Rumor: Some Patriots Players Have Doubts About Cam Newton

[tom444]

Has he, though? His seasons without Brady as his QB1 would seem to indicate that your position is suspect, and that this has, quite possibly, been more of an elongated run with an elite QB sort of thing (i.e. Reid with Mahomes, Seifert with Young, etc...).

Where'd you get that, off a Steelers board?

 

[Tunescribe]

I'm just going to go ahead and say it clearly...

They hate their coach.

::Que the duckboats::

Cue.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Whether or not you prefer the dynasty 1.0 guys better, Hightower and McCourty are absolutely in the same stratum as Vrabel, Bruschi, and McGinest. Team captains, three rings each, clutch plays in the postseason, lifetime Patriots. They're not just "some good vets".

Absolutely. Hightower, McCourty, Chung have 3 rings and I would put those guys in the mix if not at the very top of their positions as all time Patriot greats. Better than Milloy/Rodney or Bruschi/Vrabel/McGinest.

.

 

[Deus Irae]

Where'd you get that, off a Steelers board?

No.


Troll better.

 

[tom444]

No.

Rex Ryan?

 

[Penn State Patriot]

You don't evaluate players based solely upon one thing. You don't evaluate coaches based solely upon one thing.

I completely agree. However, who players and coaches were surrounded by always seems to be brought up in discussion and matter more than it should when evaluating their legacy. It’s the whole “Michael never won without Scottie” argument, as if it diminishes Jordan’s legacy that the Bulls went out and found a really talented player to play alongside him. The only way to judge a player or coach, in my opinion, is through the eye test. My eye test tells me Brady and Manning are the greatest QBs of my lifetime and Belichick and Parcells are the greatest coaches.

 

[sb1]

Ultimately brady leaving will end up being the right thing.
They would not have won last year with him. It’s not even debatable because they had no chance to win the year before with him and if he stayed there would have been no resources to improve the roster, or even keep it the same because other free agents couldn’t be retained as well.
The free agent spending that rebuilt half of this team could not have happened because it was fueled by 50+ million saved by not paying Brady last year and this.
Keeping Brady would have meant surrounding him with the worst team of his career, and hoping to rebuild and contend when he was 45 or 46.
I know it’s an emotional topic for many posters but Brady leaving ultimately was best for him and best for the patriots.

Definitely best for Brady himself. Is it for the best for the Patriots - that remains to be seen.

Why does keeping Brady mean they have to surround him with "the worst team of his career"? Pats made it clear in the last few months they are not rebuilding, they just went out and bought a bunch of talent. Could have done that with Brady here. If that happened they are contenders and have as good a chance as anyone for a title. Instead we don't know how good they are because we don't know what we're getting at QB.

 

[sb1]

It’s not like he’s putting together a band of misfits and coming up short in the waning seconds of the Super Bowl.

He’s 61-72 without Brady with one playoff berth and one playoff win in seven seasons.

How one can just brush that off is nuts. That’s a lot of games. That’s a huge sample size.

Currently Team Bill is in the midst of seeing whether or not Mac Jones succeeds. If he succeeds, it’s because of a next level development system, incredibly good scouting, and Bill/Josh imparting football wisdom on him. If he fails, it’s because he was never going to make it.

That‘s the logic behind every Patriots homer discussion on this forum. It‘s just like last year’s outcome…everything they said Bill would do (give them an advantage with coaching, improve team as season goes on, ensure team is always motivated and can hang with anyone) the opposite happened, so they just moved the goalposts (the team had the talent of a 3-13 squad! and great coaching is how they won 7 games.) That team had an over/under of 9 wins, which was about the same as the Bucs (9.5).

Not even worth trying to discuss anymore. You’re wrong because you don’t personally have six rings, and then you’re wrong because through hindsight, it turns out Bill gave us the best possible outcome.

The Patriots defense woulda allowed 60 points in SB52 with Butler, Brady woulda only wun 9 games and then we’d be screwed forever after that, that Bucs team was already going to be elite, etc. etc.

Bill being sub .500 as a coach without Brady isn't a stain on his legacy. He's not the only all time great coach to struggle without a great QB.

Spygate is a stain on his legacy, as is the decision to throw away a Super Bowl by benching his best corner and set the events in motion that led to the departure of the GOAT.

 

[fnordcircle]

You don't evaluate players based solely upon one thing. You don't evaluate coaches based solely upon one thing.

Also Deus:

BB is a terrible GM because he doesn't draft good WRs.

 

[Ring 6]

I have always been confused by this argument so I would love it if someone could clarify it for me. I generally try to avoid the “who is the greatest” debate for these reasons. The logic that any player who plays alongside other great players takes away from their accomplishments. Great coaches can’t be as great as they are because they coached great players. Using the logic from the posts above, wouldn’t Joe Gibbs be considered the greatest coach? Who else won three superbowls with three different QBs, who were good but not HOF worthy.

Definitely best for Brady himself. Is it for the best for the Patriots - that remains to be seen.

Why does keeping Brady mean they have to surround him with "the worst team of his career"? Pats made it clear in the last few months they are not rebuilding, they just went out and bought a bunch of talent. Could have done that with Brady here. If that happened they are contenders and have as good a chance as anyone for a title. Instead we don't know how good they are because we don't know what we're getting at QB.

They would have had to surround him with the worst team of his career because arguably 2019 already was and the reality was if they paid him the team would have deteriorated from 19 to 20, and the money they spend this year wouldn’t have been there. It would have had to be a cap strained rebuilding of the roster. They carried over cap from last year and had about 60 mill to spend. The majority of that would have been gone by paying Brady 50 million over those 2 years. Would you really like to have seen Brady stay for a few more years that looked like the second half of 2019?

 

[amfootball]

Hightower goes down in my book as the best defensive player of the belichick era. Ironically the fact that it’s hard to prove with stats is the proof, because Hightower has been so valuable that he has played multiple roles, doing what is needed rather than be cut loose to just focus in being great at one thing.
I’d rank Seymour 2nd. There would be a lot of debate around longevity vs peak play after that.

Yeah. I would have Law and Rodney up there too.

 

[amfootball]

They would have had to surround him with the worst team of his career because arguably 2019 already was and the reality was if they paid him the team would have deteriorated from 19 to 20, and the money they spend this year wouldn’t have been there. It would have had to be a cap strained rebuilding of the roster. They carried over cap from last year and had about 60 mill to spend. The majority of that would have been gone by paying Brady 50 million over those 2 years. Would you really like to have seen Brady stay for a few more years that looked like the second half of 2019?

I doubt Brady does a contract anything like that that would have hamstrung the team. He was always restructuring and taking below market deals so Bill could build the team. He wasn't looking for big bucks, he wanted a multi-year commitment that would take him to age 45. Remember Bill was going to bring him back probably making low 20s on a one year deal so Bill saw a way to rebuild and keep Brady for 2020. Brady did not want to go year to year and I don't blame for that. But the cap excuse is silly when you are talking about a Qb who always worked with Bill to ensure his contract was favorable to the team.

 

[Ring 6]

I doubt Brady does a contract anything like that that would have hamstrung the team. He was always restructuring and taking below market deals so Bill could build the team. He wasn't looking for big bucks, he wanted a multi-year commitment that would take him to age 45. Remember Bill was going to bring him back probably making low 20s on a one year deal so Bill saw a way to rebuild and keep Brady for 2020. Brady did not want to go year to year and I don't blame for that. But the cap excuse is silly when you are talking about a Qb who always worked with Bill to ensure his contract was favorable to the team.

Huh? He left because of his contract. He signed with Tampa for 25 mill a year.
The cap reality is not an excuse.
The team had less than 1 million left last year when it signed Newton. It would have had less of it signed Brady.
With carryover from last year, from
Opt outs, both Brady’s 2020 and 2021 number would have been subtracted from the number we had to work with this year.
He wasn’t (and shouldn’t) playing for nothing.
The reason the team was able to rebuild was that it had 60 mill in cap space. Take 2 years of Brady pay away from that and those free agents aren’t here. The team literally replaced half of its starters.
With Brady resigned, the team around him would resemble the team that was here the 2nd half of 2019. It’s simple math and facts

 

[203Pat]

Ultimately brady leaving will end up being the right thing.
They would not have won last year with him. It’s not even debatable because they had no chance to win the year before with him and if he stayed there would have been no resources to improve the roster, or even keep it the same because other free agents couldn’t be retained as well.
The free agent spending that rebuilt half of this team could not have happened because it was fueled by 50+ million saved by not paying Brady last year and this.
Keeping Brady would have meant surrounding him with the worst team of his career, and hoping to rebuild and contend when he was 45 or 46.
I know it’s an emotional topic for many posters but Brady leaving ultimately was best for him and best for the patriots.

How was it the right thing? If we had a true successor in place I could see that argument but instead we had a guy who looks like he will never start a game here and a guy off the scrap heap picked up in June. We really needed to accelerate getting to that?

As for the free agent spending we're just claiming that as a victory before a single game has been played? I would rather have a great QB and $30 million dollars than no QB and $50+ million dollars to spend. For years we have laughed at the Dolphins and Redskins of the world for being "offseason champs" and now we are celebrating the fact that the roster was so devoid of talent we needed to spend money in almost every position group.

Can anyone with a straight face tell me that we would have been 7-9 with Brady as the QB last year? I know all the Bill bobos will claim they would rather start the rebuild than make the playoffs (god forbid) and lose but I am not on that train. You play to win. You play to make the playoffs. Once you're in anything can happen. I know everyone on this board acts like they never give up on that 2018 team (same way everyone now claims they knew the Patriots would come back from 28-3) but that team was far from great and clicked at the right time. If you don't make the playoffs that can't happen.

 

[RobertWeathers]

How was it the right thing? If we had a true successor in place I could see that argument but instead we had a guy who looks like he will never start a game here and a guy off the scrap heap picked up in June. We really needed to accelerate getting to that?

As for the free agent spending we're just claiming that as a victory before a single game has been played? I would rather have a great QB and $30 million dollars than no QB and $50+ million dollars to spend. For years we have laughed at the Dolphins and Redskins of the world for being "offseason champs" and now we are celebrating the fact that the roster was so devoid of talent we needed to spend money in almost every position group.

Can anyone with a straight face tell me that we would have been 7-9 with Brady as the QB last year? I know all the Bill bobos will claim they would rather start the rebuild than make the playoffs (god forbid) and lose but I am not on that train. You play to win. You play to make the playoffs. Once you're in anything can happen. I know everyone on this board acts like they never give up on that 2018 team (same way everyone now claims they knew the Patriots would come back from 28-3) but that team was far from great and clicked at the right time. If you don't make the playoffs that can't happen.

Yea I would never say Tom Brady leaving the NEP was the right thing but from a cap and team-building standpoint it did accelerate the rebuild as there was space.

It's impossible to say what their record would have been last year with Tom but I think something between 12-4 and 7-9 would be a reasonable guess.

 

[1960Pats]

There's a lot of reason to have doubts about Newton. That doesn't mean he won't be the best choice to start the season.

I still trust BB and Josh to make the right call. Sometimes it's best to throw a talented rookie in early on (Peyton). Sometimes, if you have the pieces in place an experienced guy can make it work. I just think they'll know what to do.

I don't think they were wrong in letting Brady go. To have the success he had, he had to go to a perfect situation and have the usual luck now and then. I doubt they were shocked he won another SB, but they probably didn't expect all the pieces to fall in place the way they did. Also, as far as I can see, he wanted to move on...see if the grass on the other side of the fence was really greener and maybe show that he could succeed without Belichick and McDaniels. But no one knows what's going on inside his head but TB12.

If Cant Newton is the best choice they have at QB then this team is in trouble, now and in the future.

Not only were the Pats wrong in letting Brady go, it was the worst move by a Boston sports team since Ruth. If TB12 was still with the team they'd probably be one of the favorites to win the SB.

I'm not that interested in Brady having success. I'm a Pats fan first.

 

[1960Pats]

It always turns into “Yeah well he’s done good things!” Obviously. Kicking out the greatest QB of all time too early is clearly not one of them.

Biggest blunder since Babe Ruth

 

[1960Pats]

How can “Cam be hard to unseat”? He is among the worst few starting QBs in the league, probably half the teams have better backups than him.
I would list him and Andy Dalton as the 2 easiest to unseat starting QBs in the entire league.

If I had a choice I'd take Dalton in a heartbeat. At least he knows what's going on and can get the ball close.

I saw a post upstream with the thought of Cam as a TE. Seeing how he shied away from a loose ball in a big SB situation I'd be a tad skeptical, but he couldn't be any worse than he is as a QB.

 

[1960Pats]

I have always been confused by this argument so I would love it if someone could clarify it for me. I generally try to avoid the “who is the greatest” debate for these reasons. The logic that any player who plays alongside other great players takes away from their accomplishments. Great coaches can’t be as great as they are because they coached great players. Using the logic from the posts above, wouldn’t Joe Gibbs be considered the greatest coach? Who else won three superbowls with three different QBs, who were good but not HOF worthy.

Gibbs won with the best players on the field that day, just like BB. If Gibbs had a HOF QB for 20 years he would have had an even better record.
How would the 49ers have done without Montana?
The Giants D under BB without LT?
Winning is about the players, not the coaches.

 

[Ring 6]

How was it the right thing? If we had a true successor in place I could see that argument but instead we had a guy who looks like he will never start a game here and a guy off the scrap heap picked up in June. We really needed to accelerate getting to that?

As for the free agent spending we're just claiming that as a victory before a single game has been played? I would rather have a great QB and $30 million dollars than no QB and $50+ million dollars to spend. For years we have laughed at the Dolphins and Redskins of the world for being "offseason champs" and now we are celebrating the fact that the roster was so devoid of talent we needed to spend money in almost every position group.

Can anyone with a straight face tell me that we would have been 7-9 with Brady as the QB last year? I know all the Bill bobos will claim they would rather start the rebuild than make the playoffs (god forbid) and lose but I am not on that train. You play to win. You play to make the playoffs. Once you're in anything can happen. I know everyone on this board acts like they never give up on that 2018 team (same way everyone now claims they knew the Patriots would come back from 28-3) but that team was far from great and clicked at the right time. If you don't make the playoffs that can't happen.

Hey you can have whatever criteria you want. Mine is that a 3 year extension of 2019, and largely the second half of 2019, scrambling to make the playoffs and being one and done, with a QB in his 40s doesnt interest me.
If Brady stayed we weren’t winning because we saw what 2019 looked like and we were still 3 years away from having the resources to improve the team.
You yourself just said the roster was devoid of talent and you are skeptical with all of the influx of talent that the team will be good, so you’ve answer it yourself. Without it, the team would be awful. Brady wasn’t elevating it in 2019 and would be dealing with roughly the same squad now.

When I say ultimately the best move, it’s because we would not have competed for a championship before Brady retired if he stayed.
Rebooting now rather than holding on emotionally was a smarter move.
Of course the team would be better with Brady, but it wasn’t going to be good enough, so they needed to move on.