2019 Front Six

[TheRainMaker]

I don't think this group is bad at all going into the offseason. Yes, we need to replace Flowers. Yes, we need to draft a DT and a LB, but we start with a good group.

DL: Wise, Guy, Clayborne, Brown, Butler, Simon
LB: Hightower, Van Noy, Roberts, Bentley, Sam
ST: King

???: Rivers, Davis, Shelton

I read your thread, and conclude that we are in fine shape. Sure we can use a draft pick or two to upgrade, and will need to re-sign or replace Flowers, but the core is a top 10 defense.

This current group hinges on how they end the season. If they have another disastrous Super Bowl performance, I see it getting gutted like @JayNM said above. It's no secret that some of the best defenses BB had where when he had a brick wall NT like Ted Washington, Keith Traylor and then Vince Wilfork. They need to find this somewhere this off season. Secondly, whether they keep Flowers or not, they need to find more talented pass rushers. I thought Rivers could be that guy as @BaconGrundleCandy had some great clips off of twitter showing him beating OT's badly in the preseason only to see him disappear in the regular season.

At LB, they need to find a rangy player like they were now rumored to try to draft a few years ago in Jaylon Smith or Myles Jack.

 

[mgteich]

I understand your position. It simply doesn't matter what talent we or how they play, except in the Super Bowl. If they get beaten badly (or in a playoff game), then we need to find the scapegoats and fire them. NOT

This current group hinges on how they end the season. If they have another disastrous Super Bowl performance, I see it getting gutted like @JayNM said above. It's no secret that some of the best defenses BB had where when he had a brick wall NT like Ted Washington, Keith Traylor and then Vince Wilfork. They need to find this somewhere this off season. Secondly, whether they keep Flowers or not, they need to find more talented pass rushers. I thought Rivers could be that guy as @BaconGrundleCandy had some great clips off of twitter showing him beating OT's badly in the preseason only to see him disappear in the regular season.

At LB, they need to find a rangy player like they were now rumored to try to draft a few years ago in Jaylon Smith or Myles Jack.

 

[mcmurtry86]

The talent along the DL, outside of Flowers, is awful. Guy is a useful piece, but the rest are marginal rotational guys or worse. Wise and Butler haven’t take a step forward, Brown and Shelton are terrible and Clayborn is an overpriced dud. How many contending teams have worse DL talent? Flowers is a stud but the group is bottom 5-7 in the league without him

The LB group has no depth. Hightower does look better now than in September and Van Noy and Roberts are average players but they need a second quality LB and a #4 who isn’t a special teams only type

There’s a reason this D has fewer sacks through 12 games than any Belichick team in a decade+ (Maybe since 2002). The talent is quite bad up front. They need to totally rebuild the group of Flowers leaves. As it is, they need at least 2 good DT and another solid DE. That’s a big lift in one offseason even without the huge challenge of replacing the best or 2nd best defender they have.

 

[TheRainMaker]

They were so desperate they put Trey flowers over the center against both greenbay and Minnesota

They regularly do this and I think it's a waste for Flowers as he can get a good bull rush from the outside when they let him loose.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

They regularly do this and I think it's a waste for Flowers as he can get a good bull rush from the outside when they let him loose.

Lack of interior personnel. At this point they have to do it and dare people to run

 

[Ochmed Jones]

We ask our dt’s to two gap first and rush the passer second. In our defense they will never have a chance at being great rushers.

However, because we ask them to play two gap, they should be excellent run defenders.

As for the ends, if they can not set the edge, they will never see the field. Earlier in the year, we got roasted by ends that could not set the edge.

My guess is bb resigns flowers, brown and gotkowski.

In the draft, he has a chance to get several dt’s as this draft is loaded. In addition, I like Ferguson as our pass rushing end.
Plus he can two good linebackers in Jennings and Miller of Alabama in the third round.

 

[supafly]

Possible but not likely. I was OK with letting Chandler Jones walk but this one will hurt a little more I think. More than anything letting Flowers walk comes down to BBs thoughts on the upside of Wise and Bently.

The front 6/7 isn’t in terrible shape, but I certainly don’t think things worked out as planned, either. As it pertains to next year, improvements will be made, and that’s not going to come from taking away the one player who has actually proven himself worthy of earning a second contract here.

As you said, take away Trey Flowers and you’re left with a glaring need. I think we could see a couple of higher round picks in the front 6/7. I actually think it’s “the” area that one would look to, first. Shelton and Brown have been rather unremarkable, Rivers looks like there’s a good shot that he’s not going to work out, Clayborn isn’t likely to be back without cutting his salary in half, HT is fine for another year but has clearly lost a step, and Bentley/Sam are preseason stars but unproven in real game settings. Wise is an okay depth option, but can certainly be improved upon.

Larry Guy is earning his pay. Trey Flowers is earning his pay. KVN is earning his pay, but is probably playing over his head. Elandon Roberts is having a fine enough season, but is limited in what we can reasonably ask him to do. We need some big, strong, first/second round run stuffers and a bit of athleticism at the LB position.

 

[DarrylS]

With so many teams having a ton of cap space Flowers will demand and get a great deal, which will leave a huge hole in our D.. unless the Pats want to get creative, which according to their track record I have some reservations about that pipe dream...

SPOTRAC has the Pats as having 100 million in cap space in 2020 with 24 players under contract, so if they could backload his contract it could be easier than expected...

 

[mgteich]

I think that you miss our point.

I AGREE that the patriots can afford to pay Flowers $12M or $15M or even $20M AAV. That just isn't the Belichick way.

With so many teams having a ton of cap space Flowers will demand and get a great deal, which will leave a huge hole in our D.. unless the Pats want to get creative, which according to their track record I have some reservations about that pipe dream...

SPOTRAC has the Pats as having 100 million in cap space in 2020 with 24 players under contract, so if they could backload his contract it could be easier than expected...

 

[maineman209]

I think that you miss our point.

I AGREE that the patriots can afford to pay Flowers $12M or $15M or even $20M AAV. That just isn't the Belichick way.

Gilmore = $13M AAV on a five-year contract. That's top-8 for cornerbacks.

 

[mgteich]

Gilmore = $13M AAV on a five-year contract. That's top-8 for cornerbacks.

And, perhaps the patriots will be willing to pay Flowers $13M AAV, if he is available for that amount. I do think that #1 corners are worth more.

 

[ashley]

And, perhaps the patriots will be willing to pay Flowers $13M AAV, if he is available for that amount. I do think that #1 corners are worth more.

I hope we pay Flowers in the offseason, him and Gilmore are by far our two best defensive players, after them, there is a significant drop off. Imagine our d-line without Flowers, I don't want to, almost as much as I don't want to see Roberts ever put on Pat uniform again.

 

[mgteich]

I agree with regard to Flowers.

I find it interesting that all the good play in recent weeks by Roberts has not influenced your opinion of him. IMHO, he is well worth having as a run-stopping backup.

I hope we pay Flowers in the offseason, him and Gilmore are by far our two best defensive players, after them, there is a significant drop off. Imagine our d-line without Flowers, I don't want to, almost as much as I don't want to see Roberts ever put on Pat uniform again.

 

[ashley]

I agree with regard to Flowers.

I find it interesting that all the good play in recent weeks by Roberts has not influenced your opinion of him. IMHO, he is well worth having as a run-stopping backup.

Definitely respect your opinion mgteich and enjoy reading your posts, but I've seen too many bad plays by Roberts over the course of the past two years to think anything different. He'll have one decent play and then a few bad plays. I just want an upgrade at that position

 

[RayClay]

Is anyone here a former NFL GM or player personnel director? I suppose it's possible and would very informative when saying what teams will or can pay and what contract terms will be necessary.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Is anyone here a former NFL GM or player personnel director? I suppose it's possible and would very informative when saying what teams will or can pay and what contract terms will be necessary.

It’s fine for people on the board to state their opinions, but when they start to throw out arbitrary numbers is when gets ridiculous. Still nobody can state why Flowers warrants to be one of the highest paid DE’s in the NFL. The thought of that actually happening is asinine.

 

[mcmurtry86]

I get it. You consider our current defensive front just awful.

I consider that it is respectable and will be improved by adding bentley (and perhaps Sam) next year, in addition to any other signees or draftees.

It is simply a matter of judgement and perspective.

Looking very respectable today. 140 yards rushing allowed in less than a half and no pressure outside of blitzing. Redefining “championship caliber” week in and week out

 

[DarrylS]

I think that you miss our point.

I AGREE that the patriots can afford to pay Flowers $12M or $15M or even $20M AAV. That just isn't the Belichick way.

My guess is that you did not read my post.. which was immersed in skepticism.

 

[mgteich]

My guess is that you did not read my post.. which was immersed in skepticism.

OK, I apologize. I should have read more carefully.

 

[RayClay]

It’s fine for people on the board to state their opinions, but when they start to throw out arbitrary numbers is when gets ridiculous. Still nobody can state why Flowers warrants to be one of the highest paid DE’s in the NFL. The thought of that actually happening is asinine.

Usually it involves paying three players enough to fill up the salary cap alone. I actually think it's pretty complicated to fit a whole team under it.