PFT: Matt Patricia to call plays on offense?

[venecol]

There is a difference between concern and irrational fear. Some here are doing the latter.

Who would you rather see as defacto OC: Fat Matt or Judge?

 

[203Pat]

There is a difference between concern and irrational fear. Some here are doing the latter.

In your view what crosses from concern to irrational fear?

 

[Rob0729]

Who would you rather see as defacto OC: Fat Matt or Judge?

I don't know. I would assume Patricia, but Belichick would know their skill sets and offensive knowledge more than I do.

Ideally, I would want an OC with experience and knowledge of the Patriots' system. But that isn't an option we have.

But I just don't think Patricia calling the plays is as much of a disaster as many thiink it is and I think being a coach with two decades worth of experience probably gives him far more knowledge of offensive play calling than people give him credit for. Again, he has far more experience than McDaniels had when he took over the play calling in 2005.

 

[Rob0729]

In your view what crosses from concern to irrational fear?

When you talk about Patricia being clueless on how to run an offense or how offensive play calling works. The guy has two decades plus of experience as a coach and was a head coach. I find him as a more qualified option than a guy like McDaniels was in 2005 with only two years of offensive coaching experience and only three or four more years of coaching experience at all. And again, I don't mean he is better. Just more qualified.

 

[203Pat]

When you talk about Patricia being clueless on how to run an offense or how offensive play calling works. The guy has two decades plus of experience as a coach and was a head coach. I find him as a more qualified option than a guy like McDaniels was in 2005 with only two years of offensive coaching experience and only three or four more years of coaching experience at all. And again, I don't mean he is better. Just more qualified.

I don't think Patricia is clueless but I think there is a steep learning curve from spending years on the defensive side of the ball to offensive play calling. Honestly at this point I just hope there is one voice and not multiple as far as the offensive coordinator role. I know last year there was some talk of mixed messages coming from Mayo and Steve Belichick from some of the offensive players. I got the feeling that the mystery around the DC spot the last year or so isn't completely limited to just the fans.

 

[All3Phases]

But what you are describing has to do more with McDaniels. But they did simplify the offense with Newton and Jones under McDaniels. They didn't change terminology, but they clearly didn't use the entire playbook. They ran a limited number of plays for Newton. And with Jones, you saw it quite a bit in the red zone where they got ultra conservative. It is just a different way to simplify things than what we are assuming is going on now.

ts right, thats why this is different....which is my point. This is a complete overhaul to what was existing to the offensive playbook in terms of verbiage, terminology, etc. Not using/branching off the existing playbook if you get what I mean. Lets put it this way, in your opinion, if Josh was still the OC here, is this type of altering to the playbook happening?

 

[Rob0729]

I don't think Patricia is clueless but I think there is a steep learning curve from spending years on the defensive side of the ball to offensive play calling. Honestly at this point I just hope there is one voice and not multiple as far as the offensive coordinator role. I know last year there was some talk of mixed messages coming from Mayo and Steve Belichick from some of the offensive players. I got the feeling that the mystery around the DC spot the last year or so isn't completely limited to just the fans.

I think you are overstating the learning curve for someone with as much experience as Patricia. Again, I will throw out the disclaimer that he could suck at it no matter how much experience he has. But he has studied thousands of hours of offensive game film watching what offensive plays work or don't work in hundreds and thousands of situations. He may be expert on offensive play calling.

We have seen cases of players from teams coached by coaches who were either former DCs (Flores, Mangini) or defensive players (Vrabel) who knew the Patriots offensive plays because they knew what the Pats called in certain situations. So we have evidence that being a DC with the Pats makes you an expert in at least certain offensive play calling by the Patriots.

 

[Rob0729]

ts right, thats why this is different....which is my point. This is a complete overhaul to what was existing to the offensive playbook in terms of verbiage, terminology, etc. Not using/branching off the existing playbook if you get what I mean. Lets put it this way, in your opinion, if Josh was still the OC here, is this type of altering to the playbook happening?

I doubt Josh would change his terminology, but that has to do more with Josh than anything else. He has a proven system and probably unlikely to change it. He might revise it to adapt to the weapons he has, but he is unlikely to do wholesale changes under any circumstances. I am sure he changed the entire terminology in Las Vegas from what it was last year.

The question is would O'Brien, Gase, or any other established OC who might have come in this offseason would have done wholesale changes? I think they would as long as their preferred system isn't identical to McDaniels and Belichick let them make the overhaul. Ideally, anyone who takes over the play calling role wants to do their own system and not just calling the last guy's system.

 

[All3Phases]

I doubt Josh would change his terminology, but that has to do more with Josh than anything else. He has a proven system and probably unlikely to change it. He might revise it to adapt to the weapons he has, but he is unlikely to do wholesale changes under any circumstances. I am sure he changed the entire terminology in Las Vegas from what it was last year.

The question is would O'Brien, Gase, or any other established OC who might have come in this offseason would have done wholesale changes? I think they would as long as their preferred system isn't identical to McDaniels and Belichick let them make the overhaul. Ideally, anyone who takes over the play calling role wants to do their own system and not just calling the last guy's system.

I think the system has been largely the same over 2 decades, its just evolved and added on, which is what BB was talking about in his Press conference yesterday. I dont think Josh came in here and threw out everything Weiss had in the playbook, and thats not what I am arguing. If Josh was still here, does this type of effort to simplify and streamline things in the playbook take place? Probably not is my opinion.

To your point, If they signed somebody else from outside the system, would that need to be done as well? Who knows, I dont think theyd ever do that, and they rarely have. I think it very much has to do with 3 parties, (Mac, Judge, Patricia) all not having mastered all parts of the playbook. So theyre simplifying it so theyre all on the same page/at the same level.

 

[captain stone]

I don't know if I buy your reasoning for the change. We do not actually know if the play calling has been simplified or, if it has, why. It really could just that Judge and Patricia want to put their stamp on the plays. Or they find that the McDaniels system isn't a good fit for a Mac Jones led team and it was more for Brady and his strengths. Or they could actually be simplifying it, but it could be because the receiver struggle reading defense and knowing how to make the adjustments based on the coverage.

I will tell you this that Meyers and Agholor struggled running rub routes last year and many times they took themselves out of the play rather than the defender. That could be the reason for the change. The McDaniels defense was so much about rub routes and natural picks. For all we know, that could be the reason for the change.

The Charlie Weis-Brady-McD-BOB offense was tailor-made for a Mac Jones-led team... Mac just didn't have the benefit of watching & learning during his rookie season like Brady did... We now gotta hope that his version of Troy Brown - David Patten - Kevin Faulk (a healthy James White?) emerges from the crowd... and that his OL gives him the time to find them...

 

[Rob0729]

The Charlie Weis-Brady-McD-BOB offense was tailor-made for a Mac Jones-led team... Mac just didn't have the benefit of watching & learning during his rookie season like Brady did... We now gotta hope that his version of Troy Brown - David Patten - Kevin Faulk (a healthy James White?) emerges from the crowd... and that his OL gives him the time to find them...

I was just throwing hypotheticals out there. We do not know why they changed the terninology.

 

[venecol]

Bill is always saying he does what's best for the team. This is a team, with a lot of new O players, that lacked the explosiveness the modern NFL offenses are now known for. What would've been best for the team was to bring the best available offensive coach from the NFL or college ranks to make it more explosive. Instead, Bill brings in his buddy, a defensive coach, to run the offense in a critical year for his young franchise QB. I think there's reason for concern.

 

[jlu52]

I understand your concern, but there's no one out there, maybe anywhere today, more knowledgeable on both sides of the ball, than the head coach. He is either imparting, and guys that have been with him a long time are retaining, or you may be right. Even including valid criticisms of Belichick, he's been a brilliant coach. He is extremely influential in Tom Brady being the goat. They spent thousands of hours together studying the game. Belichick may in fact lose his edge someday, we all do. I still think he has plenty in the tank, still

 

[patfanken]

That’s fine, and may be true. I think the common denominator in all the defenses was Bill being heavily involved, would you agree?

That's not all together true. After Raybine died Tom's QB coach for the next 3 years was none other than Bill Bellichick! How'd that work out.

I don't understand WHY people seem to think that working on the offense or defense are totally different things. You CANNOT be a DC without an INTIMATE knowledge of offense Can't happen. How many years did Dante play OL, yet he was deemed my many the best OL coach who ever coached in the league.

MP was a fine DC, not perfect, but no one is. Otherwise shut outs would be the norm, instead of being an defensive genius if you can hold a team under 25. And for all you guys who just demand an attacking D and get pissed off at any bend but not breaks strategies, remember this. If attacking D's were perfect, ALL teams would be running them ALL the time....and of course we know they don't.

Plus there is another point. Calling the play is just the BEGINNING of what happens next. That play may never happen if the QB sees something on the defense that makes him go to plan B or C or D. Same goes for the defensive call. It could become meaningless if the offense comes out in a certain motion or formation or personnel grouping. I wonder just what percentage of the calls that come from the coaches are the ones that are actually executed on the field. I think the number would be higher than one thinks, especially on D.

I fully expect the Pats to use much more zones this year, unless or until someone like Jack Jones (btw-has any team had as many Jones' on their team in league history) turns into a stud or Malcolm can return to his glory days. It will be frustrating for us at times, but it CAN be a very effective strategy.

Finally I'm getting a little tired of posters who feel that calling Patricia "fat mat" or other mean terms. STOP it. It only demeans you. It's like you were the 3rd grade bully and by the 7th grade everyone was bigger than you and you had no one left to bully.. If you have a criticism of a player or coach just state it. IF you still feel the need to belittle people anonymously then you are the one who comes across as being just sad.

 

[Kasmir]

Finally I'm getting a little tired of posters who feel that calling Patricia "fat mat" or other mean terms. STOP it. It only demeans you. It's like you were the 3rd grade bully and by the 7th grade everyone was bigger than you and you had no one left to bully.. If you have a criticism of a player or coach just state it. IF you still feel the need to belittle people anonymously then you are the one who comes across as being just sad.

Completely agree. One poster even combined the fat shaming with anti-Italian innuendo. No place for that here, should result in a warning and a suspension if it continues.

 

[venecol]

I understand your concern, but there's no one out there, maybe anywhere today, more knowledgeable on both sides of the ball, than the head coach. He is either imparting, and guys that have been with him a long time are retaining, or you may be right. Even including valid criticisms of Belichick, he's been a brilliant coach. He is extremely influential in Tom Brady being the goat. They spent thousands of hours together studying the game. Belichick may in fact lose his edge someday, we all do. I still think he has plenty in the tank, still

I agree with everything you said but the team has hardly impressed on the O side of the ball since 2018, despite having the Goat HC. Something has to change and maybe now it is, which is encouraging. I just wish we would've brought in a QB whisperer or a creative OC to make team more explosive. Of course, you have to also have the talent, which is a whole other debate (i.e. GM).

 

[SHOWTIME15]

That's not all together true. After Raybine died Tom's QB coach for the next 3 years was none other than Bill Bellichick! How'd that work out.

MP was a fine DC, not perfect, but no one is. Otherwise shut outs would be the norm, instead of being an defensive genius if you can hold a team under 25. And for all you guys who just demand an attacking D and get pissed off at any bend but not breaks strategies, remember this. If attacking D's were perfect, ALL teams would be running them ALL the time....and of course we know they don't.

Pretty sure it was John Hufnagel who was our QBs coach after Rehbein passed away.

As far as Patricia, should he get the credit for the 2016 defense or was it Belichick? My money is on Bill, especially considering Patricia's record in Detroit.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree with everything you said but the team has hardly impressed on the O side of the ball since 2018, despite having the Goat HC. Something has to change and maybe now it is, which is encouraging. I just wish we would've brought in a QB whisperer or a creative OC to make team more explosive. Of course, you have to also have the talent, which is a whole other debate (i.e. GM).

The offense was one of the best in the league in the 1st half of 2019, then Brady got injured and the WRs disappeared.
The offense was hopeless in 2020 with a rb at qb
The offense was 6th in the NFL in scoring with a rookie Qb in 2021.
What team have you been watching?

 

[patfanken]

I agree with everything you said but the team has hardly impressed on the O side of the ball since 2018, despite having the Goat HC. Something has to change and maybe now it is, which is encouraging. I just wish we would've brought in a QB whisperer or a creative OC to make team more explosive. Of course, you have to also have the talent, which is a whole other debate (i.e. GM).

Like I said before, the Pats already have a great QB whisperer in BB, You know in an ideal world OBrien would come here and this wouldn't be an issue. But it didn't happen for whatever reasons and we have to move on. Maybe there MIGHT have been some younger coach who could have fit the bill with more experience, BUT what about the amount of time it would have taken to not only learn the Pat's system, BUT the LANGUAGE as well. Semantics plays such a critical role in how smooth an operation becomes. It shouldn't be underestimated as a factor.

BOTTOM LINE: We can always make cases both pro and con for this seemingly strange off season in the coaching room. But in the end the proof will be in the pudding. If the Pats look sloppy and disjointed in their offensive execution next year then all the haters can say I told you so to guys like me. And if they DO look better than they were last year..... I will desperately try and NOT say "I told you so"

As a closing thought that just occurred to me. When I was in HS, we had just 2 coaches coaching our varsity team, 2 for the JV's and 2 for the freshman. When I started coaching in HS in the 70's we had 4 for the varsity and my first year as a HC we had a staff of 5. Now Bill has been notorious for having one of the smallest coaching staffs in the league if not THE smallest. On one site I looked at the Pats have 6 offensive coaches, 6 on D, 2 on ST's and 2 "Quality control" assistants. So that's 16 not counting 2 strength and conditioning guys. You get the picture. With 16 guys PLUS Bill plus whatever other "interns and QC" coaches they have running around. The Pats have MORE than enough guys to give every player a lot of personal attention.

So I judge coaching on just how good they are in COMMUNICATING the message they want to get across in what ever individual, group or team drill they have. As a player, they don't give a f$ck about the fact that Steve's highest football accomplishment was a walk on long snapper. OR that Jerad was an NFL All Pro. All THEY really care about is are my coaches helping me to be a better player and putting me in a position to make plays. There are no secret drills, Every drill for every position are written down somewhere no mystery there. So what makes a coach stand out is simple. Are they good communicators or not? Patricia and Judge have proven that in the past they HAVE been good communicators. The fact they are now coaching other positions isn't a bigger factor for me as it might be for others.

 

[Ring 6]

Pretty sure it was John Hufnagel who was our QBs coach after Rehbein passed away.

As far as Patricia, should he get the credit for the 2016 defense or was it Belichick? My money is on Bill, especially considering Patricia's record in Detroit.

No Hufnagel was only here in 2003.
If you had paid attention at the time it was well publicized that belichick was personally coaching Brady.

Everyone who contributes to success gets credit. Because success is a result and arbitrarily assigned credit is blind conjecture.