Reche Caldwell,Will he Start again next year?

[SeanBruschi54]

Great? You are an easy marker. He had 6 catches for 25 yards yesterday. Great is top ten, Caldwell is not even in the top 41.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=rec&sort=yds&league=nfl&season=2&year=2006

He is an adequate replacement for Givens and could potentially be a very good #3 or an ok #2.

As a unit they are the worst in the NFL, if they come back with Caldwell - Jackson - Gaffney - Brown they will remain near the bottom. Jackson could develop into a nice #2 but they need someone who can be a #1 or a #1A. If Brown comes back and can be a #5 WR then that is fine, anything more than that is a clear indication of a poor WR unit.

Brady spreads it around too much to have top receivers so your point is invalid.

 

[PatsSteve1]

I hope Jackson lives up to his draft status and we pick up some other WR's that mean Calwell doesn't even make the team. That's probably not likely to happen, but why settle for Caldwell? I feel that way about every player on the team. Why not hope for better.

 

[Steamer86]

I like the idea of taking a WR every year in the 7th as it seems like many good ones are around in the late rounds (Colston 7th, Crayton 7th, Housh 7th, Driver 7th, Givens 7th, Ronald Curry 7th) and many early picks turn into busts. This could be said about any position, but just seems more so with WRs....You almost never see good DL in 7th, which is why BB likes to use his 1st rounders there. I would love to see DL in first every year....Warren, Wilfork, Seymour....it doesn't get any better than that - once that pick is made you can light your smoke and know that the draft was a success....

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I like the idea of taking a WR every year in the 7th as it seems like many good ones are around in the late rounds (Colston 7th, Crayton 7th, Housh 7th, Driver 7th, Givens 7th, Ronald Curry 7th) and many early picks turn into busts. This could be said about any position, but just seems more so with WRs....You almost never see good DL in 7th, which is why BB likes to use his 1st rounders there. I would love to see DL in first every year....Warren, Wilfork, Seymour....it doesn't get any better than that - once that pick is made you can light your smoke and know that the draft was a success....

I agree
I BEG Pioli to stop drafting WRs in the 2nd round

 

[PatsDeb]

How can we not be homies!!! GO PATS!!

 

[PatsFanInVa]

There's a lot of talk about being a #1 receiver, a #2 receiver, etc. (not draft order, pecking order.)

What does this look like, Oakland?

We can generally use those tags as shorthand for talent level, but remember, the Pats' game works best as a spread attack. That doesn't mean we can't use a speedy vertical threat; it just means that competency across the board produces excellence in aggregate (just as on some teams, excellence at one WR position produces competency for others - the Moulds/Price effect.)

The number 1 receiver on a Pats team is the open guy, end of story. I think everybody can relate to getting the best player you can for a certain position, but for the Pats it's always been a story of Brady making decent players better, by finding the open man. Although it's been a lurching up and down season, he's still posting decent QB numbers, with "no true #1" on the team.

So yeah from a talent level point of view, sure it would be great to have gotten a Javon Walker, but from the POV of Pats value tags, these guys never seem to make the bang-for-the-buck cut. Basically they know Brady can make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, and paying him handsomely to do so acts as a cheaper way to have an effective receiving corps.

If you have the threat of a vertical game, it can get you back in the game in cases where you fall behind. But more important in NE, the threat keeps the defense honest, and makes it so you can not just focus on stopping the ball-control game the Pats seem to prefer. For that reason, yes, one of those circus freak producers would be fantastic to have. Yes, let's all hope Chad Jackson is that guy.

But I just don't see the Pats putting their eggs in the superstar receiver basket, ever. The relatively level playing field at Pats skill positions will probably remain about that, rather than a cap-hell producing ego fest, or an unbalanced situation where the pecking order is either combatted constantly (think Dallas), or where it takes over (any team with a defined #1, #2, etc.) The money "true" #1s command may just not be a wise place for NE to make the investment.

PFnV

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Of course Reche will be starting next year. And after how he has handled this year he deserves it on this team.

Where are you guys who demand the Pats get a starter getting them from? Rob0729 made a great post on the first page which pointed to the dearth of FA wide receivers. Add to this that Deion set the price for a good/not great WR at $6M/yr with a pretty good bonus and I don't see any way the Pats acquire a guy in the offseason who enters camp as a starter.

The other way to get guys is the draft. Hmm, the team has pressing needs elsewhere (DB & LB) and spent a 2nd rounder on a WR last year. I doubt they (and hope they don't) spend anything better than a 5th on one. besides, even 2nd round picks can't be expected to contribute their first year.

Making WR acquisitions even more problematic is the fact that the Pats like to avoid headcases, and the WR position has a monopoly on those. Also add to all of this that the Patriots value receivers much less than other teams and I don't see any big acquisitions. And they can care less about splashy pick-ups.

they'll enter camp with the same crew from the end of this year, along with a lesser FA or two (like Caldwell, Hayes, Patten, and other WRs brought on in recent years) and maybe a late pick or rookie FA. they'll hope that Chad advances. reche will definitely start early on in the season due to his familiarity. Hopefully one of the lesser FAs steps up big and overtakes the guys from this year. Maybe chad cracks the starting lineup. Until both of these happen Reche will be starting.

But nothing I said is any fun. Let's go back to Lala Land where the Patriots need to acquire a #1 this offseason.

I swear, do most of you people even follow this team?

 

[JoeSixPat]

Of course Reche will be starting next year. And after how he has handled this year he deserves it on this team.

Where are you guys who demand the Pats get a starter getting them from? Rob0729 made a great post on the first page which pointed to the dearth of FA wide receivers. Add to this that Deion set the price for a good/not great WR at $6M/yr with a pretty good bonus and I don't see any way the Pats acquire a guy in the offseason who enters camp as a starter.

The other way to get guys is the draft. Hmm, the team has pressing needs elsewhere (DB & LB) and spent a 2nd rounder on a WR last year. I doubt they (and hope they don't) spend anything better than a 5th on one. besides, even 2nd round picks can't be expected to contribute their first year.

Making WR acquisitions even more problematic is the fact that the Pats like to avoid headcases, and the WR position has a monopoly on those. Also add to all of this that the Patriots value receivers much less than other teams and I don't see any big acquisitions. And they can care less about splashy pick-ups.

they'll enter camp with the same crew from the end of this year, along with a lesser FA or two (like Caldwell, Hayes, Patten, and other WRs brought on in recent years) and maybe a late pick or rookie FA. they'll hope that Chad advances. reche will definitely start early on in the season due to his familiarity. Hopefully one of the lesser FAs steps up big and overtakes the guys from this year. Maybe chad cracks the starting lineup. Until both of these happen Reche will be starting.

But nothing I said is any fun. Let's go back to Lala Land where the Patriots need to acquire a #1 this offseason.

I swear, do most of you people even follow this team?

Geeze, you know, you're completely right.... like you said, there's no guarantees about free agency

And now that the NFL has banned all trades that just leaves no other option beside the draft (and as we all know rookie WRs usually take time to develop even if some fans want to give up on a player after less than one season)

My only lament is that you weren't posting here in 2001 & 2002. At that time we had a GREAT #1 WR named Troy Brown who was averaging nearly 100 passes a season.

Since we already had a #1 WR at that time you maybe could have stopped those numskulls in the front office from keeping Branch and Givens and worse yet, even giving Derrick Mason the most lucrative offer of any team. Clearly, looking at Troy's numbers anyone who was following the team knew there was no need to bring in other WRs.

What the hell were they thinking, actually offering a #1 WR free agent a fair market value deal????? These guys don't know WHAT they are doing clearly. Thank God Mason turned down that offer.

No... I recant my "too soon to say" opinion here. No other WRs will be brought in to compete. Caldwell's the #1. We won't make the same mistake we did by not giving Troy the #1 WR job.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

Why were these two thread merged???

 

[T-ShirtDynasty]

Why were these two thread merged???

There was no thread merge here, I assure you. And I was as confused as you. My guess is less than stellar poll-creation skills?

 

[SeanBruschi54]

There was no thread merge here, I assure you. And I was as confused as you. My guess is less than stellar poll-creation skills?

Well a few hours ago i was on the first page voting for this topic of where will the Pats finish the playoffs.

I come home and im on page 5 of will reche caldwell start next year.

Talk about weird.

 

[T-ShirtDynasty]

Well a few hours ago i was on the first page voting for this topic of where will the Pats finish the playoffs.

I come home and im on page 5 of will reche caldwell start next year.

Talk about weird.

Wow, that's weird... but you're not losing your mind. You're talking about this thread here : http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=47377

Right? Same poll, two different threads. Must be a database error or something.

 

[SeanBruschi54]

Wow, that's weird... but you're not losing your mind. You're talking about this thread here : http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=47377

Right? Same poll, two different threads. Must be a database error or something.

Yup thats it.

But where the hell did my post go???

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Geeze, you know, you're completely right.... like you said, there's no guarantees about free agency

And now that the NFL has banned all trades that just leaves no other option beside the draft (and as we all know rookie WRs usually take time to develop even if some fans want to give up on a player after less than one season)

My only lament is that you weren't posting here in 2001 & 2002. At that time we had a GREAT #1 WR named Troy Brown who was averaging nearly 100 passes a season.

Since we already had a #1 WR at that time you maybe could have stopped those numskulls in the front office from keeping Branch and Givens and worse yet, even giving Derrick Mason the most lucrative offer of any team. Clearly, looking at Troy's numbers anyone who was following the team knew there was no need to bring in other WRs.

What the hell were they thinking, actually offering a #1 WR free agent a fair market value deal????? These guys don't know WHAT they are doing clearly. Thank God Mason turned down that offer.

No... I recant my "too soon to say" opinion here. No other WRs will be brought in to compete. Caldwell's the #1. We won't make the same mistake we did by not giving Troy the #1 WR job.

So you want to compare '06 to '01 then. Fine, let's give it a try.

First, wtf does Derrick Mason have to do with things? He was on the market after the '04 season, so you're already off on the wrong foot here.

Ok, back to '01. We can agree the team had issues at WR. After the season they added two low level FAs, Patten and Hayes. they drafted Deion in the 2nd and Givens in the 7th. They kept Troy around.

Ok, let's look at what I said they'd do after this year. Add low level FAs. check. keep guys from this year. check. draft a receiver on day 1? they already did that last year, no need to do that again. Draft a guy after the 5th round? sure, why not.

Now let's get back to my good points which you completely ignored. Who are these #1 FA WRs the Pats should be going after? Fell free to respond with a list of names rather than some lame "there are some good guys out there" or other piece of subjective crap.

Should the patriots be offering $6M a year for these guys? there are lots of teams with lots of money out there this offseason. teams will have money to spend and the pats will have to at least compete with their offers. Derrick Mason would not come cheaply (or on short years) this year.

Do the Patriots like to avoid headcases? Well there goes guys like Moss, Owens, Porter, etc.

Do the patriots still value receivers less than other teams (part of this being that other teams tend to overvalue WRs)? Hmm, that seems like a barrier to an expensive pick-up which isn't changing.

Do the Patriots have more pressing needs in the draft? A few linebackers and defensive backs would sure look nice out of the draft. Maybe a fullback, or a new RB to replace Dillon or Faulk. You can always use more linemen. Oh, and trading picks for future picks might be a good idea.

Oh I forgot, you mentioned trades. Gotta love those football trades, they happen all the time. let's see, teams trade guys like moss because they're headcases. no thank you. they also trade marginal guys who are only providing depth (Andre Davis, Doug Gabriel). sure, they can trade for one of those. i wouldn't slot him in as a starter ahead of caldwell though. the other reason teams trade guys is simply to get value back, and since we've already established that the Patriots value WRs much less than other teams this doesn't seem a good fit.

JoeSixPat, reread this post again if need be. see what it contains (other than some vitriol)? It's called substance. presentation of ideas and logical conclusions. there's even some decent information in here. Now go ahead and reread your post. i see some condescension, there's some hyperbole, an irrelevant example (Mason), and some abuse of elipses and the dreaded "????." I don't see much of value in there. I'm looking for something constructive but just can't find it.

maybe this place would have been better if I were posting here in '01-'02 if your post is an example of what the site had to offer. Maybe I'd have raised the standards a little.

 

[DarrylS]

Cannot understand why so many are enamored with so call big play receivers? This year Brady threw 24 TD passes, #4 in the whole league, to less than big play receivers. Why do things differently? The economy of this franchise is that we tie up a lot of money in our trenches players, those 12 who block and fight blockers and tackle, a lot of money on a qb and some money on a bunch of complimentary players. To think that this will change is shortsighted. Next year I see:

Chad Jackson #1
Reche Caldwell #2
Jabar Gaffney #3
Troy or replacement #4

Everyone likes the Marvin Harrisons, Chad Jackson's or the world.. but they have never won a SB. They stretch the field and look sexy, but they don't have any rings and their D is suspect. The '01 team is a perfect example, where are most of them now? Last years top two Deion is now struggling in Seattle and Givens is out hurt, the formula has worked and there is no need to change it. When the draft comes and the highest rated player they have is a WR when it is their turn to pick they may go for it. I suspect though, they will continue to build this team for the future in the trenches and pick up a lot of utility/journey types to compliment our already fine corps of receivers.

 

[JoeSixPat]

So you want to compare '06 to '01 then. Fine, let's give it a try.

First, wtf does Derrick Mason have to do with things? He was on the market after the '04 season, so you're already off on the wrong foot here.

Ok, back to '01. We can agree the team had issues at WR. After the season they added two low level FAs, Patten and Hayes. they drafted Deion in the 2nd and Givens in the 7th. They kept Troy around.

Ok, let's look at what I said they'd do after this year. Add low level FAs. check. keep guys from this year. check. draft a receiver on day 1? they already did that last year, no need to do that again. Draft a guy after the 5th round? sure, why not.

Now let's get back to my good points which you completely ignored. Who are these #1 FA WRs the Pats should be going after? Fell free to respond with a list of names rather than some lame "there are some good guys out there" or other piece of subjective crap.

Should the patriots be offering $6M a year for these guys? there are lots of teams with lots of money out there this offseason. teams will have money to spend and the pats will have to at least compete with their offers. Derrick Mason would not come cheaply (or on short years) this year.

Do the Patriots like to avoid headcases? Well there goes guys like Moss, Owens, Porter, etc.

Do the patriots still value receivers less than other teams (part of this being that other teams tend to overvalue WRs)? Hmm, that seems like a barrier to an expensive pick-up which isn't changing.

Do the Patriots have more pressing needs in the draft? A few linebackers and defensive backs would sure look nice out of the draft. Maybe a fullback, or a new RB to replace Dillon or Faulk. You can always use more linemen. Oh, and trading picks for future picks might be a good idea.

Oh I forgot, you mentioned trades. Gotta love those football trades, they happen all the time. let's see, teams trade guys like moss because they're headcases. no thank you. they also trade marginal guys who are only providing depth (Andre Davis, Doug Gabriel). sure, they can trade for one of those. i wouldn't slot him in as a starter ahead of caldwell though. the other reason teams trade guys is simply to get value back, and since we've already established that the Patriots value WRs much less than other teams this doesn't seem a good fit.

JoeSixPat, reread this post again if need be. see what it contains (other than some vitriol)? It's called substance. presentation of ideas and logical conclusions. there's even some decent information in here. Now go ahead and reread your post. i see some condescension, there's some hyperbole, an irrelevant example (Mason), and some abuse of elipses and the dreaded "????." I don't see much of value in there. I'm looking for something constructive but just can't find it.

maybe this place would have been better if I were posting here in '01-'02 if your post is an example of what the site had to offer. Maybe I'd have raised the standards a little.

Let me explain this a little bit slower for you and with smaller words.

People who think we could use an additional WR or two next year, and who therefore think that its wise to let players compete for starting positions - rather than prematurely declare Caldwell a starter when we don't know who else will be on the team DO IN FACT follow this team.

Your entitled to your opinion but I'm usually quick to call out people who think they've got a monopoply on football wisdom. So you're off to a bad start right there.

Then, I made a subltle point that in ruling out free agency (which is premature) and the draft (which I'd tend to agree with you about) in finding a #1 and/or #2 WR you didn't even consider the possibility of a trade for a starter.

If you might recall we had a chance to trade for Javon Walker this off-season. Had he been here he might have offered Caldwell a tiny challenge as a #1 WR this season given our depth at that position. It does happen every now and then, but apparently you've ruled out this resource already.

Troy Brown is a perfect case study in why you should NOT let a single seasons numbers allow you to be complacent. Caldwell's numbers this year are good - but to declare him a starter and chide those who think we should bring in WRs to compete???? C'mon - have you followed the team? The front office was smart enough NOT to do that following Troy Brown's 100 RECEPTION years. They were even smart enough to try to bring in the BEST free agent in Derrick Mason when Deion Branch was here too.

WHY do you think the front office would suddenly do an about face and decide - especially with the dearth of a deep threat this season - that we're fine at WR?????

Do you actually follow this team?

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

If you might recall we had a chance to trade for Javon Walker this off-season. Had he been here he might have offered Caldwell a tiny challenge as a #1 WR this season given our depth at that position. It does happen every now and then, but apparently you've ruled out this resource already.

Troy Brown is a perfect case study in why you should NOT let a single seasons numbers allow you to be complacent. Caldwell's numbers this year are good - but to declare him a starter and chide those who think we should bring in WRs to compete???? C'mon - have you followed the team? The front office was smart enough NOT to do that following Troy Brown's 100 RECEPTION years. They were even smart enough to try to bring in the BEST free agent in Derrick Mason when Deion Branch was here too.

WHY do you think the front office would suddenly do an about face and decide - especially with the dearth of a deep threat this season - that we're fine at WR?????

Do you actually follow this team?

Ok, I've dropped the attitude. You've killed me with kindness.

Back to Walker. I also think he is a perfect example for my point. Why did the Patriots not come up with Walker? Because they did not value him as much as other teams. Green Bay required more than what the Patriots were willing to give for him, and Denver was willing to pay more than the Patriots. Unless this changes I cannot see the Patriots trading for a starting receiver, who would undoubtedly have value to either the team trading him or another team in the league, or both.

As for Mason, the Pats were willing to pay him more than other teams at the time. The times have changed though and other teams will be willing to throw more money at a thin crop of receivers. It is not that I think the Pats have changed, it's that I think the environment has.

I don't believe in handing a job to anybody before the season starts. I expect guys to come in to challenge Reche. What I don't see is how a lesser FA, a lesser trade acquisition, or a rookie is able to step in and overtake Reche, who will enter next year as Brady's preferred target.

This obviously changes if the Pats acquire a big-time WR, but I've already stated why I just can't see that happening.

*edit* Oh yeah, and it still needs to be mentioned. Who are these WRs available in free agency?

 

[DaBruinz]

He has exceeded much of our expectations for this year,Has Career highs in everything except TD's.With Troy most likely retiring(Much to my dissapointment) after this year.That leaves Caldwell,Watson,Gaffney,Jackson.Thats about it as far as WR's.I would love to see him back in the starting lineup....

Well, then you don't know much about the Patriots. Kight has been getting a LOT of playing time on run plays and running patterns. He's been open on a few occasions.

Bam Childress is another player that the Pats are very high on. They must be if they kepot him on the PS for 3 seasons.

Also, don't forget that Gaffney has less than half a season with the Pats and hasn't been through a Pats training camp yet. There is a good chance that he and Reche could press Jackson to step up and they could have a very stong top 3.

 

[DaBruinz]

Great? You are an easy marker. He had 6 catches for 25 yards yesterday. Great is top ten, Caldwell is not even in the top 41.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=rec&sort=yds&league=nfl&season=2&year=2006

He is an adequate replacement for Givens and could potentially be a very good #3 or an ok #2.

As a unit they are the worst in the NFL, if they come back with Caldwell - Jackson - Gaffney - Brown they will remain near the bottom. Jackson could develop into a nice #2 but they need someone who can be a #1 or a #1A. If Brown comes back and can be a #5 WR then that is fine, anything more than that is a clear indication of a poor WR unit.

I see stuff like this from fans and it infurriates me, but then makes me laugh and realize that there are times you just rely on stats too much and talk out your rear end.

How the hell do you know what Chad Jackson could develop into? Jackson could work all off-season with Brady and Daboll and bloom into a tremendous #1 WR weapon. Yet, you make it sound like the Pats will be LUCKY if Jackson becomes a nice #2 receiver.

 

[DaBruinz]

If the Pats start the 2007 season with Caldwell, Jackson, Brown and Gaffney

as their wide receivers, I would be extremely disappointed. It would mean

that the front office had wasted another chance to improve the team

during the off season. The Pats need a good wide receiver to be their

primary go to guy. They also need to draft another wide receiver early

on day #2 of the draft. In fact, they should draft a wide receiver every

year to avoid a repeat of the Branch, Givens fiasco.

Jimke -
So, in your infinite wisdon (*snicker*) you feel the the Patriots wasted a chance to improve the team this off-season? How did they WASTE the chance? Please, enlighten everyone. Or are you so hell bent on being ignorant regarding the Branch and Givens situations that you can't see beyond the end of your nose?

Lets remind you that the Branch situation was because BRANCH didn't want to re-sign with the Patriots and he strung them along. So, how is it that it was a fiasco? The Patriots got a 1st round pick out of it and you don't have a clue as to what Branch would have done had he actually come into camp like he said he would back in April. I think you also need to be reminded that BRANCH is the one who chose NOT to negotiate with the Patriots even though the Patriots were willing to pay him very well (at least a 5 year/$33 million extension) and treat him like Brady and Seymour.

Lets also remind you that the Patriots offered Givens a very lucrative deal (5 years/$20 million) and he got 5 years/$24 million. Givens chose the Titans because of the extra money AND because he felt he had the chance to be a #1 receiver there. Givens isn't talented enough to be a #1 receiver, no matter what HE thinks.

What the Pats NEED to do is what they believe is best for the short term and LONG TERM needs of this franchise. They do NOT need to be ignorant and short-sighted as you are suggesting.