Setting Stidham up for Success

[Joker]

The year before BB took over the Browns, they were 3-13. THAT is a dumpster fire. You seem to hate everything about Belichick and cast aspersions on anyone YOU deem unworthy. Schottenheimer was coach of the year in '86 and gone by the end of 88'. Bud Carson took the remnants and straggled to a 9-7 record before imploding the next season. Cleveland was a tough place to coach in that decade because of the constant backbiting of Modell.

 

[NormZauchin]

No it’s not. People forget but the old Browns weren’t a dumpster fire. They were in 3 AFCCG’s in 6 years before he got there. He actually was one of the worst coaches they had until they moved to Baltimore

The old Browns did have some outstanding coaches, starting with Paul Brown (great), Blanton Collier (very good), and Marty Schottenheimer (good). But the Nick Skorichs, Sam Rutiglianos, Forrest Greggs, etc., all finished their tenure with the Browns below .500. Their teams, in the main, were not abysmally bad like the Browns of the past twenty years, but neither were Belichick's losing Browns teams. And to not give Belichick a pass on the 1995 season, when Modell made the announcement that he was moving the team, is just unfair.

 

[lancerman]

The old Browns did have some outstanding coaches, starting with Paul Brown (great), Blanton Collier (very good), and Marty Schottenheimer (good). But the Nick Skorichs, Sam Rutiglianos, Forrest Greggs, etc., all finished their tenure with the Browns below .500. Their teams, in the main, were not abysmally bad like the Browns of the past twenty years, but neither were Belichick's losing Browns teams. And to not give Belichick a pass on the 1995 season, when Modell made the announcement that he was moving the team, is just unfair.

Even without 95, Belichick has 1 winning season. His 5 years were worse than the 5 years before him. And to go a step further, the Ravens which was really the team he coached, won 2 SB’s and one was 5 years after he was fired and they were consistently one of the better AFC teams

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

Even without 95, Belichick has 1 winning season. His 5 years were worse than the 5 years before him. And to go a step further, the Ravens which was really the team he coached, won 2 SB’s and one was 5 years after he was fired and they were consistently one of the better AFC teams

If you want to stretch it out to 5 years then yes BB didn’t have the success that Marty S had. But by the time BB took over he wasn’t coaching those browns squads that were playoff contenders. He was taking over a browns team that bottomed out at 3 wins with a -260 pt differential. It was team in need of a rebuild. It took a bit of time but he eventually had them on a trajectory to compete in the playoffs until ownership took the rug out from under him.

 

[Wozzy]

The last time the Browns were in the playoffs BB was their coach.

He inherited a dumpster fire and turned over the entire roster. Also they had Kosar entrenched at QB, ownership and fans insisted he lead them to the playoffs despite his best years being behind him.

In year three with Testeverde at QB they made it to the playoffs with the #1 ranked defense in the league. Saying BB sucked in Cleveland is a total reimagining of what happened there before Modell pulled the rug out from under the entire city.

Was BB only successful because of Testeverde? Just dumb... QB's are players, he is the coach.

BB drafted Brady, he didn't appear out of the aether.

Walsh/Montana, Noll/Bradshaw, Johnson/Aikman... great coaches find great talent, that's just how it works. If Stidham isn't the guy, he'll find someone else and we'll have to sit on our hands for a season.

Believe it or not we're not entitled to a championship EVERY season.

 

[rochrist]

Even without 95, Belichick has 1 winning season. His 5 years were worse than the 5 years before him. And to go a step further, the Ravens which was really the team he coached, won 2 SB’s and one was 5 years after he was fired and they were consistently one of the better AFC teams

You really don't get the irony of this. In other words, the Ravens, the team Belichick built, won 2 SBs and one was 5 years after he was fired.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[lancerman]

You really don't get the irony of this. In other words, the Ravens, the team Belichick built, won 2 SBs and one was 5 years after he was fired.

You can't have it both ways.

Do you give coaches credit for a team winning a SB 5 years after the coach leaves lol? Really? So Parcells and Caroll get credit for 2001-04?


But lets dispell this myth.

Quarterbacks: none of QB’s were on the team Belichick coached in the 2000 season.

Running Backs. none of the running backs when BB left were there

Wide Receivers: none of the wide receivers that Belichick had in his final year were on the team.

Tight Ends: Not a single TE was on the team and the best skill player on offense was Sharpe who came on in 2000.

Offensive Line: not a single offensive lineman in 1995 was there.

*so at this point the entire offense had nothing to do with Bill picking them.

Defensive Line: Rob Burnett and a Larry Webster were there. The problem is Burnett was drafted in 1990 before Bill was the coach. So only Larry Webster was because of Belichick. Oh and Larry Webster was suspended in 2000 and only played 5 regular season games

Linebackers: none of the linebackers were on Belichick’s squad. The closest you get is Ray Lewis was drafted with a pick Belichick traded for. That’s how far you have to reach.

Defensive backs: again not a single defensive back was on Belichick’s last Brown’s team

Special teams: Matt Stover the kicker was picked up in 1991 by Bill’s regime.


So Bill is responsible for a defensive end who played 5 regular season games and the kicker. Everyone else was brought in after he left.

Can you please tell me how he is responsible for building a team that won a SB 5 years after he was gone with only 2 common players, one of whom played less than a third of the season and the other a kicker?

The best you can say is Belichick gave them an All Pro kicker.

Please justify your take

 

[luuked]

No it’s not. People forget but the old Browns weren’t a dumpster fire. They were in 3 AFCCG’s in 6 years before he got there. He actually was one of the worst coaches they had until they moved to Baltimore

I think you gotta check on that roster, the players respective age and more specifically the decline their PPG on defense and offense had made before he got there and compare it to the immediate jumps it made in the years under him.

In other words he took over an old, declining roster and rebuilt it on the fly. It is all there on PFR if you care to check.

But then again it looks like that wouldn't fit your agenda.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

The last time the Browns were in the playoffs BB was their coach.

"Fun" fact: Belichick is the last Browns coach to win a playoff game, against New England.

 

[sb1]

Belichick will lead this team to a decent record and then the questions about how much he really needed our former QB will be answered decisively.

 

[lancerman]

I think you gotta check on that roster, the players respective age and more specifically the decline their PPG on defense and offense had made before he got there and compare it to the immediate jumps it made in the years under him.

In other words he took over an old, declining roster and rebuilt it on the fly. It is all there on PFR if you care to check.

But then again it looks like that wouldn't fit your agenda.

And he had 1 playoff win and appearance. It’s not impressive. Either you care about results or you don’t.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

And he had 1 playoff win and appearance. It’s not impressive. Either you care about results or you don’t.

Right and the next year the owner destroyed everything. We will never know if he could’ve added to those results since the owner pretty much stopped any momentum BB was building.

 

[lancerman]

Right and the next year the owner destroyed everything he was building. We will never know if he could’ve added to those results since the owner destroyed everything he was building.

This is an excuse sorry. He made the playoffs once in 5 years. It’s the coaches job to deal with outside noise.

This forum is giving Belichick credit for things that aren’t impressive.

 

[luuked]

And he had 1 playoff win and appearance. It’s not impressive. Either you care about results or you don’t.

I honestly don't care about whether he had 1 playoff win, 2 playoff wins or 5. What matters is how within 2 years they rebuilt the core of the team and each separate unit improved substantially. That is pretty much the definition of success.

Any football game has so much randomness and uncertainty to it that the only way to judge coaching is to look at it over longer periods of times and how metrics that are correlated with success improve. Looking at any one game (or even season) is a fools errand.

The same way you can see his signature on all 3 units with the Browns you can also see that signature all over the Pats even if you completely ignore Brady. The Pats D has been the best unit in PPG from 2001 to 2019 and the Pats ST have been consistently an elite group as well.

But please instead of enjoying the fact that you have one of the greatest coaches of all time working right under your nose continue on your pointless crusade to downplay his achievements and ability. It sure sounds like fun.

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

This is an excuse sorry. He made the playoffs once in 5 years. It’s the coaches job to deal with outside noise.

This forum is giving Belichick credit for things that aren’t impressive.

It was a complete rebuild he was tasked with. Did it take longer than people hoped, yeah it did. And in New England did drafting and developing Tom Brady make our rebuild faster and more successful? Absofreakinlutely it did.

Regarding Cleveland, I don’t think anyone is saying what he accomplished there makes him some sort of god, just merely showing where the team was when he took over and the direction he was taking it. We will never know how it would’ve turned out had Modell not fired him. Considering the circumstances he was faced with in 95, he should’ve gotten another year.

 

[lancerman]

I honestly don't care about whether he had 1 playoff win, 2 playoff wins or 5. What matters is how within 2 years they rebuilt the core of the team and each separate unit improved substantially. That is pretty much the definition of success.

Any football game has so much randomness and uncertainty to it that the only way to judge coaching is to look at it over longer periods of times and how metrics that are correlated with success improve. Looking at any one game (or even season) is a fools errand.

The same way you can see his signature on all 3 units with the Browns you can also see that signature all over the Pats even if you completely ignore Brady. The Pats D has been the best unit in PPG from 2001 to 2019 and the Pats ST have been consistently an elite group as well.

But please instead of enjoying the fact that you have one of the greatest coaches of all time working right under your nose continue on your pointless crusade to downplay his achievements and ability. It sure sounds like fun.

No it’s not. You are saying things are impressive that happen in this league.

In 2007 the Miami Dolphins went 1-15 and were arguably the second worst team of the decade. They went 11-5 and got in the playoffs the next year. In 2008 Rod Marinelli led the Lions to 0-16 largely considered the worst team of the SB era. Scwartz turned it around in 2011 and was in the playoffs. Both teams started out worse and improved quicker then Belichick’s Browns. I can go further and list the 2010 Panthers, 2011 Colts, 2012 Chiefs, 2013 Texans as teams that ended up with the first pick in the draft and ended up making the playoffs in quicker time than Belichick did with the Browns. That’s 6 teams that did it faster and 1 of them is among the worst of the SB era.

It’s not impressive, and he didn’t maintain it a year later. So you propping something that isn’t remotely unique or unheard of as this feat of his brilliance and then making an excuse for why he didn’t follow it up, and then ignoring that the team he supposedly rebuilt was completely ripped apart and in 5 years was remade into a SB team, which ironically is the same duration he had with team.

Nobody is saying he didn’t become a great coach with the Patriots. However because of his success here his time with the Browns mythologized despite it being considered a failure.

Two years before he got there they were in the AFCCG. 1 of 3 appearances in the 6 years before. They had a bad year right after. However the team retained the same starting QB, 3 of the RB’s on the team, 3 of their top WR’s, both offensive tackles an All Pro Defensive End, 2 LBs including a pro Bowl Clay Matthews, and 3 defensive backs including an All Pro and multi time Pro Bowler in Minnifield.

He pretty much retained the core of the team. The problem wasn’t the talent. Carson sucked and was a poor replacement for Marty. The biggest loss he had was Newsome who was already old and on the downside by 1989 and retired a year later.

Dude kept 15 core players from their glory years in the 80’s who were all mostly benchmarks of the team.

The Browns were no worse off than all the other teams I mentioned that had quicker turn around times. And I might add 5 of the 6 I mentioned had worse records than Carson’s Browns.

This is particularly funny that he’s getting talked up for that when other people in this thread are also giving him credit for the 2000 Ravens when they had a kicker and a defensive end from Belichick time and the DE only played 5 games that year.

This doesn’t hold up in a historical context or a reality context. Plenty of coaches were dealt a worse hand and rebuilt faster and the team in question decided to rip apart everything he did to build a SB team. Also he’s getting an excuse for 1995. He 4 losing records and one winning record. Even at the time he was viewed as a failure there.

The only reason it’s being spun remotely positive is because of what he did in New England.

 

[lancerman]

It was a complete rebuild he was tasked with. Did it take longer than people hoped, yeah it did. And in New England did drafting and developing Tom Brady make our rebuild faster and more successful? Absofreakinlutely it did.

Regarding Cleveland, I don’t think anyone is saying what he accomplished there makes him some sort of god, just merely showing where the team was when he took over and the direction he was taking it. We will never know how it would’ve turned out had Modell not fired him. Considering the circumstances he was faced with in 95, he should’ve gotten another year.

Again he took over a team that had 3 conference titles games in the 6 years before he got there. They were bad in 1990 because Carson sucked not the team. He actually retained a large portion of the teams feature players. Yes we will never know whet would have happened if he wasn’t fired, but he sill was 1 out of 5 in winning seasons. We also know that everyone involved looked at what he did and basically dismantled it and rebuilt and they were proven right by winning a SB in the same amount of time Bill had with the team.

Which leads me to my overall point they he did nothing impressive in Cleveland. Plenty of coaches took much worse teams to a playoff in quicker time than Bill did there and a chunk maintained it, which he didn’t do. He’s getting lenience and spin because of who he is.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

It's not like Belichick was a finished product in 1995. He clearly learned and got better by coming back to NE in 1996 and then the Jets for a bit. Belichick has still evolved even after 2000 and since then. Evolved like the genius 2007 slot receiver option routes the last 13 years. The 2010 2TE offense the last 10 years. The 5-6 DB man cover-1 defense since 2016. It is however clear that by the time he came back in 2000, he became the best coach in the NFL and has proven to evolve into the best of all time. Also if this is somehow a hidden Brady/BB debate, which I suspect this is, zero question in my mind BB still would have found another game manager who takes care of the ball and still would have won a couple rings. To his credit BB ditched his all-pro QB in Bledsoe because he saw what Brady could become.

.

 

[sb1]

This is an excuse sorry. He made the playoffs once in 5 years. It’s the coaches job to deal with outside noise.

This forum is giving Belichick credit for things that aren’t impressive.

The end of a franchise is a bit more than “outside noise”

11-5 with Cassel and a sub par defense
3-1 with a green JG and Jacoby Brissett

Seems our former QB didn’t have quite as much to do with how good Bill is as coach as some of us would like to think. I think they’ll be more where that came from this season.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

This is an excuse sorry. He made the playoffs once in 5 years. It’s the coaches job to deal with outside noise.

This forum is giving Belichick credit for things that aren’t impressive.

As a reminder, though, the first two years of Belichick's tenure were before the modern concept of NFL free agency—a very different era. The re-building he was able to do in NE in 2001 wasn't possible in 1991 and 1992.