last year.

Because the Patriots have a great weakside linebacker right now. Subpackage linebackers are not guys you draft 29th overall. They're the guys you pick up as UDFAs and pay peanuts. See Guyton and Fletcher as examples.

 

[Sciz]

LOL - that is funny. Dane Fletcher would not be in the NFL if it were not for the Patriots and last time I remembered, Fletcher was out for most of the year last year.

Right. The Pats' subpackage LB was out for last year. That means they had to resort to Spikes and Hightower next to Mayo in subpackages. There's nothing wrong with a starting group of Mayo, Spikes, and Hightower, and they can get someone smaller and faster for their subpackages for a lot less than the 29th overall pick.

 

[belichick010405]

Ok - if and when Mayo, Hightower and/or Spikes get hurt, then who would be 3rd/4th in the Patriots depth chart at linebacker? As far as the starting group of Mayo, Spikes and Hightower, yes nothing wrong with that group against the run but when someone like Flacco or any good quarterback audibles, what then?

I would rather see a Bobby Wagner or Akeem Ayers-type linebacker play the weakside and rotate Hightower back to the middle since Spikes cannot cover and cannot stay healthy.

Right. The Pats' subpackage LB was out for last year. That means they had to resort to Spikes and Hightower next to Mayo in subpackages. There's nothing wrong with a starting group of Mayo, Spikes, and Hightower, and they can get someone smaller and faster for their subpackages for a lot less than the 29th overall pick.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Ok - if and when Mayo, Hightower and/or Spikes get hurt, then who would be 3rd/4th in the Patriots depth chart at linebacker? As far as the starting group of Mayo, Spikes and Hightower, yes nothing wrong with that group against the run but when someone like Flacco or any good quarterback audibles, what then?

I would rather see a Bobby Wagner or Akeem Ayers-type linebacker play the weakside and rotate Hightower back to the middle since Spikes cannot cover and cannot stay healthy.

Dane Fletcher.

 

[belichick010405]

Dane Fletcher.

Is nothing more than a special teams player...

 

[Sciz]

Ok - if and when Mayo, Hightower and/or Spikes get hurt, then who would be 3rd/4th in the Patriots depth chart at linebacker? As far as the starting group of Mayo, Spikes and Hightower, yes nothing wrong with that group against the run but when someone like Flacco or any good quarterback audibles, what then?

I would rather see a Bobby Wagner or Akeem Ayers-type linebacker play the weakside and rotate Hightower back to the middle since Spikes cannot cover and cannot stay healthy.

When Mayo, Hightower, or Spikes gets hurt, then Fletcher would play. When Fletcher was hurt last year, then Ninkovich moved to LB. They had two injuries at LB at times last year and had no major problems.

When the Pats were in their 4-3 against the Ravens, Mayo and Spikes gave up a total of 14 yards. There was none of this audibling to attack the LBs in coverage.

Another 38 passing yards were allowed by Spikes when he was the second subpackage linebacker in the 4-2-5 defense. Of those 38, 22 came on one 6-man blitz that left Spikes with no help on Pitta, which in my mind should have been an obvious situation to avoid. Spikes' day in coverage is a lot different if that play doesn't happen.

And even all of that is awfully minor in comparison to Cole's 62 yards, which came in far fewer snaps. I don't see why you would attack the LBs when Cole gave up basically as many yards as all the LBs combined in way fewer snaps. Both players are currently one injury away from seeing a lot of subpackage time. Why is a coverage LB a dire need and not more CB depth? Personally, I don't see either as anywhere near dire.

 

[belichick010405]

A 3rd party website is reporting that Sean Porter, OLB, Texas A & M, is going to have a workout with the Patriots. Another pass-rushing outside linebacker that is getting a closer look by the Patriots....He is projected to be drafted in the 3rd/4th round and was compared by NFL Draft Scout as a similar type player to Nick Barnett.

 

[JackBauer]

Ok - could you elaborate a little bit because after watching the Ravens in the AFC Title Game, the linebacking corp could not cover a running back and tight end and I would to think that is not only a glaring hole but a hole that has to be fixed if the Pats are going to beat the Ravens next year.

Sure. The Patriots need a starting WR, a depth WR, a starting DT, and a pass rusher more than they need a coverage linebacker. Moreover, I'm not going to evaluate Hightower's ceiling in coverage based on the existing evidence.

 

[belichick010405]

Thanks Jack.....I think that a couple of those needs are still going to be filled through free agency in the form of some combination of Lloyd/Edelman/Sanders or possibly a guy like Laurent Robinson/Danario Alexander at wide receiver and I am confident that you are going to like Armond Armstead a lot which provide a nice 1-2 punch at DT while still having very good depth with Love, Deadrick et al. They have two depth wideouts in Jenkins and Jones.

In terms of pass rusher, I agree and I think it needs to be re-stated how effective Ninkovich was last year and what Francis was showing at the end of the year last year. Plus - I think that we need to see what Bequette can bring to the table since he was a 3rd round choice. With that said - the secondary could be better if there was one more guy, preferably at linebacker, that could attack the line of scrimmage on the edge of the line since Hightower is a very good up-the-middle stunt blitzer.

Sure. The Patriots need a starting WR, a depth WR, a starting DT, and a pass rusher more than they need a coverage linebacker. Moreover, I'm not going to evaluate Hightower's ceiling in coverage based on the existing evidence.

 

[Brady6]

Thanks Jack.....I think that a couple of those needs are still going to be filled through free agency in the form of some combination of Lloyd/Edelman/Sanders or possibly a guy like Laurent Robinson/Danario Alexander at wide receiver and I am confident that you are going to like Armond Armstead a lot which provide a nice 1-2 punch at DT while still having very good depth with Love, Deadrick et al. They have two depth wideouts in Jenkins and Jones.

In terms of pass rusher, I agree and I think it needs to be re-stated how effective Ninkovich was last year and what Francis was showing at the end of the year last year. Plus - I think that we need to see what Bequette can bring to the table since he was a 3rd round choice. With that said - the secondary could be better if there was one more guy, preferably at linebacker, that could attack the line of scrimmage on the edge of the line since Hightower is a very good up-the-middle stunt blitzer.

Armstead is almost 6'6 between 280-300 pounds and he is lean, I suspect he will see more time at LDE in a base defense and only see time inside as a pass rusher in sub packages. I think we still need a starting defensive tackle and I would not be surprised to see us take Jessie Williams out of Alabama at 29.

 

[Wilfork#75]

Hopefully the guy to cover RBs and TEs in sub packages is Adrian Wilson. He might not have the legs to consistently cover the deep part of the field anymore, but I think he has enough left to perform this role better than any 'coverage' LBer we could acquire. Add in a healthy Fletcher and I think the whole coverage LBer thing is overrated.

 

[manxman2601]

I'd be absolutely fine drafting Ogletree at #29. People seem to forget that you don't just draft for the following year but potentially for a decade. With Spikes' contract up at the end of next year, a potential replacement for the LB corps is hardly a "luxury pick".

 

[Wilfork#75]

I'd be absolutely fine drafting Ogletree at #29. People seem to forget that you don't just draft for the following year but potentially for a decade. With Spikes' contract up at the end of next year, a potential replacement for the LB corps is hardly a "luxury pick".

Too many off the field concerns for me to risk taking him in the first. I'm all for taking chances on guys, but that high is just silly to me. Other than that I still think there is much better value trading back than taking just about anyone at 29. I really don't see a whole lot of difference in talent between 29 and 75.

 

[Yesares]

Exactly. We better bear in mind that BB very often use draft to file needs with, at least, one year anticipation. I believe that was the case with Hightower's pick last year: BB had selected Spikes substitute (starter MLB) with 2 years anticipation, so is very probably this year he picks next OLB starter in 2014.

I also would prefer Arthur Brown over Alec Ogletree because I'm afraid Ogletree will be a nutcase (off-field troubles: was suspended first four games 2012 games for violation team rules -allegedly drug use- and recently has been charged for DUI). Ogletree probably has more upside than Brown, but right now, IMHO, Brown is more NFL suited.

 

[manxman2601]

Too many off the field concerns for me to risk taking him in the first. I'm all for taking chances on guys, but that high is just silly to me. Other than that I still think there is much better value trading back than taking just about anyone at 29. I really don't see a whole lot of difference in talent between 29 and 75.

Well that's something that can only be apparent in an interview which we're obviously not privy too. If BB is comfortable taking him at 29, we're not really in a position to argue.

It's not his off the field issues that bother me - we have a team of drug addled players - it's his ability to learn the system and be disciplined within it.

 

[Wilfork#75]

Well that's something that can only be apparent in an interview which we're obviously not privy too. If BB is comfortable taking him at 29, we're not really in a position to argue.

It's not his off the field issues that bother me - we have a team of drug addled players - it's his ability to learn the system and be disciplined within it.

You are right, but from the information we know I wouldn't be comfortable taking him. The difference between Ogeltree and the guys we have drafted in the past, is that while Hernandez and Spikes may have made some bad decisions, they were never suspended. I don't really care what players do in their personal lives because they are adults and are entitled to make their own decisions. But when these decisions impact the football team I have an issue. Spikes and Hernandez never let down their teammates, their coaches or their fans while at Florida. Ogletree was not only suspended 4 games in 2012, he then got a DUI after the season. To me that kid just ain't too bright. What is he going to do when he has millions of dollars in his pockets. 3rd or 4th round I would take that kind of risk, but not in the 1st.

Now Spikes is probably a similar character, but his troubles came after he was already on the team. We didn't have to weigh up whether or not he was worthy of a 1st round pick. And we will see next year how the organisation really feels about him. To me there are just way too many questions around Ogletree to value him as a 1st rounder, and its not just character, its also need and value. I don't know I would even wan't him at 29 even if he was clean.

 

[manxman2601]

You are right, but from the information we know I wouldn't be comfortable taking him. The difference between Ogeltree and the guys we have drafted in the past, is that while Hernandez and Spikes may have made some bad decisions, they were never suspended. I don't really care what players do in their personal lives because they are adults and are entitled to make their own decisions. But when these decisions impact the football team I have an issue. Spikes and Hernandez never let down their teammates, their coaches or their fans while at Florida. Ogletree was not only suspended 4 games in 2012, he then got a DUI after the season. To me that kid just ain't too bright. What is he going to do when he has millions of dollars in his pockets. 3rd or 4th round I would take that kind of risk, but not in the 1st.

Now Spikes is probably a similar character, but his troubles came after he was already on the team. We didn't have to weigh up whether or not he was worthy of a 1st round pick. And we will see next year how the organisation really feels about him. To me there are just way too many questions around Ogletree to value him as a 1st rounder, and its not just character, its also need and value. I don't know I would even wan't him at 29 even if he was clean.

Fair enough. I know I would - he was being projected as a top 10 pick before his DUI (ESPN still have him at 12). That's a lot of value to turn down.

 

[Wilfork#75]

Fair enough. I know I would - he was being projected as a top 10 pick before his DUI (ESPN still have him at 12). That's a lot of value to turn down.

That all depends on your evaluation of him as a player. I think he's a late 1st round talent as it is for this team, not taking into account the off field stuff. But we all have different evaluations on players which is why we have such a great community here with such great discussion.