Schefter: Ochocinco will stay with Patriots

[patfanken]

Branch is a lock to make the roster, IMO.

,,,,,and that is what IMO is all about.....everyone has one. I think there is as big a chance that we we see a Deion Branch retirement press conference during camp, before we see him on the roster. But my opinion is no better than yours

 

[Deus Irae]

Branch is a lock to make the roster, IMO.

WR locks

Lloyd
Welker

WR/ST locks

Slater


That leaves every other receiver

Deion Branch
Britt Davis
Julian Edelman
Anthony Gonzalez
Chad "Ochostinko" Johnson
Donte Stallworth
Tiquan Underwood
Any additional WR FAs
Any drafted WRs

competing for 3 spots. While I view Branch as a clubhouse favorite and currently poised to win one of those 3 spots, I don't consider him a lock. To each his own opinion on this, naturally.

 

[Sicilian]

,,,,,and that is what IMO is all about.....everyone has one. I think there is as big a chance that we we see a Deion Branch retirement press conference during camp, before we see him on the roster. But my opinion is no better than yours

I could see that happening too. But as currently constituted, I believe that Branch and Stallworth have the inside track on the two (likely) available WR spots due to familiarity with Brady and the system. I haven't seen anything from Ocho or Underwood last year to make me think they'll supplant Branch, and Gonzalez is an injury waiting to happen. If we bring in a rookie, I think Branch's chances to make the roster go WAY down though, as even if he's not perfect I doubt they would cut a rookie after his first camp.

 

[patfanken]

He had two weeks to prepare for the super bowl knowing their big target was injured or out. He made one catch. It's not because he was the fourth option or behind others or whatever, so he was running all the routes correctly, but Brady decided not to go to him even though Gronk was obviously not 100%.

Why aks me that question Ray. All I know that they gave him one look, and it resulted in a perfect route and 21 yds. Are you going to dispute that too.

There comes a time when excuses and blaming others (Tom was fixed on other receivers doesn't cut it when their top threat is down).

No excuses Ray. Just not the irrational hatred that you continue to display for all to see. Why don't YOU give us an explanation for not throwing to him again. Maybe you know why....since you seem to have ALL the answers

I hope you enjoy his reality show and i hope that he gives it his full attention and effort, something i didn't see here, frankly.

Making it up as you go along to fit the madness, eh Ray. Not ONCE was there ever a HINT that Chad slacked off or was in the least distracted. NOT once was his work ethic or commitment questioned. Not even by his harshest critics.....except you Really a pathetic showing

If there's one thing we know about the patriot way it's players that are 100% focused on football, regardless of talent. Can anyone honestly say Och's attention was 100% on football, even as he had obviously spent a year not learning what he needed to make even a marginal impact on the team? Taking players out to IHOP, tweeter followers out to dinner, reality shows, fan room mate contests, tweeting constantly. Sorry, I see distracted and a distraction when I see 85.

What a crime, he took players out to IHOP. Heavens save me from that horror. Frankly Ray I don't give a crap what you "see". You are free to have any delusion you want. Just don't expect me to comment on it any more. I won't encourage this irrational hatred any more.

 

[Ring 6]

Moroney, Butler, Wheatley, Bethel, Chad Jackson. YES.



I have a better chance at winning the powerball.

Wow, so you have evaluated every first and second round pick BB has ever made and would have taken less than 4 guys who didn't work out long term? Wow. I am sure if you put that much work into your research and evaluation, you must have posted who you would have taken somewhere right?
I'd love to see your choices.

 

[Ring 6]

WR locks

Lloyd
Welker

WR/ST locks

Slater


That leaves every other receiver

Deion Branch
Britt Davis
Julian Edelman
Anthony Gonzalez
Chad "Ochostinko" Johnson
Donte Stallworth
Tiquan Underwood
Any additional WR FAs
Any drafted WRs

competing for 3 spots. While I view Branch as a clubhouse favorite and currently poised to win one of those 3 spots, I don't consider him a lock. To each his own opinion on this, naturally.

I don't think Slater has to be included in the WR group. He is only a WR, and a S as well, because that is his emergency position on O or D since he will be active every game for s/ts.

The question really is do we keep 5 or 6 WRs ignoring the Slater emergency role.
Mostly we have opted for 5. Given the fact that we seem assured of keeping 3 TEs, one of which is more productive than most #1 WRs, and one who plays like a WR, I would think 5 is the number, but a 6th could be kept, and that would likely be Edelman because of his s/t prowess and versatility, while he would rarely if ever play WR.

I could see:
Welker
Lloyd
Branch
Gonzalez
85/Stallworth

with Edelman and Slater on the roster not seeing the field at WR.

The issue you run into is 85 or Stallworth are probably on the roster only in the event of injury and would be game day inactives, so the spot may need to be taken up for depth elsewhere.

 

[supafly]

Like many, I can obviously see both sides to the #85 debate.

I don't know if we have any real substance to go by in terms of him 'not working hard enough' though, that may be a stretch of speculation with a negative twist.

To me it seemed as though there were better options for targets from Brady, and that he just didn't pick up on a complicated system fast enough to be able to contribute in any meaningful basis.

I think it does say something about how Belichick feels though, along with the contractual obligations of course. Rarely have we seen Belichick keep a player for too long if he isn't contributing, or at the very least busting his butt trying to learn.

However, we've all seen examples of players who just don't 'get it' here, so hopefully that isn't the case with Ochocinco.

The best thing about the whole situation is that the competition and depth will be vastly improved over 2011 one way or another, whether he makes the team or not. He should be good for competition at the very least. And even if he does get cut, I wouldn't think it'd be an enormous stretch to see him go somewhere else and still catch 45 balls. It just means he wasn't the best fit here.

 

[Ring 6]

The #3 receiver is at best the #5 receiver target. Perhaps #6 is more reasonable, after whichever running back is in the game at the time.

As DI has indicated, perhaps we will have a greater role for the #3 and #4 receivers in 2012, using 7 targets in a game (4 WR, 2 TE and 1 RB). In 2011, we clearly overused Welker and Gronkowski. Our top 4 receivers accounted for 85% of the receptions, with the running backs accounting for 9% (the rb number seems reasonable).

WIDE RECEIVERS OTHER THAN THE #1 and #2 IN 2011
They accounted for a total of 23 catches all year, 1 1/2 catches per game. We should be able to spread the ball out better. Welker doesn't have that many 100 receptions season left in him.

3 ROSTER SPOTS
Obviously, the best 53 make the squad, and an extra wideout is always possible. That being said, you arithmetic is spot on. We need THREE more receivers, with one being inactive in almost any game. At least two of these are expected to play special teams. At minimum, we need one to be a returner.

I agree that there is a lot of competition for these three roster spots. As you say, we have Branch, Stallworth, Johnson, Gonzalez, Edelman, Underwood and perhaps a draftee.

We should be real. There should be no more than 5 WR roster spots. We have four fine receivers targets (2 WR and 2 TE's) and the RB's should get some receptions.

A SIDE NOTE ON THE "LAST" FEW ROSTER SPOTS
Some STer are locks. We just don't recognize the importance Belichick puts on special teamers. A spot or two can be used for developmental players who are expected to be inactive this year, but are two valuable to risk trying to place on the Practice Squad.
And last couple of spots simply go to the player who is most valuable, which can change from game to game.

I won't say it is useless to project the positions played by the last 3 roster spots, but that is almost the case.

ONE BOTTOM LINE
The #5 WR position is not very important. We need four healthy wide receivers, that's all. The four must include a returner.

I don't think we reduce the throws to Welker and Gronk by ignoring them when they are open. That is why they get the ball, they get open, not because we pick who the ball will go to as a play call.
The way their targets will be reduced is by their playing time being reduced.
I can't imagine why we would ever want to take Gronk off the field. He is the biggest natural mismatch in the NFL. Devising a plan to throw less to him makes zero sense to me, after he just had the best season any TE has had in NFL history, and he is what? 24 years old?
Welker, on the other hand, could be a case where you want to reduce his reps to reduce the pounding he will take, mostly because he is somehwat older.
If Gonzalez can be healthy and make the team, he would make a good Welker sub. Otherwise,with Gronk, Hernandez and Lloyd, any of Branch, Stallworth, or 85(if he gets it) could make a very effective group that would have a different set of plays to exploit different coverages, schemes and parts of the field than a Welker-centric set.

 

[supafly]

I don't think Slater has to be included in the WR group. He is only a WR, and a S as well, because that is his emergency position on O or D since he will be active every game for s/ts.

The question really is do we keep 5 or 6 WRs ignoring the Slater emergency role.
Mostly we have opted for 5. Given the fact that we seem assured of keeping 3 TEs, one of which is more productive than most #1 WRs, and one who plays like a WR, I would think 5 is the number, but a 6th could be kept, and that would likely be Edelman because of his s/t prowess and versatility, while he would rarely if ever play WR.

I could see:
Welker
Lloyd
Branch
Gonzalez
85/Stallworth

with Edelman and Slater on the roster not seeing the field at WR.

I think this is a great point too.

It probably doesn't matter too much as to exactly 'where' these guys are kept, seeing as how Belichick knows they have value to the team. It's more of just an exercise for the fans and media.

Slater very well may be lumped in with the safeties instead, and there should be enough of an argument to warrant keeping 6--with the possibility of even 7 WR's (if you are to include one of either Edelman or Slater).

I think many are assuming that it's going to be Welker, Lloyd, and then 3 others. My personal opinion is that there will be 4 others kept.

Like Deus pointed out, this is the fun of the offseason. Everyone will always have their personal opinions on who should make the team. We have perameters set from patterns of past years, but there really is no right/wrong answer.

 

[sly24]

It sucks because I'm really rooting for him but I doubt he gets better. If he didn't get it in a year, how is anything going to change? I'll admit though that towards the end of the season he was open quite a lot but Brady just threw elsewhere.

Lloyd
Welker
Branch
Gonzalez
Ocho or Stallworth or Draft pick

Underwood out

Slater and Edelman will be kept but not as WRs.

That's how I see it.

 

[Ring 6]

Like many, I can obviously see both sides to the #85 debate.

I don't know if we have any real substance to go by in terms of him 'not working hard enough' though, that may be a stretch of speculation with a negative twist.

To me it seemed as though there were better options for targets from Brady, and that he just didn't pick up on a complicated system fast enough to be able to contribute in any meaningful basis.

I think it does say something about how Belichick feels though, along with the contractual obligations of course. Rarely have we seen Belichick keep a player for too long if he isn't contributing, or at the very least busting his butt trying to learn.

However, we've all seen examples of players who just don't 'get it' here, so hopefully that isn't the case with Ochocinco.

The best thing about the whole situation is that the competition and depth will be vastly improved over 2011 one way or another, whether he makes the team or not. He should be good for competition at the very least. And even if he does get cut, I wouldn't think it'd be an enormous stretch to see him go somewhere else and still catch 45 balls. It just means he wasn't the best fit here.

From my perspective there are 2 outspoken groups about 85: Those that just don't like the guy, and those that do like him.
Both have pretty heavily skewed assessments of him IMO.
Being entirely unbiased about him, I am of course, in the middle of the outspoken factions.
I think it is ridiculous to say he was too lazy or stupid to learn the playbook. If it were either, he would have been gone a long time ago. That's just the way this team operates.
We all (or most of us) clearly understand that the Patriot passing game revolves around routes being dictated by reading the coverage, and I do not understand how anyone would be surprised that a 10+ year very successful veteran who never had to do it at any point in his career may struggle doing so.
There is no question, IMO, that the success 85 had in Cincy included being in a system that revolved around designing, calling, and executing plays to use his strengths to get him open. When he becomes a ''normal WR' the equation changes.
Is it possible that he learns a part of the game that came hard to him in his first year? Sure. Is there any reason to believe he can be as productive here as he was in Cincy? Not really, unless we redesign our offense to highlight him, and set up route groupings that are designed to free him up. We simply have too many better weapons than 85 to use them as decoy or complementary pieces for 85.
Does he have the skills to be a small piece of the receiving corps? I'd say BB must feel he does, providing he gains a better understanding of what he is seeing in coverage.

 

[Ring 6]

It sucks because I'm really rooting for him but I doubt he gets better. If he didn't get it in a year, how is anything going to change? I'll admit though that towards the end of the season he was open quite a lot but Brady just threw elsewhere.

I will give the benefit of the doubt that you attended games and are making the statement based upon that, because from a TV view, there is just no way to see that.
However, I think that comment misses the main consideration.
Often Brady is making his decision to throw the ball before the receiver makes his cut. Based on the coverage, and leverage, it is easy to predict before the cut if the throw is purdent.
If brady cannot trust that 85 is seeing what he is seeing, and therefore running the route he expects him to, he can't be confident throwing him the ball. He isn't getting open until AFTER the decision to throw is made, and if you lack confidence where he will go, its hard to send the ball his way.
Many of his targets this year came on more slowly developing plays where the decision wasn't made until after he executed the cut and route.

 

[ATippett56]

The question really is do we keep 5 or 6 WRs ignoring the Slater emergency role.

Mostly we have opted for 5. Given the fact that we seem assured of keeping 3 TEs, one of which is more productive than most #1 WRs, and one who plays like a WR, I would think 5 is the number, but a 6th could be kept, and that would likely be Edelman because of his s/t prowess and versatility, while he would rarely if ever play WR.

I could see:
Welker
Lloyd
Branch
Gonzalez
85/Stallworth

with Edelman and Slater on the roster not seeing the field at WR.

The issue you run into is 85 or Stallworth are probably on the roster only in the event of injury and would be game day inactives, so the spot may need to be taken up for depth elsewhere.

Due to his injuries in the recent past, Gonzalez seems like a long shot to make the team.

2012 New England Patriots Offense (24 proposed roster spots)

3 - QB
4 - RB
3 - TE
9 - OL
5 - WR

With regard to the five available roster spots at the wide receiver position:

Welker
Lloyd
Branch
Stallworth
Edelman/Gonzalez/Johnson/Underwood

Matthew Slater would be strictly utilized for special teams.

 

[supafly]

Due to his injuries in the recent past, Gonzalez seems like a long shot to make the team.

2012 New England Patriots Offense (24 proposed roster spots)

3 - QB
4 - RB
3 - TE
9 - OL
5 - WR

With regard to the five available roster spots at the wide receiver position:

Welker
Lloyd
Branch
Stallworth
Edelman/Gonzalez/Johnson/Underwood

Matthew Slater would be strictly utilized for special teams.

The only thing that I may disagree with here, is the thought that Edelman has a good possibility of not making the team.

I can't exactly say where to put him though, in the same token.

He's cheap, he offers good punt returning capabilities (IIRC, he was one of the NFL's higher averages the yr before last), and can play both offense and defense. Basically, he offers value at all 3 phases of the game at a very reasonable price.

I think Edelman is pretty close to being a lock, though again..we'll all likely have differing opinions on the matter.

 

[Ring 6]

Due to his injuries in the recent past, Gonzalez seems like a long shot to make the team.

2012 New England Patriots Offense (24 proposed roster spots)

3 - QB
4 - RB
3 - TE
9 - OL
5 - WR

With regard to the five available roster spots at the wide receiver position:

Welker
Lloyd
Branch
Stallworth
Edelman/Gonzalez/Johnson/Underwood

Matthew Slater would be strictly utilized for special teams.

Why would Stallworth who caught 2 passes in 2010 and 22 in 2011, have a better chance of making the team than Gonzalez or even 85? Stalworth has barely been an NFL receiver since leaving here 4 years ago, catching a total of 41 passes. I think you are expecting the player he was in 07, and thats just not who he is.
Agreed that Gonzalez has an injury history, but if he is healthy he is a very good WR. He is either hurt or on the roster, he won't be cut healthy, unless the injuries have just taken away his speed and quickness, but I doubt BB signs him if that were the case.

There is no reason you couldn't have 6 WRs, making the offensive allotment 25. Then you have 25 O 25 D and 3 s/ts.

 

[Ring 6]

The only thing that I may disagree with here, is the thought that Edelman has a good possibility of not making the team.

I can't exactly say where to put him though, in the same token.

He's cheap, he offers good punt returning capabilities (IIRC, he was one of the NFL's higher averages the yr before last), and can play both offense and defense. Basically, he offers value at all 3 phases of the game at a very reasonable price.

I think Edelman is pretty close to being a lock, though again..we'll all likely have differing opinions on the matter.

It seems that Edelman has next to no value at WR. Last year there was a clear opening for that 3rd WR, and he played very sparingly and didn't produce when he did.
Playing defense really was an emergency, and I doubt we resort to that gimmick again.
Essentially it comes down to he can return punts and be the last guy off the bench at a few positions on game day.
I don't think that gives him great job security.
We retained every WR from last years squad, and have signed 3 new ones already. I wouldn't think that bodes well for the guy at the position who was the last one to get on the field.
I recognize the everyone loves an underdog fascination with Edelman, but other than returning some punts and being a weak player at a number of positions, its been 3 years, and I haven't seen the reasons he would have a great chance of beating out these other guys.

 

[ATippett56]

I think Edelman is pretty close to being a lock, though again..we'll all likely have differing opinions on the matter.

Julian Edelman, Matthew Slater, Marquice Cole, Tracy White could be designated as special teams players. Marquice Cole provides flexibility since he has shown the ability to play cornerback for the New York Jets. By keeping another wide receiver on the roster, the New England Patriots defense will be allotted one less roster spot. A defensive player, such as Ron Brace, may end up a roster casualty.

 

[RIpats88]

Stallworth did have a better season last year 22 passes, 300yards, 3TD's

either way, i see Edelman as a lock. I cant see how he doesnt make the team....he is our primary punt returner, can play Cornerback and wide receiver...belichick LOVES guys like that..

I see it as a battle between

Gonzalez, Ochocinco, stallworth, Branch(who is almost a lock because of his knowledge of the system) and Bess

 

[Sicilian]

The only thing that I may disagree with here, is the thought that Edelman has a good possibility of not making the team.

I can't exactly say where to put him though, in the same token.

He's cheap, he offers good punt returning capabilities (IIRC, he was one of the NFL's higher averages the yr before last), and can play both offense and defense. Basically, he offers value at all 3 phases of the game at a very reasonable price.

I think Edelman is pretty close to being a lock, though again..we'll all likely have differing opinions on the matter.

I agree with you on Edelman. If nothing else, he's currently our ONLY reasonable PR option, unless you count Wes who I would like to keep out of that role if possible. Even if we draft a rookie, I'd be surprised to see that job trusted to him in his first year.

As for where Edelman slots in, I see him as the #5 WR, with very little chance of being anything higher than that. He's a guy a don't mind seeing play on offense in limited action or emergency, which is exactly what he'd be at 5. Assuming health, only three WR's are going to get regular reps on offense, possibly only 2 with the 3rd and 4th WR splitting the WR3 duties. There's just nobody fighting for those 3/4 positions that is a better receiver than Hernandez or Gronk, they'll be in there a lot, even in 4 "wr" sets.

 

[Sicilian]

Stallworth did have a better season last year 22 passes, 300yards, 3TD's

either way, i see Edelman as a lock. I cant see how he doesnt make the team....he is our primary punt returner, can play Cornerback and wide receiver...belichick LOVES guys like that..

I see it as a battle between

Gonzalez, Ochocinco, stallworth, Branch(who is almost a lock because of his knowledge of the system) and Bess

Bess? Did I miss someone?