So, @RapSheet tells us Julian Edelman could be worth $7M/year on the open market

[JackBauer]

Re: Edelman's Contract negotiations



Why wouldn't you put this in the other Edelman thread? And please stop characterizing anything other than effusive praise for Edelman as hatred.

 

[dales804]

Re: Edelman's Contract negotiations

Is it a case of posters "hating" him or thinking it's just too high a price for the Patriots to pay for him? You have to take everything into account when giving a contract. He performed well last year, no doubt, and is a valuable part of the team. He also has a history of injuries, though. And he caught a lot of balls last year because of the state of the offense. Kudos to him for performing when it counts most (contract year) and setting himself up for a big payday. He deserves it. But whether that comes from NE remains to be seen.

 

[supafly]

Re: Edelman's Contract negotiations

I know people like Deus Ire hate him along with the DA lovers, but i'll be very happy when we re-sign him.

In the future, you may want to think twice about personally calling someone out. It's just unnecessary--unless of course, you're in the middle of a pissing match; where it's probably still unnecessary, but at least can be explained and understood, as we've all been there.

In this example, you may even be wrong anyway, as I have yet to hear Deus either "hate" on Edelman, nor overly praise Amendola. I think taking all of the variables into account for both players, and keeping mind of the WR situation this year are important in this context.

Most of us HOPE they retain Edelman, but there are some like myself who do not believe that he would receive 7m per year from anyone, let alone N.England. I can reasonably say that 5m per year may be appropriate, depending on if another team decides to open up their checkbook or not. 5m per year is much different from 7m.

 

[Deus Irae]

He was this last season.






Did I mention how well he produced in the Patriots system? I think I did, yet you chose to completely ignore it.





How is that irrelevant? Au contraire, it's very relevant.




No I did not... I never said to break the bank for Edelman. Considering his injury history, 6$ is the max I would go.



That is NOT the Patriots offense of the next season. The TE can't stay healthy, the Slot WR can't stay healthy, WR1/WR2 total unknowns without Edelman, the receiving RB also can't stay healthy, not to mention that half the time he has stone hands.



100/1000. When he is healthy

Ok, so you're basically going with unicorns and walkable rainbows instead of reality. Got it.

 

[SalemPats]

Re: Edelman's Contract negotiations

In the future, you may want to think twice about personally calling someone out. It's just unnecessary--unless of course, you're in the middle of a pissing match; where it's probably still unnecessary, but at least can be explained and understood, as we've all been there.

In this example, you may even be wrong anyway, as I have yet to hear Deus either "hate" on Edelman, nor overly praise Amendola. I think taking all of the variables into account for both players, and keeping mind of the WR situation this year are important in this context.

Most of us HOPE they retain Edelman, but there are some like myself who do not believe that he would receive 7m per year from anyone, let alone N.England. I can reasonably say that 5m per year may be appropriate, depending on if another team decides to open up their checkbook or not. 5m per year is much different from 7m.

6M is the Welker/Hartline/DA/Stevie Johnson group (about 20-25 in WR salaries, those on rookie contracts are paid less, so it's probably a salary of the 30th best WR). He's going to get paid by someone. I would rather give 6M to someone who has a connection with TB then let him go and go with DA who just isn't good enough (don't forget that he had 0 catches in the AFCG).

 

[mgteich]

OK. let's see what we think.

I think that Amendola is solid slot receiver, and our starting slot receiver. I don't expect him to take a "leap" to being all all-pro. I simply expect an injured player to be better when healthy.

So, we have Dobson as a starting WR, Amendola as a starting slot receiver, Vereen as a receiving running back.

We also have lots of maybe's competing for reps: Thompkins, Boyce, Harrison, Moe and presumably Collie.

GIVEN THAT WE HAVE THE GROUP ABOVE
What addition do we need at WR?

What does Edelman bring and how much is that worth?

Gronkowski will be fine if he healthy. It is very reasonable to expect Dobson to make a 2nd year leap.

Amendola is not what people think. The average NFL career based on studies is 6.86 years. Amendola entered the NFL in 2008 which makes 2014 his 7th season. I have heard of the 2nd year leap but the 7th year leap isn't one I have heard of. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it must be a duck.

 

[Deus Irae]

OK. let's see what we think.

I think that Amendola is solid slot receiver, and our starting slot receiver. I don't expect him to take a "leap" to being all all-pro. I simply expect an injured player to be better when healthy.

So, we have Dobson as a starting WR, Amendola as a starting slot receiver, Vereen as a receiving running back.

We also have lots of maybe's competing for reps: Thompkins, Boyce, Harrison, Moe and presumably Collie.

GIVEN THAT WE HAVE THE GROUP ABOVE
What addition do we need at WR?

What does Edelman bring and how much is that worth?

THIS!!!!!


Why is it that all the "Gotta keep Edelman no matter what!" type of people can't answer this by actually looking at Edelman's cost/value analysis instead of just tossing about "but Gronk... but D.A..., etc..."?

 

[SalemPats]

OK. let's see what we think.

I think that Amendola is solid slot receiver, and our starting slot receiver. I don't expect him to take a "leap" to being all all-pro. I simply expect an injured player to be better when healthy.

So, we have Dobson as a starting WR, Amendola as a starting slot receiver, Vereen as a receiving running back.

We also have lots of maybe's competing for reps: Thompkins, Boyce, Harrison, Moe and presumably Collie.

GIVEN THAT WE HAVE THE GROUP ABOVE
What addition do we need at WR?

What does Edelman bring and how much is that worth?

Very funny post. Amendola is an average WR, who is not a good enough route runner to be an elite slot WR. He's your 50/500, which in our short-passing game offense is not very good. His YAC is not that good either, which is imperative in our offense.

Dobson, is still unknown commodity, KT and Boyce are your 4,5. If we go with your offense we will have a brutal offense.

We need to re-sign Edelman and sign/draft a solid WR2 on the outside (Amendola is not good enough on the outside).

 

[patsderoer]

Ok, so you're basically going with unicorns and walkable rainbows instead of reality. Got it.

LOL that's laughable coming from you. You have not refuted anything I wrote, just name calling. Haha.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Very funny post. Amendola is an average WR, who is not a good enough route runner to be an elite slot WR. He's your 50/500, which in our short-passing game offense is not very good. His YAC is not that good either, which is imperative in our offense.

Dobson, is still unknown commodity, KT and Boyce are your 4,5. If we go with your offense we will have a brutal offense.

We need to re-sign Edelman and sign/draft a solid WR2 on the outside (Amendola is not good enough on the outside).

I don't think you've watched very much of Amendola. When he's healthy, he's better than Edelman. He's just rarely healthy.

Having both Edelman/Amendola is basically redundant. It was good to have Edelman this year, since Amendola was hurt for the entire season. But to pay $14M between the two of them is just asinine, and basically guarantees that you're screwing yourself at other positions all over the field.

I'd much rather gamble that Dobson and Boyce are ready for expanded roles and that Amendola might actually stay healthy, and then spend that $7M at a position of greater need. That's a far, far better allocation of resources than re-signing Edelman for $7M per.

 

[mgteich]

If Belichick wants to cut Amendola, fine. This can be done very reasonably under his contract. We would save $2.88M against this year's cap and $1.975M against next year's cap.

Amendola is scheduled to receive $3.375M for his 2014 services. If he's not worth this money, he should be cut before March 11.

If Amendola is deemed to be worth paying out $3.375M of new money, then he MUST be our starting slot WR. Why else would Belichick pay him that kind of new money?

FIRST DECISION POINT
Is Amendola worth keeping on the team at $3.375M? I think that the answer from Belichick will be yes, especially if the alternative is paying $7M to Edelman as a slot receiver.

IF AMENDOLA STAYS ON THE TEAM
Then, we need to decide what additional fire power we need at wide receiver, if any. If Amendola is staying, HE IS THE SLOT RECEIVER. Got it? IMHO, we than need a downfield receiver.

Should we pay $7M for this receiver?

Will Edelman be the best addition? If so, at what price, given what he adds?

Would a mid-level (less expensive) receiver like Sanders be the best addition?

Is there another solution?

Very funny post. Amendola is an average WR, who is not a good enough route runner to be an elite slot WR. He's your 50/500, which in our short-passing game offense is not very good. His YAC is not that good either, which is imperative in our offense.

Dobson, is still unknown commodity, KT and Boyce are your 4,5. If we go with your offense we will have a brutal offense.

We need to re-sign Edelman and sign/draft a solid WR2 on the outside (Amendola is not good enough on the outside).

 

[Deus Irae]

LOL that's laughable coming from you. You have not refuted anything I wrote, just name calling. Haha.

When you're claiming a man who's missed games in 5 of 6 seasons is reliable, your posts become self-refuting.

When you're claiming that the injury status of the TE is at issue when the discussion is about what the WR is bringing to the table, your posts become self-refuting.

In short, when I asked for real stuff, you brought nothing.

 

[BradyFTW!]

A player of his caliber? He was 4th in receptions in the entire NFL. That is not good enough? How many drives did Edelman keep alive? The Patriots would've struggled to make the playoffs without him. What guarantee is there that a FA WR will perform like him?

There are somewhere between 50 and 100 receivers in the NFL who could put up Edelman's numbers if they got the number of targets that he got in this offense.

Yes, his numbers were really good. No, he isn't a remarkable receiver. You don't win by paying replaceable players premium money. Elite contracts go to elite players.

I like him, and I'd love to see the Pats keep him if he's affordable. Continuity and chemistry are real things, as is rewarding the guys who buy in to the system. But if it takes paying him like an upper-tier guy to keep him, then he's already gone.

After 2011, a bunch of people wanted the Pats to give Mark Anderson $7M+ per year to stay in New England. I bet you were one of them.

 

[Deus Irae]

Re: Edelman's Contract negotiations

...I know people like Deus Ire hate him along with the DA lovers, but i'll be very happy when we re-sign him.

I don't hate Edelman. I'm not a D.A. lover.


I'm trying to analyze the value of Julian Edelman, the best I can, without having GM knowledge of exactly how the WR FA is going to break this year.

Instead of making broad, sweeping statements which are far more likely to be false than true (Edelman Pro Bowler!), perhaps you could talk about Edelman's pros and cons a bit more substantively.

 

[SalemPats]

If Belichick wants to cut Amendola, fine. This can be done very reasonably under his contract. We would save $2.88M against this year's cap and $1.975M against next year's cap.

Amendola is scheduled to receive $3.375M for his 2014 services. If he's not worth this money, he should be cut before March 11.

If Amendola is deemed to be worth paying out $3.375M of new money, then he MUST be our starting slot WR. Why else would Belichick pay him that kind of new money?

FIRST DECISION POINT
Is Amendola worth keeping on the team at $3.375M? I think that the answer from Belichick will be yes, especially if the alternative is paying $7M to Edelman as a slot receiver.

IF AMENDOLA STAYS ON THE TEAM
Then, we need to decide what additional fire power we need at wide receiver, if any. If Amendola is staying, HE IS THE SLOT RECEIVER. Got it? IMHO, we than need a downfield receiver.

Should we pay $7M for this receiver?

Will Edelman be the best addition? If so, at what price, given what he adds?

Would a mid-level (less expensive) receiver like Sanders be the best addition?

Is there another solution?

You say he must be our starting WR because of salary. The reason the Patriots are great is because we're one of the few teams who don't say we're going to put a guy in this role because of his salary. we're going to play the best player, which is why Edelman manned the slot and took over. If Amendola and Edelman are both on the roster, Amendola will play on the outside and be our 3rd/4th option and Edelman will be our #1/2 option depending on Gronk's health. Amendola might well be on the team because of his salary, it doesn't mean his role will grow

 

[patsderoer]

When you're claiming a man who's missed games in 5 of 6 seasons is reliable, your posts become self-refuting.

I said last season, yet you chose to ignore it.

When you're claiming that the injury status of the TE is at issue when the discussion is about what the WR is bringing to the table, your posts become self-refuting.

I never claimed that. You are really an expert at putting words in my mouth, creating a straw man for you to attack. Congratulations. You managed to kill the straw man. Great

I only made a radiography of the receiving corp last season, when Gronk, DA, Vereen, Dobson all missed significant time, and Edelman was the only reliable receiver.

In short, when I asked for real stuff, you brought nothing.

That's a blatant lie. I did mention that Brady trusts him, I did mention how well he performed in the system, I did mention that I would go 6$ max not 1 penny more, I did mention that a FA could very well bust like Stinko, I did mention the 100/1000 he brings to the table when healthy. That's all reality, not unicorns and rainbows.

In short, you blatantly lied.

You ask me to assume that Gronk, DA, and Dobson will be next season what people expect them to be, and then you accuse me of talking about unicorns and walkable rainbows, and not being grounded in reality. HAHA. Can't stop laughing about that one. That's really rich.

 

[SalemPats]

Re: Edelman's Contract negotiations

I don't hate Edelman. I'm not a D.A. lover.


I'm trying to analyze the value of Julian Edelman, the best I can, without having GM knowledge of exactly how the WR FA is going to break this year.

Instead of making broad, sweeping statements which are far more likely to be false than true (Edelman Pro Bowler!), perhaps you could talk about Edelman's pros and cons a bit more substantively.

Pros:
1. Excellent route running (we've seen him especially in the 2nd half) develop into a precise route runner.
2. Great YAC - he improved this substantially over the season. He was 4.8 during the season and was about 6 in the 2nd half, which is great for a slot guy.
3. Connection with Brady - over the 2nd half of the season and playoffs he average over 9 receptions a game which is tremendous.
4. Production - 100/1000 and he earned by passing others on the depth chart. His production in the 2nd half was top in receptions and yards.
5. Special Teams - One of the great Punt Returners
6. Knows the system - he's been a Patriot for 5 years
7. Entering his prime - He's in year 6, he's in his prime now
8. Intangibles - toughness and intelligence. He's been asked to do it all after being a late draft pick

Cons:
1. Injury issues- this was his 1st season playing 16 games.
2. Consistency - This was his first great season

I look at the Pros and say we can't lose him

 

[mgteich]

IMHO, Amendola isn't worth $3.375M as a backup slot receiver and as a #3/#4 WR option. For that, I would bring in someone like Sanders and use someone as else as the backup slot receiver.

You say he must be our starting WR because of salary. The reason the Patriots are great is because we're one of the few teams who don't say we're going to put a guy in this role because of his salary. we're going to play the best player, which is why Edelman manned the slot and took over. If Amendola and Edelman are both on the roster, Amendola will play on the outside and be our 3rd/4th option and Edelman will be our #1/2 option depending on Gronk's health. Amendola might well be on the team because of his salary, it doesn't mean his role will grow

 

[Deus Irae]

I said last season, yet you chose to ignore it.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm pointing out that one season does not make him a reliable player.

I never claimed that. You are really an expert at putting words in my mouth, creating a straw man for you to attack. Congratulations. You managed to kill the straw man. Great

Your own words:

Love Gronk, but he can't stay healthy.

So much for my putting words in your mouth or creating a straw man....

I only made a radiography of the receiving corp last season, when Gronk, DA, Vereen, Dobson all missed significant time, and Edelman was the only reliable receiver.

And I asked about what Edelman brings to a team with a WR1/2, TE, 3dRB and slot WR. I didn't ask about how last season broke injurywise.

That's a blatant lie. I did mention that Brady trusts him, I did mention how well he performed in the system, I did mention that I would go 6$ max not 1 penny more, I did mention that a FA could very well bust like Stinko, I did mention the 100/1000 he brings to the table when healthy. That's all reality, not unicorns and rainbows.

In short, you blatantly lied.

It's not a lie, at all. You brought nothing, that was relevant to my question.

You ask me to assume that Gronk, DA, and Dobson will be next season what people expect them to be, and then you accuse me of talking about unicorns and walkable rainbows, and not being grounded in reality. HAHA. Can't stop laughing about that one. That's really rich.

Well, you've been talking out of your ass. I'm trying to get you to talk about something concrete. That seems to be impossible for you on this subject.

 

[patsderoer]

You say he must be our starting WR because of salary.

Too much is made of his salary. The Pats dont pay much to the WRs compared with other teams. Dobson, KT and Boyce are all rookies.

They can create cap space restructuring and cutting people. If they let Edelman walk, they have to bring in a FA WR. Any decent WR who will be expected to do well will cost at least 3-4$. Edelman's contract can be backloaded, so the cap hit this next season will be 5$ at most, probably even less. For 1-2$, is it worth to let go a receiver who knows the system very well, who performed very well, who is in his prime, who Brady trusts, who is a great punt returner, in favor of a FA who could bust? I would say no.

7$ for Edelman? I don't think any team will give him that considering his injury history. Even if some team gives him that, maybe he will take less to remain with the Pats. Maybe he will give a little discount, considering that the Pats gave him a chance, and brought him back when no one wanted him. 6$max/year, cap hit for next season 5$ or less.