Scary Good Defense

[mgteich]

IMHO, we had a top 5 defense at the end of the year.

We lost Flowers and replaced him with Bennett and Collins. Bentley is back. All the secondary is back. Jackson should be better after a year of experience.

I'm not saying that we are the best. However, I think that this defense will likely be better than the one that played in the playoffs and the Super Bowl.
=====
And no, I am not counting on rookies, although they will likely be good additions: Winovich and Williams.

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, and I AM very excited about our defense, but for different reasons. Let's face it, while we all like OUR players, but we also tend to overvalue them as individuals, just like every other fan base. Consider this. The Browns have 3 of their 4 starting DLmen with recent All Pro selections. I think we have one (Bennett), and that was so long ago I can't remember (2014 maybe).

I was watching a couple of preseason games today and it seems like EVERYONE has multiple stars, and EVERYONE's draft picks "look fantastic". So let remember that its preseason and our team usually starts very slowly.

I think we should focus more on what we DO have that is exciting, but unproven. We potentially have a decent DL that is made up of good but not great players who are extremely VERSATILE. We have a very deep LB group that has a make up very much like the DL. And THOSE 2 groups are anchored by the deepest AND most versatile secondary in the league. And guess what, we actually have ONE actual elite player in that group.

So lets get real we have a nice defensive group, but no one outside of NE is drooling over our defensive roster. No DC is game planning to stop ANY of our front 7 like we often have to do. The only great one on one pass rusher we have is 34. Mr February has never been Mr. September, October, November or December

I love this defense because it fits the times. I love this defense because it is so versatile up front, and so strong in the secondary. I love this defense BECAUSE it doesn't have any stars you have to game plan for. I love this because it was designed and built to be a week to week game plan group. I love it because opposing OC's will never know where "it" is coming from, or what they will expect to see week to week. I love this defense because it has the depth at all three levels to survive the attrition of an NFL season. I love it because of the guy who will be putting it together. I love this defense because the sum of the parts will be greater than the individual parts.

The point being that I'm less interested in the individual pieces (aside from the intellectual part about who will make it and who won't) than I am at what they can POTENTIALLY become as a whole. That is VERY exciting for me.

 

[Tunescribe]

So far, this pre-season, the youngsters on the defense have shined. This week we get to really see the Vets like Bennett and Gilmore and how they are gelling.

When it comes to just name recognition, the defense is ridiculous. Hightower, Collins, Bennett, Gilmore, DMac. Then you have unsung players like Van Noy, Chung, Jackson, Jones, Harmon, and Guy. Add to that starting quality corner in Jones and the young potential of Wise, Winovich and Bentley and this defense is scary good.

I, for one, am looking to see how the defense is with Bennett, Hightower, Collins and Gilmore on the field. On paper, they should be a nightmare for teams that don't have an All-Pro at tackle, wideout and TE..

I hope to share your optimism but am concerned about the great equalizer: NFL rules.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

IMHO, we had a top 5 defense at the end of the year.

We lost Flowers and replaced him with Bennett and Collins. Bentley is back. All the secondary is back. Jackson should be better after a year of experience.

I'm not saying that we are the best. However, I think that this defense will likely be better than the one that played in the playoffs and the Super Bowl.
=====
And no, I am not counting on rookies, although they will likely be good additions: Winovich and Williams.

My biggest concern remains run defense and our ability to get to the qb.

The secondary looks really good. The linebacking group is deeper and because of Collins better than last year.

But the dl makes me nervous,

 

[patfanken]

IMHO, we had a top 5 defense at the end of the year.

We lost Flowers and replaced him with Bennett and Collins. Bentley is back. All the secondary is back. Jackson should be better after a year of experience.

I'm not saying that we are the best. However, I think that this defense will likely be better than the one that played in the playoffs and the Super Bowl.
=====
And no, I am not counting on rookies, although they will likely be good additions: Winovich and Williams.

Like I said the success of this defense will be more about the KIND of players we have as opposed to WHO we have. I hope I can explain the subtle difference in that sentence.

Over the past couple of years Bill has assembled the KIND of players he needed to defend the way the game is played. ANY defense playing an offense under today's rules and the talent they they have out there on a week to week basis will HAVE to lose if they play them in anything close to a straight up defense. That is a defense where the offense knows where everyone is going to line up play to play. (ie 4-3 nickel or base, 3-4 nickel or base, etc. The ONLY way to compete evenly with the way offense is played and the rules is to CONSTANTLY be in some kind of alignment and personnel package that the offense doesn't expect.

Christ Bill played the Rams in a f*ucking 6-1 defense. Do you know that the 6-1 was LONG outdated back when I played HS ball and that's almost 60 years ago. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw it. BUT it wasn't what the Rams expected and it worked like a charm.

That's why I kept emphasizing the VERSATILITY aspect of this defense. Week to week it is going to change in BOTH alignments and personnel packages. I know YOU know what that will mean for teams that come to play us. They will have no f*cking idea what they are going to get until they line up for their first series. (sorry I tend to swear when it's late) WHAT an advantage! That far outweighs any talent disadvantage there might be or the fact we don't have any "individual pass rushers of note" Just like in the SB, it will be "collective pressure"

And here's where the depth comes in. Just look at the varies set of skill sets you have so deep on this team. It's for this reason I'm sure we are going to see Williams, Winovich, AND Cowart (sorry Adam Butler) making plays this year. Bill will get them into situational situations where their skill sets create favorable matchups for them.

I can picture a scenario where Williams comes in and shuts down or limits Kelce on passing downs. Cowart blows up OG's that might be vulnerable to power moves, and Winovich can line up all over the DL in week to week match ups that are favorable.

I was very nervous about that first game, even at home. No one in the league has more talent than those choking frauds. But this is the first game of the season, not the last, so my worries are growing, especially with a great OL. But I take solace in knowing that Bill knows the Steeler offense better than Tomlin does. And the difference between Ben's stats on the road as opposed to home are significant. I will be very interested to see what he does that first week and compare it with Miami in the following week.

If it's what I think we will see, we will have pundits sh!tting all over themselves trying to explain exactly what's happening.

 

[DarrylS]

From everything I have read and seen so far this year, this is the deepest and most versatile defense that I can remember.. no obvious weaknesses.

BB has finally got a swiss army knife of really good players with whom he can mix and match, what I predict is if they are healthy, we will see variations of the "playground defense" we saw in SB LII... which will be almost too complex for the pundits to understand.

Go back to the days of Tiquan and "two way Troy" when BB believed he could just "coach up" anyone and make them good D players, he has morphed into the recognition of today's game and how much it has changed...

Have thought for a while that BB is preparing for the eventual turnover of #12, a great RB corps and a great D which will take the pressure off whoever is the heir to Brady...

 

[BTTA]

Wise and Rivers have both been massive disappointments. As Round 3 and Round 4 picks I wouldn't know if busts is appropriate as you just hope for serviceable starters at that point, and they are still on the roster, but I'd say they are closer to be labelled JAGs.

The odds on a 3rd/4th round pick becoming a "serviceable starter" are about 25%, so the expectation would be that they make the back end of the roster and hang on for a few years. Given the competition for edge players this year, they are doing just fine, against the curve.

 

[Sicilian]

What I like about this defense going in is that, in theory, we shouldn't have to rely on the rookie or 2nd year players' contributions right out of the gate. Williams and Jackson can ease in behind Gilmore, McCourty, and Jones. Winovich and Bentley can ease in behind Hightower, Van Noy, Collins, and possibly Roberts. We're essentially returning the same defense that dominated the Super Bowl (replacing Flowers with Bennett) and then sprinkling in a mix of young talent + Collins that can chip in where needed and provide depth. If one of them excels and beats a vet out, even better.

 

[Ring 6]

I think Wise isn't particularly great at any one thing and may find himself outside looking in because of that.

You just described the opposite of a bill Belichick defense

He had a solid rookie year and expectations were that he'd see growth into his 2nd and now 3rd season. He has continued to be solid, but I don't think we've seen the growth that we expected or hoped for.

He did progress in year 2 and year 3 has yet to start.

He's solid against the run and physically impressive, but that's the extent of what he offers right now.

He was second on the team in sacks. The guy who was first is gone.

Bennett is a superstar lock. Calhoun is more athletic and a superior pass-rusher.

In 2 years wise has 9.5 sacks.
In 3 years Calhoun has 0.5

Simon is also a stronger pass rusher and is not slouch against the run. Winovich is a better pass-rusher. Even Rivers is a superior pass-rusher, albeit not nearly as strong against the run.

None of those players are the same role as wise. And I disagree on your evaluations.

And then you look inside along the line, and you have guys like Butler, Shelton, Pennel and Guy who are stronger against the run.

Wise is not a DT except in passing downs.

Essentially, you have one superstar (Bennett), some highly specialized pass-rushers (Calhoun, Rivers, Winovich), some highly-specialized run-stoppers (Shelton, Pennel), and some versatile players (Simon, Guy). I think Wise falls into the latter group, and I think Simon and Guy are superior players to him.

We disagree.

Just to avoid getting criticism here, while I put Simon and Guy into the versatile group, clearly Guy is more of an interior run-stopper, and Simon is strictly an edge player. That said, they offer greater versatility than the aforementioned specialists.

Again, he's solid but doesn't do anything particularly well. I think his role is a versatile, primarily run-stopping player who can move along the line. I could see him outside-looking-in, especially if the team sees Cowart as a more promising prospect at this point.

I just say no I disagree.

 

[BTTA]

Anybody have a good working theory about what's up with Pennel? If he doesn't show up as at least an average run stuffer, the D suddenly has a weakness. At this point, I'm reduced to hoping that he assumed he was a lock and started relaxing in camp, and the coaches sent him a message by playing him with the scrubs against Tennessee. FWIW, Bedard went so far as to say that if he continues to play like he did against Tennessee, he'll probably be released (!).

And then you look inside along the line, and you have guys like Butler, Shelton, Pennel and Guy who are stronger against the run.

Not sure Pennel is a lock. He was playing late in the game last night and didn’t impress against guys who will either be cut or on the Titans PS.

My biggest concern remains run defense and our ability to get to the qb.
The secondary looks really good. The linebacking group is deeper and because of Collins better than last year.
But the dl makes me nervous,

From everything I have read and seen so far this year, this is the deepest and most versatile defense that I can remember.. no obvious weaknesses.

 

[Ring 6]

Wise and Rivers have both been massive disappointments. As Round 3 and Round 4 picks I wouldn't know if busts is appropriate as you just hope for serviceable starters at that point, and they are still on the roster, but I'd say they are closer to be labelled JAGs.

Wise played the second most snaps of any DE on the team and was second on the team in sacks while being very strong against the run.
As a 4th round pick he has been a major hit.

 

[Triumph]

Its going to be an attacking defense that brings the heat when needed.

Bennett
Collins
Winovich

I believe that we will see more sacks than any other BB defense.

 

[mcmurtry86]

I think Wise isn't particularly great at any one thing and may find himself outside looking in because of that.

He had a solid rookie year and expectations were that he'd see growth into his 2nd and now 3rd season. He has continued to be solid, but I don't think we've seen the growth that we expected or hoped for.

He's solid against the run and physically impressive, but that's the extent of what he offers right now.

Bennett is a superstar lock. Calhoun is more athletic and a superior pass-rusher. Simon is also a stronger pass rusher and is not slouch against the run. Winovich is a better pass-rusher. Even Rivers is a superior pass-rusher, albeit not nearly as strong against the run.

And then you look inside along the line, and you have guys like Butler, Shelton, Pennel and Guy who are stronger against the run.

Essentially, you have one superstar (Bennett), some highly specialized pass-rushers (Calhoun, Rivers, Winovich), some highly-specialized run-stoppers (Shelton, Pennel), and some versatile players (Simon, Guy). I think Wise falls into the latter group, and I think Simon and Guy are superior players to him.

Just to avoid getting criticism here, while I put Simon and Guy into the versatile group, clearly Guy is more of an interior run-stopper, and Simon is strictly an edge player. That said, they offer greater versatility than the aforementioned specialists.

Again, he's solid but doesn't do anything particularly well. I think his role is a versatile, primarily run-stopping player who can move along the line. I could see him outside-looking-in, especially if the team sees Cowart as a more promising prospect at this point.

Calhoun and Rivers have shown nothing in regular season action. They’ve both been busts thus far in their career.

Kind of ridiculous to say they’ve shown more than Wise or say they “are” better than him at anything.

Preseason means very little when projecting regular season performance

 

[PP2]

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, and I AM very excited about our defense, but for different reasons. Let's face it, while we all like OUR players, but we also tend to overvalue them as individuals, just like every other fan base. Consider this. The Browns have 3 of their 4 starting DLmen with recent All Pro selections. I think we have one (Bennett), and that was so long ago I can't remember (2014 maybe).

I was watching a couple of preseason games today and it seems like EVERYONE has multiple stars, and EVERYONE's draft picks "look fantastic". So let remember that its preseason and our team usually starts very slowly.

I think we should focus more on what we DO have that is exciting, but unproven. We potentially have a decent DL that is made up of good but not great players who are extremely VERSATILE. We have a very deep LB group that has a make up very much like the DL. And THOSE 2 groups are anchored by the deepest AND most versatile secondary in the league. And guess what, we actually have ONE actual elite player in that group.

So lets get real we have a nice defensive group, but no one outside of NE is drooling over our defensive roster. No DC is game planning to stop ANY of our front 7 like we often have to do. The only great one on one pass rusher we have is 34. Mr February has never been Mr. September, October, November or December

I love this defense because it fits the times. I love this defense because it is so versatile up front, and so strong in the secondary. I love this defense BECAUSE it doesn't have any stars you have to game plan for. I love this because it was designed and built to be a week to week game plan group. I love it because opposing OC's will never know where "it" is coming from, or what they will expect to see week to week. I love this defense because it has the depth at all three levels to survive the attrition of an NFL season. I love it because of the guy who will be putting it together. I love this defense because the sum of the parts will be greater than the individual parts.

The point being that I'm less interested in the individual pieces (aside from the intellectual part about who will make it and who won't) than I am at what they can POTENTIALLY become as a whole. That is VERY exciting for me.

Sorry Ken, I have to disagree with you. We really do have something here. I can't remember the last time I attended a TC session where I saw the defense owning a Tom Brady offense so outright.

 

[PP2]

Calhoun and Rivers have shown nothing in regular season action. They’ve both been busts thus far in their career.

Kind of ridiculous to say they’ve shown more than Wise or say they “are” better than him at anything.

Preseason means very little when projecting regular season performance

Rivers is gone.

 

[Ring 6]

Like I said the success of this defense will be more about the KIND of players we have as opposed to WHO we have. I hope I can explain the subtle difference in that sentence.

Over the past couple of years Bill has assembled the KIND of players he needed to defend the way the game is played. ANY defense playing an offense under today's rules and the talent they they have out there on a week to week basis will HAVE to lose if they play them in anything close to a straight up defense. That is a defense where the offense knows where everyone is going to line up play to play. (ie 4-3 nickel or base, 3-4 nickel or base, etc. The ONLY way to compete evenly with the way offense is played and the rules is to CONSTANTLY be in some kind of alignment and personnel package that the offense doesn't expect.

Christ Bill played the Rams in a f*ucking 6-1 defense. Do you know that the 6-1 was LONG outdated back when I played HS ball and that's almost 60 years ago. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw it. BUT it wasn't what the Rams expected and it worked like a charm.

That's why I kept emphasizing the VERSATILITY aspect of this defense. Week to week it is going to change in BOTH alignments and personnel packages. I know YOU know what that will mean for teams that come to play us. They will have no f*cking idea what they are going to get until they line up for their first series. (sorry I tend to swear when it's late) WHAT an advantage! That far outweighs any talent disadvantage there might be or the fact we don't have any "individual pass rushers of note" Just like in the SB, it will be "collective pressure"

And here's where the depth comes in. Just look at the varies set of skill sets you have so deep on this team. It's for this reason I'm sure we are going to see Williams, Winovich, AND Cowart (sorry Adam Butler) making plays this year. Bill will get them into situational situations where their skill sets create favorable matchups for them.

I can picture a scenario where Williams comes in and shuts down or limits Kelce on passing downs. Cowart blows up OG's that might be vulnerable to power moves, and Winovich can line up all over the DL in week to week match ups that are favorable.

I was very nervous about that first game, even at home. No one in the league has more talent than those choking frauds. But this is the first game of the season, not the last, so my worries are growing, especially with a great OL. But I take solace in knowing that Bill knows the Steeler offense better than Tomlin does. And the difference between Ben's stats on the road as opposed to home are significant. I will be very interested to see what he does that first week and compare it with Miami in the following week.

If it's what I think we will see, we will have pundits sh!tting all over themselves trying to explain exactly what's happening.

Ken I love your posts and respect your knowledge but we didn’t play a 6-1

 

[Sicilian]

Rivers is gone.

Seen reports or that's just the vibe you're getting?

 

[mosi]

Any hope for Derek Rivers this year? Haven’t heard if he was seriously injured last night. Has he had a good off season?

Who? Never heard his named called in a game? Does he play for the Pats?

 

[patfanken]

Ken I love your posts and respect your knowledge but we didn’t play a 6-1

Andy, go to a clip of the Superbowl highlight. The first 2 minutes show Pats high and low lights early in the game. They don't show the defense until after the FG miss. Please pause on the FIRST showing of the Pats defense at 2:06 and tell me that is not a 6-1 alignment.

And I appreciated the compliment.

BTW- sorry about having to go thru the first 2 minutes of the clip, but I don't have the ability to isolate a screen shot.

 

[Ring 6]

Andy, go to a clip of the Superbowl highlight. The first 2 minutes show Pats high and low lights early in the game. They don't show the defense until after the FG miss. Please pause on the FIRST showing of the Pats defense at 2:06 and tell me that is not a 6-1 alignment.

And I appreciated the compliment.

BTW- sorry about having to go thru the first 2 minutes of the clip, but I don't have the ability to isolate a screen shot.

42 nickel.
4 dl
kvn on the line LB
HT MLB
Chung at safety playing in the box near the line on the left end and covering the flat.
4 other dbs.

 

[Clonamery]

Rivers is gone.

Calhoun?