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So, @RapSheet tells us Julian Edelman could be worth $7M/year on the open market

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Bottom line we have a slot. Edelman Averaged like 10ypc. Rbs out of backfield average thAt. He is nothing that cant easily be replaced. He is a pruduct of Brady and slot position in our system. He was only experienced wr in our system. His talent is easily replaced. Sammy Stroughter or Eddie Royal could catch 100 bones from Brady. He is just another WR in a long line that fell of the grid after leaving the comforts of catching passes from Tom Brady. If a team already has 2 legit wr Edelman would be a near useless WR. Teams that dont have legit WRs are the only teams that would want him. Wouldn't mind having him as our slot and #4 option but we already have garunteed dollar's to another slot. Only teams Edelman would be vital to are second world bottom feeders. Minus Brady noway was this a playoff team. Barely was with him,several we won by skin of pressed on nails. What im saying is if we are to compete with seattle sf and even Denver we need to do drastically better than Edelman!!! If we realistically want to win a SUPERBOWL!!

REMEMBER,TO WIN A LOMBARDI TROPHY YOU MUST BE BETTER THAN EVERYBODY ELSE!!

NOT just the dolphins and jets!
 
Re: Edelman's Contract negotiations

Pros:
1. Excellent route running (we've seen him especially in the 2nd half) develop into a precise route runner.



You're overrating him here, but let's call this one.

2. Great YAC - he improved this substantially over the season. He was 4.8 during the season and was about 6 in the 2nd half, which is great for a slot guy.

:bricks:

He wasn't a slot guy. He was mixing it up. His YAC was coming on bubble screens and the like, to the outside. You can't evaluate the guy if you, you know, don't actually evaluate the guy. Despite his higher percentage of plays outside of the slot, Edelman still averaged less per catch than Welker has in every non-injury-recovery year (in other words, all but 2010) of his NFL career.

3. Connection with Brady - over the 2nd half of the season and playoffs he average over 9 receptions a game which is tremendous.

Meaningless when discussing his WR talents

4. Production - 100/1000 and he earned by passing others on the depth chart. His production in the 2nd half was top in receptions and yards.

Meaningless because it tells us nothing about his actual skills

5. Special Teams - One of the great Punt Returners

Meaningless in a discussion of his WR skills

6. Knows the system - he's been a Patriot for 5 years

Now you're attempting to double down. This is the same as "connection with Brady", which is meaningless to the question

7. Entering his prime - He's in year 6, he's in his prime now

Meaningless

8. Intangibles - toughness and intelligence. He's been asked to do it all after being a late draft pick

The guy has stayed healthy one year out of 5 and your claiming toughness? Also, intangibles? Come on, now. Whether he was a late pick or the #1 overall is completely irrelevant to his skills as a WR.


So you added one item to the list.

So far we've got:

Versatile, in that he can play both slot and outside with some level of competence.

Good route runner.


What else have we got?
 
Re: Edelman's Contract negotiations

You seem to be willing to pay $7M for a "slot guy" as an upgrade to our $3M slot guy.

I'd rather spend the $7M on Amendola ($3M) and someone else ($4M) rather than spend $7M on Edelman.

Pros:
1. Excellent route running (we've seen him especially in the 2nd half) develop into a precise route runner.
2. Great YAC - he improved this substantially over the season. He was 4.8 during the season and was about 6 in the 2nd half, which is great for a slot guy.
3. Connection with Brady - over the 2nd half of the season and playoffs he average over 9 receptions a game which is tremendous.
4. Production - 100/1000 and he earned by passing others on the depth chart. His production in the 2nd half was top in receptions and yards.
5. Special Teams - One of the great Punt Returners
6. Knows the system - he's been a Patriot for 5 years
7. Entering his prime - He's in year 6, he's in his prime now
8. Intangibles - toughness and intelligence. He's been asked to do it all after being a late draft pick

Cons:
1. Injury issues- this was his 1st season playing 16 games.
2. Consistency - This was his first great season

I look at the Pros and say we can't lose him
 
Re: Edelman's Contract negotiations

You seem to be willing to pay $7M for a "slot guy" as an upgrade to our $3M slot guy.

I'd rather spend the $7M on Amendola ($3M) and someone else ($4M) rather than spend $7M on Edelman.

MGteich and Deus IRE - I don't know what else to say. If you think being top 5 in receptions and yards in the 2nd half of the season (finishing 4th in rec over the year) and getting 100/1000 is not good enough for you, then there is no winning you over. I don't know what else you want out of a player (not to mention statistically he's the best PR of all time).
 
If Edelman were anything special,they wouldnt have brought amendola aboard. Edelman just had most experience in our scheme with brady. Connection with brady will be had by even the rokkies eventually.100 bones at 10ypc isnt that impressive anymore,rbs average that out of the backfield. I don't know bout anybody else but i want us to WIN a SUPERBOWL! We have a slot under contract. If we want a SUPERBOWL we have to do a lot better than Edelman. To win a SUPERBOWL means being BETTER than EVERYBODY ELSE! There are 31 other teams that want that trophy!! We have to be BETTER than all of them. Lets go get Justin Blackmon. Its a big start. He is a PHENOM!! Will have a rippling effect and make whole offense leaps and bounds better. He is fast physical and a redzone nightmare!! AND a good start to being BETTER than EVERYBODY ELSE in the NFL.
 
I'm not ignoring it. I'm pointing out that one season does not make him a reliable player.

And I was pointing out that he was reliable when he was healthy. Brady trusted him and he delivered.

Your own words:



So much for my putting words in your mouth or creating a straw man....

That's exactly what you did.
Your own words
Legit TE(s)
Legit WR1/WR2
Legit Slot WR

I pointed out that the team that you are describing is certainly not the Patriots. The Pats do not have a legit WR1 or legit WR2 without Edelman. The rookies who barely had any catches in the second half are certainly NOT legit. DA is certainly not legit, considering how much time he missed this last season. Gronk is like Peyton, legit regular season, but gone missing in the playoffs.

Yes, the strawman that you created was describing a team full of legit WR1/WR2/slot WR/TE, and then claiming that that team was this Pats team. Yeah right, Dobson, KT who went missing in the second half of the season, and the playoffs, DA, who went missing a large part of the season, Gronk who went missing in the playoffs, are all very legit.




And I asked about what Edelman brings to a team with a WR1/2, TE, 3dRB and slot WR. I didn't ask about how last season broke injurywise.

No, you asked me what Edelman bring to a team with a legit WR1/2,TE,slot WR. Here, let me remind you. Your own very words
Legit TE(s)
Legit WR1/WR2
Legit Slot WR

Funny how you attack Edelman for his injuries, and then you go around and claim that Dobson,KT, DA, are all legit. Haha. Still can't stop laughing

It's not a lie, at all. You brought nothing, that was relevant to my question.

That's another lie. All that I listed there was very relevant to the question.

Well, you've been talking out of your ass. I'm trying to get you to talk about something concrete. That seems to be impossible for you on this subject.

Yeah right, because 100/1000 is nothing concrete. The price I put up was nothing concrete. The chemistry with Brady was nothing concrete. Ha. Now you really can't stop lying
 
Lloyd had almost 1000 yards. And he was usually the #3 receiving target.

As another posted said, there are dozens receivers in the league (maybe 50) who might have caught 100/1000 for Brady in 2013, given how little we got out of the rest of the receiving corps (especially including TE's).

As I have indicated several times, Belichick has a choice to make at slot receiver. That choice will likely be announced on March 12th.

Yeah right, because 100/1000 is nothing concrete. The price I put up was nothing concrete. The chemistry with Brady was nothing concrete. Ha. Now you really can't stop lying
 
Lloyd had almost 1000 yards. And he was usually the #3 receiving target.

As another posted said, there are dozens receivers in the league (maybe 50) who might have caught 100/1000 for Brady in 2013, given how little we got out of the rest of the receiving corps (especially including TE's).

As I have indicated several times, Belichick has a choice to make at slot receiver. That choice will likely be announced on March 12th.

And that's the key: without a TE target, Brady went to what he knew, Edelman, just as he had with Welker the year before.

I love Edelman (my grandson is named after the guy!) and hope he comes back. But I wouldn't pay 7 million for him. Not even close. Too many other needs, including a legitimate WR/red zone threat. Blackmon makes a lot more sense to me, given Edelman's overlap with Amendola (and the possibility that Josh Boyce could fill that role, too, or maybe TJ Moe), and I wouldn't pay 7 million for Blackmon, either!

Now that I think about it, there are about 4 WRs I would pay 7 million - four in the entire league, given the Pats other needs. The guy would have to be a true difference maker and very reliable - C Johnson, A Johnson, Fitz, maybe D. Thomas or B. Marshall...short list.
 
Where the F does he come up with that? What team would pay him that?

If Edelman gets 7m per offer, he's a goner. There's no way we can match that kind of contract. I think we'd offer 4.5-5m per at most.

PS With a guy like Edelman, I feel that he is clearly better than Amendola for our system. Plus for the first time he is entirely healthy and we know that health is an issue with DA. If I only could keep one, I'd probably cut DA first.

That being said, if we could sign Edelman to a shorter but incentive laden deal I'd do it. Say 3 years, with base of 4m per and performance escalators that will pay him quite handsomely if he earns it and stays healthy. This way Edelman has the potential to be paid well if he performs and can also get his final 'big contract' at the end of the 3 years. He'd still be young and in his prime once the deal was up.
 
Lloyd had almost 1000 yards. And he was usually the #3 receiving target.

As another posted said, there are dozens receivers in the league (maybe 50) who might have caught 100/1000 for Brady in 2013, given how little we got out of the rest of the receiving corps (especially including TE's).

As I have indicated several times, Belichick has a choice to make at slot receiver. That choice will likely be announced on March 12th.

Lloyd had Gronk, Welker, and the Prisoner, who all took attention away from him.

Edelman showed up even when he was the #1 option, and there was not much to take the attention away from him, in the playoffs. Had 10 catches for 84 yards against Denver, and got open deep for a 50+TD bomb which Brady just missed. The lack of decent TEs killed the offense.

Weren't the Pats the #1 offense when Gronk was healthy? I would't mess with that. Re-sign Edelman, sign a solid FA TE, and draft 1-2TEs.
 
If Edelman were anything special,they wouldnt have brought amendola aboard. Edelman just had most experience in our scheme with brady. Connection with brady will be had by even the rokkies eventually.100 bones at 10ypc isnt that impressive anymore,rbs average that out of the backfield. I don't know bout anybody else but i want us to WIN a SUPERBOWL! We have a slot under contract. If we want a SUPERBOWL we have to do a lot better than Edelman. To win a SUPERBOWL means being BETTER than EVERYBODY ELSE! There are 31 other teams that want that trophy!! We have to be BETTER than all of them. Lets go get Justin Blackmon. Its a big start. He is a PHENOM!! Will have a rippling effect and make whole offense leaps and bounds better. He is fast physical and a redzone nightmare!! AND a good start to being BETTER than EVERYBODY ELSE in the NFL.
 
SALEM PATS IS JULIAN EDELMAN"s AGENT. OR HIS MOTHER. OR FATHER?
 
Lloyd had Gronk, Welker, and the Prisoner, who all took attention away from him.

Edelman showed up even when he was the #1 option, and there was not much to take the attention away from him, in the playoffs. Had 10 catches for 84 yards against Denver, and got open deep for a 50+TD bomb which Brady just missed. The lack of decent TEs killed the offense.

Weren't the Pats the #1 offense when Gronk was healthy? I would't mess with that. Re-sign Edelman, sign a solid FA TE, and draft 1-2TEs.

To be fair, who else is supposed to catch the ball for the team? Josh Boyce? Kenbrell Thompkins? I mean, who are these guys? And suggesting to draft up to two tight ends is ludicrous. We have holes all over the defense and lacking depth at receiver, we aren't going to blow multiple draft picks on Tight Ends. Get Gronk back healthy, grab a mid-round tight end then fill the spot behind those two with a sturdy veteran. That's all you need. We need receivers. We don't need 15 tight ends.

And the lack of decent tight ends didn't kill this offense, Brady's best year ever he had Kyle Brady and Benjamin Watson lining up, he wasn't throwing to Antonio Gates. He was bombing it to Moss. The TE obsession for some in this fan base is shocking. Brady and this offense have never been reliant on tight ends.
 
If Edelman were anything special,they wouldnt have brought amendola aboard. Edelman just had most experience in our scheme with brady.

1st. Wall of text is bad. Try making some paragraphs next time.

2nd. Using so much caps, is basically shouting on the internet. Try using less of it to be taken more seriously.

3rd. Edelman was indeed unproven before the Pats brought aboard Amendola. And Welker was on the cusp of leaving. The Pats made a gamble by signing DA instead of Welker. As we saw last season that gamble pretty much failed. DA was no Welker. Then again even Welker wasn't Welker anymore.

4th. Edelman is now a proven receiver in our system. He has been here for 5 years now and in his first full season he was our #1 guy. Everybody in the NFL knew we had nobody but Edelman at wideout and he still produced.

5th. I project Edelman to be a consistent 900-1200 yard guy in our system as long a he maintains health. I don't have as high expectations for DA. I also believe that type of production warrants roughly Brandon Lloyd level payment.

6th. I don't believe JA is worth 7m per season. But I think the Pats can get creative for a contract if they really want to keep him and he is willing to sign a shorter/slightly less lucrative deal to stay in a system where he will thrive.
 
OK. let's see what we think.

I think that Amendola is solid slot receiver, and our starting slot receiver. I don't expect him to take a "leap" to being all all-pro. I simply expect an injured player to be better when healthy.

Between ages 22-28 Amendola put up:

1. 0 yards
2. 326 yards
3. 689 yards
4. 45 yards
5. 666 yards
6. 633 yards

I don’t really anticipate year 7 in the NFL at 29 years old which is when many players especially RBs and inside receivers begin to diminish is going to be anything more than what we have seen.

Since the start of the 2007 season, our #1 slot receiver has provided:
• 1175 yards
• 1165 yards
• 1348 yards
• 848 yards
• 1569 yards
• 1354 yards
• 1056 yards

That is 1216 yards on average per season if you take Amendola’s 3 best seasons they average out to 662 yards per season, so my question is where are we getting the 553 yards in production?

So, we have Dobson as a starting WR, Amendola as a starting slot receiver, Vereen as a receiving running back.

We also have lots of maybe's competing for reps: Thompkins, Boyce, Harrison, Moe and presumably Collie.

GIVEN THAT WE HAVE THE GROUP ABOVE
What addition do we need at WR?

So what you are suggesting is that we enter 2014 with exactly what we had this season minus the most productive WR?

What does Edelman bring and how much is that worth?

Edelman brings 100+ catches, 1000+ yards, and the best punt return average in NFL history. Which to me is easily worth $1.3 million more than we signed Amendola for in 2013 and $2.5 million less than we paid Wes Welker in 2012. Do I think it should be $7 million? Absolutely not, but that is already the market and now I can just say what Edelman is worth compared to those who have already been paid. You and others seem to think of a number $4 million based on absolutely nothing except for your opinion that is formed without any consideration for the recent deals signed by slot receivers.

THIS!!!!!


Why is it that all the "Gotta keep Edelman no matter what!" type of people can't answer this by actually looking at Edelman's cost/value analysis instead of just tossing about "but Gronk... but D.A..., etc..."?

Here is a cost analyses for you –

2012 – We paid $9.5 million for a 31-year-old slot WR coming off a 122-catch, 1569-yards, 9-touchdown season.
2013 – We paid $5.7 million for a 27-year-old slot WR coming off a 63-catch, 666-yard, 3-touchdown season.

The cost analyses would tell me that a 27-year-old slot WR coming off a 105-catch, 1056-yard, 6-touchdown season should be paid between the $5.7 million and $9.5 million player (closer to the $5.7 million range). What method have you used to come up with the cost you feel Edelman is worth?

I do not think we have to resign Edelman but if we don’t we better have someone to replace his production because if we go into 2014 entrusting Amendola we all better pray that Moe is the second coming.
 
Re: Edelman's Contract negotiations

MGteich and Deus IRE - I don't know what else to say. If you think being top 5 in receptions and yards in the 2nd half of the season (finishing 4th in rec over the year) and getting 100/1000 is not good enough for you, then there is no winning you over. I don't know what else you want out of a player (not to mention statistically he's the best PR of all time).

Let me try to make this clear for you, since you seem to be confused by what I was asking and patsderoer is deliberately posting garbage in order to avoid actually answering my question:


I don't give a rat's ass about Edelman's numbers from last year, for the purposes of my question. My question was asking what Edelman brings, of significance (meaning it actually means something, unlike "He's in his prime!"), To a team that's got a WR1/WR2, a slot WR, a TE and a 3rdRb.

I don't care if he finally survived a full season. He's clearly not able to demonstrate reliability based on a 20% success rate. If we're trying to figure out his value, we need more than "He knows the system", because that's not bringing him the money. Brandon Lloyd knew the system and they woudn't pay him anywhere near the dollar amount that was floated here for Edelman.

Edelman is not a an elite slot WR, nor did he seem close to one last season.
Edelman is not a an elite outside WR, nor did he seem close to one last season.
Edelman was deemed such a relative non-threat by opponents that teams usually didn't go crazy with coverages on him, even in the games where he was clearly going to be Brady's best target. This is a far cry from the situations with Moss/Welker/Gronk, where teams often built entire defensive game plans around those players.

On the other hand:

Edelman is a versatile WR3, who can play both slot and outside with a level of competence.
Edelman runs good routes.
Edelman is good at making the first man miss, or mostly miss, when he gets the ball in space and has time to set up that defender.


So, I'm asking for other, at least relatively specific, things that Edelman will bring to the table in the offense I mentioned above. I hope that clears up any confusion.
 
If Edelman were anything special,they wouldnt have brought amendola aboard. Edelman just had most experience in our scheme with brady. Connection with brady will be had by even the rokkies eventually.100 bones at 10ypc isnt that impressive anymore,rbs average that out of the backfield. I don't know bout anybody else but i want us to WIN a SUPERBOWL! We have a slot under contract. If we want a SUPERBOWL we have to do a lot better than Edelman. To win a SUPERBOWL means being BETTER than EVERYBODY ELSE! There are 31 other teams that want that trophy!! We have to be BETTER than all of them. Lets go get Justin Blackmon. Its a big start. He is a PHENOM!! Will have a rippling effect and make whole offense leaps and bounds better. He is fast physical and a redzone nightmare!! AND a good start to being BETTER than EVERYBODY ELSE in the NFL.

Yeah clearly, anyone can have 100 catches and 1000 yards in the Patriots system, we have just decided that in the past 44 years we only wanted Troy Brown, Wes Welker, and Julian Edelman to achieve that level.

Let player coming off a 100 catch, 1000 yards season walk and go get a degenerate alcoholic with 93 career catches. Brilliant!

Blackmon is not a phenom he is a drunk, he has 6 career touchdowns which is what Edelman had this season he is hardly a red zone nightmare, and he ran a slower 40 than Dobson, Boyce and Thompkins at his pro day so he is not that fast either.
 
The market will decide what Edelman gets, not what the patriot paid Amendola.

If Amendola is so bad, he should be cut, not paid more than $3M.



Between ages 22-28 Amendola put up:

1. 0 yards
2. 326 yards
3. 689 yards
4. 45 yards
5. 666 yards
6. 633 yards

I don’t really anticipate year 7 in the NFL at 29 years old which is when many players especially RBs and inside receivers begin to diminish is going to be anything more than what we have seen.

Since the start of the 2007 season, our #1 slot receiver has provided:
• 1175 yards
• 1165 yards
• 1348 yards
• 848 yards
• 1569 yards
• 1354 yards
• 1056 yards

That is 1216 yards on average per season if you take Amendola’s 3 best seasons they average out to 662 yards per season, so my question is where are we getting the 553 yards in production?



So what you are suggesting is that we enter 2014 with exactly what we had this season minus the most productive WR?



Edelman brings 100+ catches, 1000+ yards, and the best punt return average in NFL history. Which to me is easily worth $1.3 million more than we signed Amendola for in 2013 and $2.5 million less than we paid Wes Welker in 2012. Do I think it should be $7 million? Absolutely not, but that is already the market and now I can just say what Edelman is worth compared to those who have already been paid. You and others seem to think of a number $4 million based on absolutely nothing except for your opinion that is formed without any consideration for the recent deals signed by slot receivers.



Here is a cost analyses for you –

2012 – We paid $9.5 million for a 31-year-old slot WR coming off a 122-catch, 1569-yards, 9-touchdown season.
2013 – We paid $5.7 million for a 27-year-old slot WR coming off a 63-catch, 666-yard, 3-touchdown season.

The cost analyses would tell me that a 27-year-old slot WR coming off a 105-catch, 1056-yard, 6-touchdown season should be paid between the $5.7 million and $9.5 million player (closer to the $5.7 million range). What method have you used to come up with the cost you feel Edelman is worth?

I do not think we have to resign Edelman but if we don’t we better have someone to replace his production because if we go into 2014 entrusting Amendola we all better pray that Moe is the second coming.
 
J/k BUT in all seriousness in a good offense of SUPERBOWL Caliber quality where would Edelman fit in? #4 option. Behind 2 relevant WRs and and a TE. If he is anything more than that to a team then that team has ZERO chances of a championship PERIOD! In AFCCG BRADY RAN FOR A TD WITH A LB TO BEAT. K, THEN HE HANDED OFF TO A HALFBACK FOR THE 2POINT CONVERTION.BRADY NEVER EVER DOES THAT THEN NEVER EVER TAKES THE BALL OUT OF HIS HANDS AT TIMES LIKE THAT!EVER!! SOMETHINGS BRADY AND BELICHICK DID NOT TRUST ANY PATRIOTS WRs TO BEAT COVERAGE AND CATCH THE BALL IN THE REDZONE!! EMANUEL SANDERS IS AN UPGRADE LOVER EDELMAN BUT CERTAINLY WONT FIX THAT!! WE NEED A BIG FAST COMPLETE WR WITH ATHLETICISM AND HANDS. HE WILL BE A SECOND REDZONE THREAT AS WELL. IF GRONK MISSES GAMES WE STILL HAVE A REDZONE THREAT. IM SAYING IT AGAIN, IF WE WANT A SUPERBOWL WE HAVE TO BE BETTER THAN EVERYBODY ELSE! 31OTHER TEAMS WANT THAT TROPHY. WE HAVE TO GET MUCH MUCH BETTER THAN WE ARE. JUSTIN BLACKMON IS A PHENOMENON. JUST WATCH HIS TAPE,SERIOUSLY!!!!! IMPRESSIVE. THINK ABOUT IT FOR A MINUTE. IF HE IS THAT GOOD ON MARYJANE AND HUNG OVER, THIS GUY FOCUSED UNDER BRADY AND BELICHICK ON A WINNING TEAM WILL BE UNSTOPPABLE!! HE WILL DROP 200 yards on a regular basis. CHRIS CARTER WASNT NEARLY THAT GOOD BEFORE CLEANING UP. THINK ABOUT HOW GOOD AND FAST HE WILL PLAY FOCUSED IF HIS GAMESPEED IS THIS AWESOME NOW. NOT ONLY THAT HE IS MOTIVATED BY MONEY NOW,HE DOES NOT WANT TO MISS ANY PAYCHECKS. WITH THAT AS MOTIVATION WHILE FOCUSED AND CLEAN ON OUR TEAM IN THE PATRIOTS ENVIRONMENT HE IS GOING TO BE UNSTOPPABLE AS ANY WR EVER. HE AND OUR OFFENSE WILL BLITZKRIEG THE NFL. OF COURSE WE NEED ALSO A RG OR CENTER THATS A BIG POWERFUL ATHLETIC NASTY MAULER TO SET TONE WHEN WE PLAY A PHYSICAL DEFENSE LIKE SF,CAROLINA,EMERGING KC AND OF COURSE SEATTLE. SO THAT IS IT WE NEED 2 PLAYERS TO HAVE A FAST EXPLOSIVE PHYSICAL OFFENSE. I WOULD RATHER SEE EDELMAN WALK AND UPGRADE TO BIG COMPLETE WR THEN USE EDELMAN DOLLARS ON OLINEMAN. THEN WE CAN FOCUS ON DEFENSE CUZ WE UPGRADED OFFENSE SWIFTLY AND PROPERLY THIS TIME INSTEAD OF THIS DAMN MERRY GO ROUND OF RETREADED JOURNEYMAN WHO EVEN IF EVER CONTRIBUTED ANYTHING IT WOULD BE USELESS AND FALSE HOPE THAT WOULD PREVENT US AND POSTPONE PROPER UPGRADES THAT WILL GET US ANOTHER SUPERBOWL TROPHY.
 
Do you know that you can actually increase the size of the font to make that sentence much much bigger?
 
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