Game Day Thread Pats vs Panthers: Preseason Game 3 GDT

[PP2]

I may be the person on Patsfans.com who was most in favor of the Dorsett trade, and I'm certainly hoping that he makes the team and gets a real chance to show what he can do with Brady throwing him the ball. However, the idea that Dorsett has proven himself beyond a doubt is not one that I buy.

I loved the trade too and I personally believe it's paying off now. Last night he had 4 catches. He had 12 catches all of last season. What I'm high on is that two of the routes he ran last night (IIRC) were timed routes, where Brady throws the ball to a spot he expects the receiver to be (and Dorsett was there), and one of them was that 4th down completion where they had Edelman run a dummy route away on the other side to pull the defense off.

 

[ashley]

Hi Dabruinz,

I think with cb and safety, there is a big drop off between the starters and reserves.... We're OK, with starters, but if someone goes down, we are in big, big trouble... Especially at safety and somehow Richards makes the team.

Ashley -
Not sure how you have Safety and CB as depth concerns..

Safety they are 3 deep with starting quality players in Harmon, D-Mac, and Chung. It's only after that they have an questions. What team is 4 deep at safety?

Coreners - This was a question this year with Butler being gone and J. Jones coming back from injury. C. Jones looked good last year at CB before he got hurt. From all accounts, he didn't look out of place last night. J. Jones seems to be doing well, which is good for us. He was our best Slot Corner last year and we really missed him more than Butler in the SB imho.

The question to ask yourself is how many teams are 4+ deep at CB across the league. Most teams would be in trouble losing their top CB.. So I see the Patriots in that position.

I do agree with you about WR and QB. But most teams would be in trouble if they lost their top QB..

 

[Oswlek]

Whether that was a true indication of the depth chart, or a "Let's see if Davis can play" type of deal remains to be seen.

I think we can it for granted that this was just giving some backups time with the 1s to see what they can do when surrounded by better players.

Decker is miles away from contributing. MILES away. No time with the 1's, and mixed results against the 2's and 3's

Decker is not good enough to make this team even with all the issues at WR.

 

[Sfpat]

I mean they huddled up for it which means one ref said it wasn't a flag which i'm sure Torbert came in saying he saw it, which ends the discussion.

I get it's a preseason game but what an absolute ****ing horseshit call, that and the Waddle one, so no one saw the dipshit jump into Waddle's face 1 second before he pushed the guy away? ********. They see a phantom PI on McCourty when the guy tripped on his own feet but they don't see a guy jumping in the face 2 feet from where the ball carrier went down. Absolute joke

Not counting the blatant OPI on Carolina's 1st third down nor the missed facemask on Gillesees' first run as he went OB

 

[Brick27]

Couple thoughts..

- Zero sacks allowed by the Pats OL last night. If the Pats defense is going to get scrutinized for not getting any sacks, can the Pats OL atleast get a little bit of credit for not allowing any?
- Preseason or not, it’s good to see visible progress from week to week for Dorsett/Patterson. In the case of Patterson, it seems like opposing defenses might battle with perception vs. reality in how they account for him. Even if the reality of his role is more limited, the perception by defenses could lead to overcompensating. In turn, this could obviously lead to weaknesses when covering other guys/parts of the field. Ex) Do you put your bigger/physical corner or a box safety on him to prevent having Patterson bully them over after the catch?..go for it..but good luck doing that only to have Gronk match up out wide on some smaller pipsqueek on the other side of the field.
- Great to see Bentley continue to look the part. Can’t always rely on or expect immediate help from rookies, but it’s a nice surprise when you can get it. There still look to be questions in terms of LB depth, but it looks like Bentley might be more than just merely a run stopping LB as he’s been billed. He’s looked good working sideline to sideline, and might be able to handle more responsibilities than initially thought. Again though..it’s still very early to conclude anything.

 

[Hyped]

Comments:

- Just finished watching the NFL Network's replay on the DVR. Also, did not read this entire thread...might do that later...wanted to drop my thoughts while fresh in my mind.

- Cyrus Jones was a mixed bag, IMO. The good...he did not muff any kick offs or punts...and at least two of them bounced off the grass first. Great concentration. As a slot corner he was OK OK...there was a long over thrown pass attempted at him in the EZ...if the QB put the ball inside I think Jones gets beat for a TD there. Also, late in the 3rd...Jones gave up a 3rd down. Otherwise, his coverage was good...always step-with-step. Another thing I noticed is that he has trouble shedding blocks and is often caught inside by blockers. In one instance, he missed a tackle when the RB shook him off.

- Decker...not sure he has lost a step yet. On one pass by Hoyer that went out of bounds...Decker was WIDE OPEN and had 2-3 steps on his man. Then again he let a pass over the middle go through his hands late in the 4th.

- The OL needs to do a better job. Kwann Short was destroying things in the middle.

- DL...Shelton was getting destroyed here and there in the middle. Looks like Shelton is not that good at keeping OL-men walled off when moving laterally? He kept getting knocked over sideways and taking himself out of plays in the 1st quarter.

- Grigsby was all around the ball on ST's....I think I might put him on the 53 now ahead of M.Flowers..or maybe B.King...not sure.

- Happy to see Dorsett making plays and using his speed. I am starting to think that we will actually only carry 5 WR's on the initial 53 man...INCLUDING Slater. I have it as: Hogan, Dorsett, Patterson, Slater, and one more WR... maybe we even try getting by with only 4 WR's and heavy usage of White, Hollister, and Burkhead?

- Hope Jeremy Hill is OK.

- I don't think Jason McCourty is making it....

- On one PR...I saw Patterson back deep...but the ball went to McCarron for a fair catch. Could be a wrinkle...two PR's and a lateral pass or something.

- Patterson will be effective if he can run freely cross the middle of field like that. And man...Patterson is a freak of nature...he is our biggest WR and almost built like a TE...but has insane speed....interesting combo.

- BTW, Harmon has been donning #21 all camp....wonder why? Was that his Rutgers number?

- And what's up with the NFL's discipline for Harmon's little "failed smuggling event" earlier this year? Will the NFL look into it? Or can they even with this being an International incident? Or was Harmon only placed in the increased drug testing program?

- That PI on D.McCourty on the first drive was a weak call, IMO.

- Waddle blew it on another drive.

- Overall, it was not as bad as I thought when I read BB's comments this AM.

 

[supafly]

Don't see how Pleasant can still be in competition with basically sitting out game 3 (both D and ST)..

Thanks. Haven’t seen game 3 yet, since I was forced to DVR it on NFLN and it aired early this morning. That sucks.

 

[goheels22002]

So where is this new aggressive scheme with Flores making all of the decisions on defense?
If I am supppsed to believe that last week signaled a philosophical change and what defense we play is up to Flores and he is going to be really aggressive, what am I supposed to think about last night?
I mean Hightower said......
@PP2 can you help me out here?

I think it is a change. It looks like they're adjusting to how the Eagles read the linebackers and picked them apart with with run-pass option in the Super Bowl. This group of versatile LB/DEs mix and match making it harder to pre-snap read who is coming and who is in coverage. They came hard less often last night than against the Eagles because they wanted to hold the edge to contain Newton.

AJ, it's not just the one game. It's what they were doing at camp too. When I was there, all kinds of combos were playing with the so-called first team. Mixing and matching fast young LBs and DEs with the DTs was what I focused on. Last night was more of the same. I liked that he put Harmon or Jason McCourty in the box a few times on mid-to long-yardage downs - sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. But what I saw was a mix of packages to see how they covered zones or filled gaps, and how they communicated.

It was painfully obvious that they didn't game plan for the Panthers. The slot guy ran wild which they would usually take away in a heartbeat, and Olsen pretty much had free rein to wander at the second level. I was encouraged at the goal line on the first two drives holding the Panthers and their enormous line out of the end zone. The big guys held their ground and the LB/S hit their gaps.

I particularly like what Adrian Clayborn, Dietrich Wise, and JaWhaun Bentley are bringing to the D in different combos with Hightower and Van Noy. I'd love to see Trey Flowers at full speed with these guys. Roberts and Grissom have always been aggressive to the ball. I think the odd men out among the DE/LB corps are Sam and Harris. King is a special teamer.

 

[Ring 6]

I think it is a change. It looks like they're adjusting to how the Eagles read the linebackers and picked them apart with with run-pass option in the Super Bowl. This group of versatile LB/DEs mix and match making it harder to pre-snap read who is coming and who is in coverage. They came hard less often last night than against the Eagles because they wanted to hold the edge to contain Newton.

AJ, it's not just the one game. It's what they were doing at camp too. When I was there, all kinds of combos were playing with the so-called first team. Mixing and matching fast young LBs and DEs with the DTs was what I focused on. Last night was more of the same. I liked that he put Harmon or Jason McCourty in the box a few times on mid-to long-yardage downs - sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. But what I saw was a mix of packages to see how they covered zones or filled gaps, and how they communicated.

It was painfully obvious that they didn't game plan for the Panthers. The slot guy ran wild which they would usually take away in a heartbeat, and Olsen pretty much had free rein to wander at the second level. I was encouraged at the goal line on the first two drives holding the Panthers and their enormous line out of the end zone. The big guys held their ground and the LB/S hit their gaps.

I particularly like what Adrian Clayborn, Dietrich Wise, and JaWhaun Bentley are bringing to the D in different combos with Hightower and Van Noy. I'd love to see Trey Flowers at full speed with these guys. Roberts and Grissom have always been aggressive to the ball. I think the odd men out among the DE/LB corps are Sam and Harris. King is a special teamer.

I have no doubt they will make changes in the defense, they always do year to year. They certainly should dump the “Reid scheme” of 4 safeties.
They could be more aggressive, and frankly they could get more conservative too.
What I am saying is that Belichick is making those decisions and Belichick has a very conservative philosophy, which is accentuated by being better than almost every team you face (aggressiveness is high risk high reward and is a better plan for a lesser team than a better one).
The arguments that Hightower commented on okay calling in an OTA and that the eagle game was proof that their is a new philosophy and Flores will have free reign until he fails are ridiculous. My post was to ask how people making those arguments account for the style of play last night.

The end result is nothing we have seen or heard to this point is relevant information to predict that there will be a change from a tried and proven successful conservative philosophy to “the Flores aggressive defense”.

 

[luuked]

Grigsby was all around the ball on ST's....I think I might put him on the 53 now ahead of M.Flowers..or maybe B.King...not sure

I would he surprised if King is not on the 53. Great ST who would immediately get picked up by another team solely for that (Detroit? Titans?)

DL...Shelton was getting destroyed here and there in the middle. Looks like Shelton is not that good at keeping OL-men walled off when moving laterally? He kept getting knocked over sideways and taking himself out of plays in the 1st quarter.

Funny how perceptions differ. Here is what Mike Dussault wrote (via https://www.patspropaganda.com/patriots-panthers-preseason-2018/#more-4100)

Danny Shelton continues to look like a great pickup and a perfect fit for the middle of the defense.

I am closer to his POV.

 

[goheels22002]

I have no doubt they will make changes in the defense, they always do year to year. They certainly should dump the “Reid scheme” of 4 safeties.
They could be more aggressive, and frankly they could get more conservative too.
What I am saying is that Belichick is making those decisions and Belichick has a very conservative philosophy, which is accentuated by being better than almost every team you face (aggressiveness is high risk high reward and is a better plan for a lesser team than a better one).
The arguments that Hightower commented on okay calling in an OTA and that the eagle game was proof that their is a new philosophy and Flores will have free reign until he fails are ridiculous. My post was to ask how people making those arguments account for the style of play last night.

The end result is nothing we have seen or heard to this point is relevant information to predict that there will be a change from a tried and proven successful conservative philosophy to “the Flores aggressive defense”.

I agree that it's fundamentally Belichick's defense and that Flores doesn't have freedom with the defense to the extent that Matt Patricia or Romeo Crennel had. But I do see a different approach that will make lots of us happier who wish we'd see more consistently aggressive pass rushing.

The Texans game in two weeks will be interesting with DeShaun Watson at QB. That kid is a good test for these guys.

 

[luuked]

But I do see a different approach that will make lots of us happier who wish we'd see more consistently aggressive pass rushing.

The Texans game in two weeks will be interesting with DeShaun Watson at QB. That kid is a good test for these guys.

Is there someone who actually expects anything but the classic contain/play the edge strategy from the Patriots against the Texans (or any mobile QB for that matter ?). And looking at the rest of our schedule I would not be surprised if we primarily play non-aggressive contain in the majority of games this year.

 

[maineman209]

Is there someone who actually expects anything but the classic contain/play the edge strategy from the Patriots against the Texans (or any mobile QB for that matter ?). And looking at the rest of our schedule I would not be surprised if we primarily play non-aggressive contain in the majority of games this year.

Non aggressive contain early in games, and especially when the opponent is still on their own side of the 50. When the opponent crosses midfield, the defense becomes a little more aggressive. And later in games, especially with a lead, the dogs get to run relatively freely.

Same as it ever was.

The difference this season may be a little more situational opportunism abetted by having the horses to succeed more often than last season.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Non aggressive contain early in games, and especially when the opponent is still on their own side of the 50. When the opponent crosses midfield, the defense becomes a little more aggressive. And later in games, especially with a lead, the dogs get to run relatively freely.

Same as it ever was.

The difference this season may be a little more situational opportunism abetted by having the horses to succeed more often than last season.

Not sure why this is so hard to understand for some tbh.

It's become numbing though.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree that it's fundamentally Belichick's defense and that Flores doesn't have freedom with the defense to the extent that Matt Patricia or Romeo Crennel had. But I do see a different approach that will make lots of us happier who wish we'd see more consistently aggressive pass rushing.

The Texans game in two weeks will be interesting with DeShaun Watson at QB. That kid is a good test for these guys.

I don’t think we will have any significant t philosophical change but we do have better pass rushers.
I hope our plan isn’t to send 6 all day against a guy who can escape them and throw into 5 covered by 5.

 

[ralmat55]

Dont’a Hightower is entering his 7th season with the Patriots. He should know the Patriot Way as well as anyone. Patriot Players don’t talk about schemes and strategy, and they sure don’t backdoor criticize their former DC and current Head Coach as they praise the new ways of the new de facto DC.

Has anyone been curious enough to wonder why Hightower felt free to say what he did not only during mini camp but to repeat it once training camp began? It just seems unusual compared to how things have been done in Foxboro for so long.

My impression watching the game and rewatching it this morning on NFLN was the defense was trying to play fast and bring pressure more than their norm in this game as well but Carolina seriously exposed the Pats run D - especially against the right side of the alignment which slowed them down a lot. The pressure stats were actually quite good (9 pressures in 19 attempts according to Evan Lazar) but Panther QBs kept escaping out the front door extending the play. They need to do a better job of containing the QB in the pocket especially in the opener against Watson.

 

[Sfpat]

Rewatched the game. I think Decker still has the wheels, ability to get open, just don't think he has the desire. He was pretty nonchalant out there, not getting his feet down on the third down sideline throw and the other drop. He didn't seem to care.

 

[woolster22]

Rewatched the game. I think Decker still has the wheels, ability to get open, just don't think he has the desire. He was pretty nonchalant out there, not getting his feet down on the third down sideline throw and the other drop. He didn't seem to care.

What a piece of JETE.

 

[supafly]

I wish we had known about Edelman's suspension before we let Danny Amendola go.

I’m wondering if it would’ve even mattered that much, Deb, considering that the Dolphins overpaid by about 2x what Belichick would likely have offered. On top of that, Amendola would’ve had more leverage over New England had the news about Edelman’s suspension came out, so I’m guessing that they may have made the same decision, either way.

What’s disappointing to me are the situations surrounding the guys who are no longer here (Matthews, Britt) and the guy who is likely going to be gone soon (Decker).

 

[maineman209]

What a piece of JETE.

Yet another promising career nipped in the bud by the "Jete Culture".