Randy Moss unretired (merged)

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MaineMan

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
You stated it as a fact. We were discussing his play in 2010 and you stated that he was working through injuries that had slow him down for over a year.
Now you are saying the flaw in my comment that you are using an injury as an excuse when you do not have any evidence he was affected by an injury is that no one (including you) knows what his health was? You are agreeing with me that you are wrong to blame his poor play on the possibility of some hypothetical injury.

"... he'd ..." as in "he HAD been working through some injuries (since mid-2009) that HAD been slowing him down...."

I apologize if the phrasing was unclear, but "HAD", in my understanding of the English language, indicates PAST TENSE, not necessarily ongoing. And my statement (as a person without an emotional axe to grind against Moss would read it) is FACT.

I did not state that he was (as in, "still was") working through those injuries, OR that they had slowed him down for over a year. What I actually wrote does not contradict my subsequent statement that none of can know what his health status was during his time with the Titans or what is is now.

I did at no time "blame" his poor play in TEN on any hypothetical injury, nor was I ever even slightly "making excuses" for it. You are completely mis-representing what I wrote.

To be clear to all, I am not "pro-Moss" or (as you so obviously are) "anti-Moss". To list the possible factors in his poor performance in TEN, not as an "excuse", but as a dispassionate examination:

- his health (which no one really knows)
- his age
- his attitude (which we can't know for certain)
- the Titans own coaching and QB issues

Also, to be clear to all, I loathe arguments like this, but when I'm attacked personally and/or willfully mis-represented in a public forum, I will defend myself. However, something I loathe even more is having to spend the time to do so when there are so many other, more pleasant places to play.

Logging out now.
 

OhExaulted1

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I am extremely positive. I am excited that the Pats will upgrade the WR position this offseason with Wayne or Lloyd. Those are real upgrades.

You need to deal with the reality that Moss is far more likely to be a Jet next season than a Patriot. The Jets are looking for a low cost outside/deep threat. The Pats are likely to go with one of two players for that position - Brandon Lloyd or Reggie Wayne. The Jets are currently linked to the Moss sweepstakes while all indications show the Pats not currently interested.

I don't hate Moss. I just think it is clear the Pats have moved on and I seriously doubt he has much left. Why bring him back because he was a stud three or four seasons ago?

As long as they don't waste a draft pick on a WR. They've totally sucked at it and completely missed the boat for quite a # of years. For the love of God don't draft a WR. I'm begging you.
 
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Deus Irae

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club
PatsFans.com Supporter
As long as they don't waste a draft pick on a WR. They've totally sucked at it and completely missed the boat for quite a # of years. For the love of God don't draft a WR. I'm begging you.

Could you please list, say, 5 teams that you think are excellent at drafting WRs?
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Wall of Fame Member
"... he'd ..." as in "he HAD been working through some injuries (since mid-2009) that HAD been slowing him down...."

I apologize if the phrasing was unclear, but "HAD", in my understanding of the English language, indicates PAST TENSE, not necessarily ongoing. And my statement (as a person without an emotional axe to grind against Moss would read it) is FACT.
We are talking about the past. And it was in direct response to how he was playing in 2010. Why would I assume that you are talking about a previous injury that you realize has nothing to do with 2010 when the top was 2010 play?
Back in 2007 Brady wasnt as mobile as normal because he had been dealing with an ankle injury since an early round playoff game.
Perhaps understanding that your statement was unclear and clarifying would be a better than trying to create some flaw in me that isn't there.
I have absolutely zero axe to grind with Moss emotional or otherwise. Feel free to document any comments I have made that aren't directly related to what he did on the football field.

I did not state that he was (as in, "still was") working through those injuries, OR that they had slowed him down for over a year. What I actually wrote does not contradict my subsequent statement that none of can know what his health status was during his time with the Titans or what is is now.
If you weren't using it to excuse, or explain 2010, then why bring it up in response to a direct statement about 2010 production in Tenn. You basically said Yeah, but, he had been dealing with an injury since 2009.

I did at no time "blame" his poor play in TEN on any hypothetical injury, nor was I ever even slightly "making excuses" for it. You are completely mis-representing what I wrote.
Your response to his poor 2010 in Tenn was to bring up an injury. Use whatever semantics you want, I choose excuse, you may choose factor, explanation, reason, etc but its still the same thing.
Once again if it wasn't being used to temper his performance in Tenn why did you bring it up directly in response to it?

To be clear to all, I am not "pro-Moss" or (as you so obviously are) "anti-Moss". To list the possible factors in his poor performance in TEN, not as an "excuse", but as a dispassionate examination:
I am not anti Moss in the least, unless you think that concliuding his skills have eroded qualifies as 'anti'. I like the guy. I loved the player when he could play, I have no use for the player now that he can't.

- his health (which no one really knows)
- his age
- his attitude (which we can't know for certain)
- the Titans own coaching and QB issues

This is what I mean by making excuses. For the sfirst time you added age, which I assume indicates erosion of skill. He went out on the field to play, and was totally horrendous. Without adding age/decline you are grasping at fabricated reasons to avoid the obcious fact that his skills eroded.


Also, to be clear to all, I loathe arguments like this, but when I'm attacked personally and/or willfully mis-represented in a public forum, I will defend myself. However, something I loathe even more is having to spend the time to do so when there are so many other, more pleasant places to play.
You weren't attacked. You responded to his play in Tenn with a bunch of factors other than his play and ability.
Somehow that upset you, but it wasn't an attack. I will note that you were the first (and only) of us to reduce it to personal slurs.
I have simply responded with my feelings on your opinion, you have, numerous times now, tried to slam ME rather than respond to my viewpoint, so if you loathe 'these kind of arguments' avoiding that is a good first step.
 

LWK

Rookie
been following this board since -07 when Moss became a patriot and the dudes who were hating on him then are hating on him now, mo,andy,robo... if hes so done, then why dont yall be done posting in his threads..get over him, every moss thread i c on here, its always yall posting in em that hes so done, hes a cancer.. Moss is one of the greatest nfl players ever..period

i c ppl post on the net that he wasted his talent blah blah blah, how is being second in tds for wr in nfl history wasting ur talent.. if moss had hof qbs throwing the ball for the 1st 7 years, wed be calling randy the goat wr..simple as that

here some myth busting videos about moss, im sure the haters will love em

The Randy Moss Myth-Busting Career Defining Video Pt 1 "I Play When I Want To Play." - YouTube

The Randy Moss Myth-Busting Career Defining Video Pt 2 "No Strength; Can't Beat Physical Corners." - YouTube

The Randy Moss Myth-Busting Career Defining Video Pt 3 "Not A Good Rout Runner/Can Only Go Deep." - YouTube

The Randy Moss Myth-Busting Career Defining Video Pt 4 "He Can't/Won't Block." - YouTube
 
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PatsWickedPissah

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
been following this board since -07 when Moss became a patriot and the dudes who were hating on him then are hating on him now, mo,andy,robo... if hes so done, then why dont yall be done posting in his threads..get over him, every moss thread i c on here, its always yall posting in em that hes so done, hes a cancer.. Moss is one of the greatest nfl players ever..period

i c ppl post on the net that he wasted his talent blah blah blah, how is being second in tds for wr in nfl history wasting ur talent.. if moss had hof qbs throwing the ball for the 1st 7 years, wed be calling randy the goat wr..simple as that

here some myth busting videos about moss, im sure the haters will love em

The Randy Moss Myth-Busting Career Defining Video Pt 1 "I Play When I Want To Play." - YouTube

The Randy Moss Myth-Busting Career Defining Video Pt 2 "No Strength; Can't Beat Physical Corners." - YouTube

The Randy Moss Myth-Busting Career Defining Video Pt 3 "Not A Good Rout Runner/Can Only Go Deep." - YouTube

The Randy Moss Myth-Busting Career Defining Video Pt 4 "He Can't/Won't Block." - YouTube

Welcome to the board Mrs Moss!
 
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Ring 6

PatsFans.com Wall of Fame Member
been following this board since -07 when Moss became a patriot and the dudes who were hating on him then are hating on him now, mo,andy,robo...
You are lying. But see this board has a nice search feature so you can go back and actually find the posts where I 'hated on Moss'. Problem is they don't exist, so you should man up and admit you are lying.


if hes so done, then why dont yall be done posting in his threads..get over him, every moss thread i c on here, its always yall posting in em that hes so done, hes a cancer.. Moss is one of the greatest nfl players ever..period
Read much? Who is saying he is a cancer? Who is denying how good he was?
The discussion is that he is done. Some people want to ignore the evidence which is why there is a discussion.

i c ppl post on the net that he wasted his talent blah blah blah, how is being second in tds for wr in nfl history wasting ur talent.. if moss had hof qbs throwing the ball for the 1st 7 years, wed be calling randy the goat wr..simple as that

here some myth busting videos about moss, im sure the haters will love em

The Randy Moss Myth-Busting Career Defining Video Pt 1 "I Play When I Want To Play." - YouTube

The Randy Moss Myth-Busting Career Defining Video Pt 2 "No Strength; Can't Beat Physical Corners." - YouTube

The Randy Moss Myth-Busting Career Defining Video Pt 3 "Not A Good Rout Runner/Can Only Go Deep." - YouTube

The Randy Moss Myth-Busting Career Defining Video Pt 4 "He Can't/Won't Block." - YouTube
No one is making any argument about his ability when he was in his prime.
Should we post a bunch of highlight clips of Jim Brown as proof we should sign him now as our new RB?
 

OhExaulted1

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
I know Givens was a steal and Branch has been solid, but Bethel (who was a spectacular KR at times but a head case) C. Jackson, T. Price, B. Tate, PK Sam all were epic fails. Edelman and Slater are good ST guys but otherwise it's been junk.
 

LWK

Rookie
You are lying. But see this board has a nice search feature so you can go back and actually find the posts where I 'hated on Moss'. Problem is they don't exist, so you should man up and admit you are lying.



Read much? Who is saying he is a cancer? Who is denying how good he was?
The discussion is that he is done. Some people want to ignore the evidence which is why there is a discussion.


No one is making any argument about his ability when he was in his prime.
Should we post a bunch of highlight clips of Jim Brown as proof we should sign him now as our new RB?

ur saying hes done, why dont u wait till the end of this coming up nfl season 2 say that.. i have no doubt moss can still go out and get 8-10 tds this coming season, and if it turns out that hes done then hes done.. hes had a great career and is a lock for the hof... some of the media and ppl on the net just love to spit on everything that Moss has accomplished as an nfl player
 

Sivy

In the Starting Line-Up
ur saying hes done, why dont u wait till the end of this coming up nfl season 2 say that.. i have no doubt moss can still go out and get 8-10 tds this coming season, and if it turns out that hes done then hes done.. hes had a great career and is a lock for the hof... some of the media and ppl on the net just love to spit on everything that Moss has accomplished as an nfl player

This guy is correct
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Wall of Fame Member
ur saying hes done, why dont u wait till the end of this coming up nfl season 2 say that.. i have no doubt moss can still go out and get 8-10 tds this coming season, and if it turns out that hes done then hes done.. hes had a great career and is a lock for the hof... some of the media and ppl on the net just love to spit on everything that Moss has accomplished as an nfl player

1) Where is the admission you were lying when you said I trashed Moss in 2007?
2) I am stating my opinion NOW. What is the point of a message board if the answer to every opinion is wait until next year to give one?
3) Why are you directing what 'some of the media and ppl on the net' are saying about a different topic regarding Moss at me?
 

Deus Irae

PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club
PatsFans.com Supporter
I know Givens was a steal and Branch has been solid, but Bethel (who was a spectacular KR at times but a head case) C. Jackson, T. Price, B. Tate, PK Sam all were epic fails. Edelman and Slater are good ST guys but otherwise it's been junk.

Branch and Givens were major hits, and the Patriots haven't drafted many receivers, so people overrate the "bad" level of the Patriots at the position. If you want to see a pretty good example of a truly bad period of drafting at the WR position, take a look at Jacksonville for its entire history:

2011 4 17 114 Cecil Shorts Mount Union
2009 4 7 107 Mike Thomas Arizona
2009 5 8 144 Jarett Dillard Rice
2009 7 44 253 Tiquan Underwood Rutgers
2007 3 15 79 Mike Walker Central Florida
2007 7 19 229 John Broussard San Jose State
2005 1 21 21 Matt Jones Arkansas
2005 6 11 185 Chad Owens Hawaii
2004 1 9 9 Reggie Williams Washington
2004 4 24 120 Ernest Wilford Virginia Tech
2002 7 11 222 Kendall Newson Middle Tennessee State
2001 7 35 235 Richmond Flowers Chattanooga
2000 1 29 29 R. Jay Soward USC
2000 6 30 196 Emanuel Smith Arkansas
1998 7 3 192 Alvis Whitted North Carolina State
1996 4 15 110 Reggie Barlow Alabama State
1996 6 18 185 Chris Doering Florida
1996 7 18 227 Clarence Jones Tennessee State
1996 7 19 228 Gregory Spann Jackson State
1995 7 11 219 Curtis Marsh Utah

DraftHistory.com

By contrast, the Patriots

2010 3 26 90 Taylor Price Ohio
2009 3 19 83 Brandon Tate North Carolina
2008 5 18 153 Matt Slater UCLA
2006 2 4 36 Chad Jackson Florida
2004 5 32 164 P.K. Sam Florida State
2003 2 13 45 Bethel Johnson Texas A&M
2002 2 33 65 Deion Branch Louisville
2002 7 33 244 David Givens Notre Dame
1999 7 35 241 Sean Morey Brown

Have been alright, though certainly not spectacular. People are talking about a "long line..." based upon 4 players over the course of 8 years (Nobody sane looked at Slater as anything but an ST guy, and nobody sane looked at Sam as anything but a house money kind of gamble). That's certainly nothing to write home about, and it's an issue, but it's not anything definitive, as going back just one more year, to 2002, demonstrates.
 
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Ring 6

PatsFans.com Wall of Fame Member
I know Givens was a steal and Branch has been solid, but Bethel (who was a spectacular KR at times but a head case) C. Jackson, T. Price, B. Tate, PK Sam all were epic fails. Edelman and Slater are good ST guys but otherwise it's been junk.

PK Sam was the 164th pick in the draft. If there is a 10% chance of a WR at 164 making any real impact I'd be shocked.
Edelman was a 7th round pick. Lasting 3 years makes the pick a good one.
Slater was not picked to be a WR. In fact he initially played defense in addition to his real role as a special teamer. Its incredulous to consider him a WR draft pick.
Spending 2 2s and 2 3s and getting what we got is not something to jump up and down about but its far from the nightmare you make it out to be.
 

OhExaulted1

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
Branch and Givens were major hits, and the Patriots haven't drafted many receivers, so people overrate the "bad" level of the Patriots at the position. If you want to see a pretty good example of a truly bad period of drafting at the WR position, take a look at Jacksonville for its entire history:



DraftHistory.com

By contrast, the Patriots



Have been alright, though certainly not spectacular. People are talking about a "long line..." based upon 4 players over the course of 8 years (Nobody sane looked at Slater as anything but an ST guy, and nobody sane looked at Sam as anything but a house money kind of gamble). That's certainly nothing to write home about, and it's an issue, but it's not anything definitive, as going back just one more year, to 2002, demonstrates.

Informative. Nice research. I give you kudo's. All I was saying is the track record hasn't been great. If we were to include TE's weve hit a couple HR's. It's just WR's can be such prima-dona self absorbed head-cases. It's kind of a buyer-be-ware type of market. That's all I'm trying to express.
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Wall of Fame Member
Informative. Nice research. I give you kudo's. All I was saying is the track record hasn't been great. If we were to include TE's weve hit a couple HR's. It's just WR's can be such prima-dona self absorbed head-cases. It's kind of a buyer-be-ware type of market. That's all I'm trying to express.

You could actually support the argument that the 'flaw' is not drafting enough WRs, not drafting them early enough and the track record is marred by not using any 1sts on WRs.
 

OhExaulted1

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
You could actually support the argument that the 'flaw' is not drafting enough WRs, not drafting them early enough and the track record is marred by not using any 1sts on WRs.
Indeed that is a true statement, but it's not an argument. I'm a diehard fan. I only wish the best for my guys. It's taken me over a week to recover and thankfully the wife stopped me from throwing the TV out the window on the day that shall not be mentioned.
 
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