SPEC-U-LA-TION: The death knell for Ben Watson?

[pats63]

or mayber the coverage was not as tight because the main passing threat of watson was on the bench with an injury and the rookie TE was not considered dangerous.

Yeah man you are right.....Now they are going to zero on Thomas......Yeah Thomas is looking good....Just think of the options with three good TE.....Other defense going to say WTF

 

[jczxohn1]

We need three TE's. If Watson or Graham goes, bb would likely draft a TE in the first round yet again. Watson is not going anywhere. What's the point? Wouldn't everyone like him at least as the #3 TE?

:yeahthat:
Armen still thinks Buckner cost the Sox the Series.

 

[alamo]

Armen, according to NFL.com - One fumble lost in 2006. That would be a handful for Captain Hook.

Armen has *really* small hands. Wonder if the old tale about the size of one's hands indicating the size of something else is true?

Actually, I at least applaud Armen for clearly marking his post speculation, even if it was only because last time he got slammed for posting a misleading title.

 

[Alk]

do you actually have anything of value to contribute?

That's funny you should say that. Don't you have another NEM thread to start or something?

 

[Digger44]

That's funny you should say that. Don't you have another NEM thread to start or something?

oh did the anus let you out tonight?

 

[VJCPatriot]

What are you smoking. After 1 game Dave Thomas is good as Casper? You're talking about a hall of famer there.

As BB says it is what it is. And as Tuna says put away the anointing oils.
Either way you look at it. We have to see a lot MORE of Dave Thomas before we can make a proper evaluation.

As for Watson - he's out hurt right now. So this speculation is just that - really empty, pointless speculation.

 

[patpatriot]

Empty pointless speculation? So what? This is the Cyber equivelant of the local bar. Speculate ayway! Anyway for you Watson enthusiasts, here's a snippet from Breers coulmn:

– TE David Thomas, as we’ve said before, is a keeper. And not only is he a smooth, natural receiver, he can be a devastating blocker too. On both Dillon and Maroney’s touchdowns, he threw beautiful hits to seal the outside of the defense, and he seems to have a good understanding of how to get low and engage a defender. Is he already better than Benjamin Watson? Well, he just might be. He never seems to fight the ball as a receiver the way Watson does at times and he may already be better in the running game.

 

[Ring 6]

I like Thomas, and I think he will be effective for us for years. If you watched him at Texas, its a matter of when not if he can be a big contributor in the passing game. And no, one game does not mean he is yet.
The thing about Thomas is he has a knack of getting open on exactly the type of routes you like to throw to a TE, and he has good agility making the catch.
All of that said, Watson is one of the best players on this team. He is going nowhere. A few fumbles are not reason to give up on a talent like Watson. Besides, if you watch him play, highlighted by the Denver play last year when he caught Bailey, you see effort is not an issue, which means he will work hard to correct the new found fumbling issue.
I hope Graham stays as well, because he is the best blocking TE in the NFL, and has speed, size and mobility to be a weapon in the passing game.

What seems to be misunderstood here is that our offense isn't really a "2 TE" offense, but one that employs a TE and an Hback. (Like the Gibbs offense, and a facet of Shanahans) So 2 of these 3 are starters, with the 3rd backing up both spots.
Graham has been used mostly over the years as a traditional TE, and Watson in both roles (plus an expanded role of playing split outside). The way I see it, if Graham comes back, he is our TE, Watson is our Hback (and is capable of playing that spot, traditional TE in true 2 TE sets, and as a "3rd WR" against a base D) You might as well call Watson a FB, because an Hback is basically a FB that lines up on the wing instead of the backfield. Teams will need to play base against that, and Watson can play 3 different spots to exploit that. Thomas backs up both.

 

[Ichiro]

The thing about Thomas is he has a knack of getting open on exactly the type of routes you like to throw to a TE, and he has good agility making the catch.
All of that said, Watson is one of the best players on this team. He is going nowhere. A few fumbles are not reason to give up on a talent like Watson. Besides, if you watch him play, highlighted by the Denver play last year when he caught Bailey, you see effort is not an issue, which means he will work hard to correct the new found fumbling issue.

I agree completely about your observation on Thomas. He shows traditional TE skills (catching the ball with his hands away from his body, coming back to the ball, sitting down in zone coverage) that I just love.

But I have to disagree about Watson. He is not one of the best players on the team. My issue with Watson is not the fumbles (although they hurt) but all of the fundamentals that he does not have down yet. I love his hustle, intelligence and the meaurables, but all of the techniques that Thomas seems to have are still missing. Maybe its the coaching (Graham is getting better, but he used to fight the ball like crazy), maybe the player but I don't know if most of these passing game fundamentals can be taught or are just instinct.

 

[patpatriot]

The openings that are available to catch the ball in the NFL are often unbeliev ably small (see NoodleArm's TD toss in the last Miami game if not the Thomas TD catch last Sunday). Some players can make that adjustment from college ball where there is a much greater margin for error and the very top echelon of the NFL where the margin for error can be miniscule. Effort plays aside, I think the jury is still out on Watson (especially since his blocking often leaves much to be desired.) It could be that he is a college-level "pass-catcher" and not a true NFL-level "football player". Take it from me folks...Thomas will be a very very good NFL tight end. "Dave Casper reborn"...hhhmmmm..it's a bit early for that but this site is not the first place I've heard that comparison being made.


This of couse is my own mindless and pointless speculation.

 

[thomas144]

Right now Comcast on Demand has the game of the week production of last year's Patriots/Jaguars playoff game and the thing that really struck me was that Watson was fumbling or dropping the ball (I forget which) in that game early in the game.

Then of course he had that amazing run against the defender with a cast on his arm, but still it was interesting to see he was having trouble holding onto the ball before this season.

 

[the taildragger]

Agreed that it's premature to cut our losses on Watson and that he deserves another season -- not to live up to the unrealistic expectations we all have for the guy, but for him to just find an adequate level of consistency in catching and protecting the ball.

He's had more opportunity to catch balls this year than any other player and the overall production is really indefensible. We've been more patient because he cost a first round pick...had Thomas been our #1 and played like Watson has all season long, he'd have spent just as much time on the bench as he has as the #3 guy.

Given his limited opportunities it's astonishing how naturally Thomas has fit in. If he were anywhere else we'd be talking about him like Whitten or Heaps.

nobody is going to argue that DT has the athletic ability to match Watson...who is in the conversation for best overall athlete in the entire league...but you have to start acknowledging that Thomas is potentially a better football player. THIS IS NOT BASED ON ONE GAME. Every time the guy is on the field he makes plays. He might actually be our most consistent performer -- and I guarantee you he will earn more and more playing time as a result. This is the ultimate meritocracy -- IMO, that's easily the most important attribute of the culture Bill has put in place. A top draft pick might get more opportunity in the short run, but in the end, it's not going to matter where you were drafted.

Ben is not getting phased out, and who knows what happens to Graham given all the money on the market next year...no matter how that situation plays out, Watson will continue to be a key component of our offense in 07 -- unless of course we decide to go back to INCORPORATING ACTUAL RECEIVERS...bottom line is this...given our RIDICULOUS strength of schedule in 2007, if you go into the season with our current wealth of TEs but still with Reche and Troy and Jabar as the key receivers (how Jackson pans out is anyone's guess) it would be an amazing achievement to make the postseason...it would also piss off our QB to no end -- unless we actually do what we've always preached as an organization and, you know, spend to the cap!

The big picture is less about Thomas/Watson and more about the fact that it makes no sense for either guy to be our leading receiver.

Bill has to know how close we are to being ridiculously dominant...of course we have some areas on defense we can address depending on how the cards fall in the draft, but all things being equal, there's just no way you can focus on that UNTIL you've first surrounded our best player with at least one legit weapon at WR.

But they're not benching Watson simply because he's been a disappointment/underachiever...he's good enough to be in the rotation in my opinion...he's just not the threat we all hoped -- a guy who could carry/elevate a stable of #2/3 receivers. Keep in mind that even Antonio Gates, LT and Brees weren't enough to elevate Reche up the depth chart in San Diego.

If Ben was trending up I'd hold out hope that he'd eventually become an elite TE who could beat coverage no matter how frequently he was utilized -- perhaps it's a confidence issue that he can work through, or a switch will flick and he'll suddenly become more comfortable with the routes and adjustments than he looks right now...but it's time to stop pretending that Thomas isn't worthy of moving up the chart and earning more time out there...regardless of Ben's health.

The competition might be good for Watson...Gates was hardly a first rounder like Watson...Shannon Sharpe was another recent low round guy who one could make a legitimate HoF case for -- not to put Thomas in THAT category, but sometimes you have to light a fire under a top pick like Watson and that's where Thomas can add even more value.

Ben's certainly no primadonna, and he's had a great attitude since day one, but with apologies to Vermeil, it's time to take the diapers off.

 

[TruthSeeker]

"Armen, I think you're asking for perfection when excellence will do just fine. And I think we're going to see excellence from Ben Watson before this season is over."

I worry about this sentence, I don't think we will see Watson again this season. The way the Pats hide injuries, I would not be surprised to hear that Watson blew his knee out again, though I hope I'm very very wrong. I just got a sick feeling when I saw that hit. If I'm wrong, and I hope I am, I am drooling at the thought of Watson, Graham (if we sign him) and Thomas next year all contributing next year, If Watson is healthy, I have now worries about him whatsoever, I think he will be a star, regardless of the current fumble problems.

 

[DaBruinz]

Daniel Graham gets named a captain, which means look for a long-term deal any day now. He's a much better blocker than Watson and his hands are more than fine, plus he's like a runaway train when he gets motoring in the open field.

Dave "Triple With Cheese" Thomas is looking like the second coming of Dave Casper. A throwback "big white-guy" tight end who runs nice routes, is strong on the block on the move with the ball and throws the highlight reel catch in for good measure here and there.

Then, you've got poor, old "Slippery Hands" Watson.

Ben comes into what was supposed to be his "breakout season" and ends up becoming the king of the greasy-ball and then, to add insult to injury, just when his season is going south, he pulls up with some mysterious, candy-arse injury!

Make no mistake: Ben Watson is this generation's Marv Cook (the Pats tight end who was replaced by the legendary Ben Coates for you bandwagon jumpers and younger fans).

Just when you thought Old Watson was about to become a star, along comes Watson's own personal "Ben Coates" in the form of Dave Thomas and before you know it, the promise becomes a memory and he's playing for some cut-rate franchise somewhere!

(I think old Marv ended up with some very bad Bears teams!)

I see Watson and his fumble-itis out of here in the offseason while Beli-oli can still get something for him.

ADPF




PS:

By the way, is it just me or does Eric Mangini look like the kid you would have loved to beat the crap out of at a keg party after you and your buddies burnt some krippy and slammed a few greenies in high school!?!?!?!

ADPF-
If you are going to call people names you'd best make sure you have your own facts straight.

Mafv cook was a very good TE who was replaced by an even BETTER TE. However, it took 3 years for Coates to beat out Cook for the starting job.

Coates was let go by BB, I believe, prior to the 2000 season. That is when Coated joined the Ravens and they won the SB.

Now, as for your other speculation, I suggest you go back and review some of the fumbles. Not all of them were Watson's fault. Some were just damn good plays by the defense.

Watson is under contract through 2009. Given that he basically red-shirted his first year, one can't be too critical of him just yet.

Now, as for your claim of that Watson's injury is mysterious, I guess you don't watch the games. I can clearly remember Watson going down during the 2nd Half of the Dolphins game. They shown him with his right knee wrapped.

Speaking from experience, if you continue to play on an injured knee, your chances of tearing your ligaments are increased after a strain or sprain. So, while YOU (and others gripers) might not like that Watson is out, BB has justified reasoning for not playing Watson.

Thomas has had ONE good game so far. Yes, he stepped up when needed and he has shown that his blocking is improved, but it was one game.

Lastly, you may want to consider that Graham, though named as a captain, is still on the last year of his contract and Thomas and Mills were drafted as security for Graham leaving.

 

[DaBruinz]

Why is it pointless? Is it because it's HIS opinion of Watson and not yours? Try to get over yourself before the new year rolls in.

Its pointless because it wasn't the truth. Watson was hurt during the Miami game. It wasn't some mysterious injury as ADPF claimed. Sorry that you didn't realize that Alk.

Maybe you should follow your own advice before you go blasting others.

 

[DaBruinz]

So don't read them and don't reply!

What else can I say to you...

It's just my opinion...

Except its not an opinion. Its a falsehood. Its bogus. There is no truth to it.

1) Your analogy of Marv Cook to Ben Watson would only be valid if Thomas ends up being a Pro-Bowler and replaces Watson as a starter 2 years from now.
2) There was no mystery injury. Watson has a legitimate knee/leg injury.

 

[Deus Irae]

Define "legitimate".

There was cartilidge or tendon damage, as far as we know. And you and I don't know the truth, only what we're told.

So, then it comes down the individual and his personal threshold for pain and desire to play.

Steve Grogan played with a hyperextended knee, Butch Hobson played with bone chips in his elbow, Ellis Hobbs plays with a broken wrist every week, Ben Watson sits with a "knee injury". What was it exactly? A bruise? A hyperextension? We don't know, do we?

So, until the Patriots start releasing more detail, I am always going to side with the guys who play with pain as opposed to the guys who sit right awya.

And if you don't think there's a difference in how players handle pain, then look at the list above.

Everybody has a different threshold. SOme guys dive quick, some guys hang in.

I'll side with the guys that hang in every time.

And THAT brother, is my opinion!

ADPF

Brave, tough men play when hurt. Fools play when injured.

 

[DaBruinz]

Define "legitimate".

There was no cartilidge or tendon damage, as far as we know. And you and I don't know the truth, anyway, only what the KGB at 1 Patriots Place releases to us.

So, then it comes down the individual player and his personal threshold for pain and desire to play.

Steve Grogan played with a hyperextended knee, Butch Hobson played with bone chips in his elbow, Ellis Hobbs plays with a broken wrist every week, Larry Bird had to lay down on the sidelines his back was so bad, but he played, corerect?

And then here comes Ben Watson with a "knee injury" and he's out for three weeks down a very important stretch run.

What was the injury exactly? A bruise? A hyperextension? We don't know, do we?

So, until the Patriots start releasing more detail, I am always going to side with the guys who play with pain as opposed to the guys who sit right away.

And if you don't think there's a difference in how players handle pain, then look at the list above.

Everybody has a different threshold. Some guys dive quick, some guys hang in.

I'll side with the guys that hang in every time.

And THAT my brother, with all due respect, is my opinion!

ADPF

Obviously, you didn't watch the game and you didn't see him get injured. Not just hurt. INJURED. He didn't take another snap the entire game. And he's been out since. I will take BB listing him as questionable and sitting him down over your opinion of what reality is.

What is pretty ironic is you saying that everyone has a different threshold of pain, but then blasting Watson for not being on the field. Though you haven't come right out and said you, you obviously did NOT watch the Miami game and didn't see Watson get injured. So, you are pretty much talking out your rear end.

 

[Armen Da Pats Fan]

Obviously, you didn't watch the game and you didn't see him get injured. Not just hurt. INJURED. He didn't take another snap the entire game. And he's been out since. I will take BB listing him as questionable and sitting him down over your opinion of what reality is.

What is pretty ironic is you saying that everyone has a different threshold of pain, but then blasting Watson for not being on the field. Though you haven't come right out and said you, you obviously did NOT watch the Miami game and didn't see Watson get injured. So, you are pretty much talking out your rear end.

My man, I watch EVERY Pats game just like we all do!

Sometimes on TiVO, sometimes live. And usually break down film one or twice during the week. (I know, I need some hobbies - my wife tells me the same thing! "You're watching the Pats game AGAIN?!?!?!?)

Watson took a hit to the knee, yes. And over the course of any football game, about 20-25 players take hits to the knee.

That says nothing. Have all those other players missed three weeks?

And Watson's knee injury is only a small part of his train ticket out of Foxboro. The bigger issue is his fumbilitis and his general lack of unfulfilled potential.

In the end, it's all spec anyway.

We're just fans, one's opinion no better than the next. I respect your opionion even if I don't disagree.

For me, I tend to be one who is very hard on guys who miss weeks behind ticky-tacky injuries. Call it my burden, if you will!

ADPF

 

[Armen Da Pats Fan]

Brave, tough men play when hurt. Fools play when injured.

You ever see the movie "The Program"?

(Great flick!)

At one point, the new freshman running back, played by Omar Epps, gets injured in practice, and the coach, James Caan, asks him:

"Are you hurt or are you injured?"

Epps replies: "What's the difference?"

Caan says: "If you're hurt, you can play. If you're injured, you can't!"

So, I ask Slippery Palms the same question: "Are you hurt or are you injured?"

'Cause if you're hurt, shoot some friggin cortisone in the knee, get out on the field, earn your millions and stop fumblin the GAHD-DAMM ball!

If you're injured on the other hand, you better read up on the career of Marv Cook because 'Triple With Cheese" is hungering for your roster spot!