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Patriots Training Camp- Wednesday August 24th


Shotgun formations, or formations (where the players position themselves, pre-snap) in general have little to do with the type of offense run. You will see the same type of formations in very different offenses. Formations are used in combination with personnel combinations (WR/TE/RB) to produced a desired mismatch, or exploit a weakness. This is the jumping board for the offense/plays being called, after which, it's all about execution.

Typically our offensive philosophy has evolved with the talent we acquire or lose over the years or in response to what the rest of the league is doing, offensively or defensively, but at center it's been pretty much the same. It centers around the Erhardt Perkins football offense philosophy which is built on "concepts" offense, starting with formation, protection, and one or two combos (concepts) to either side of the ball. These "combos" are routes that compliment each other. Depending on the amount of experience the players have in this system, it can be very simple or VERY complex. In Brady's last few years here, and especially when Edelman and Gronk were still a vital part of the offense, the EP was stretched to it's virtual limitations, and McDaniels could just keep dialing up one different play/formation/personnel after another, to infinity, like he did in the SB vs. the Rams.

But when you have all new players, and a QB with just 1 full year of experience, there's bound to be growing pains.
Thanks this was super useful and pretty nerdy ...

So as I understand, EP works when you have established QB and receiver tandem with a established OC , whilst for a team in transition, just holds you back.

Could EP system be one of the reasons for the subpar season that cam had. Agree , cam was not a functional QB and Mac acclimatized well to EP last year. But lays a lot more learning on QB and receivers.

So the reason to move away from it this year has more to do with Josh who is not around to teach the nuances or explore the infinities as well as understanding limitations of new receivers who join the team. so we go to a simplified offense that is easier to coach and also for new players to acclimatize. If that's the case , when can we expect to see better assimilation of these newer but simpler concepts by the offense?

Does the new shanahan /mcvay system place more learning on offensive line instead of QB and receivers , hence leading to sloppy offensive line play? If that's the case our evaluation of Offensive linemen might need to change?
 
Yeah, people read way too much into the preseason.

I can't remember if it was 2003 or 2004, but I remember the Patriots defense played so poorly in the second preseason game that Belichick made the starters play for most of the game where the other team pulled their starters by midway through the second quarter. Those two years had two of the best Patriots' defenses in Patriots' history.

And I also remember in 2007 that Moss struggled in training camp and got injured they shut him down and people were even talking about him being cut on the final cutdown. He went onto break records that season.

I don't put much stock into training camp and the preseason. It is concerning the offense has struggled, but I don't make definitive judgements until the Pats play 3-4 games and see if they fix things.
The first TD catch against the jets. I was in awe. My wife heard TD Patriots and pure silence from the basement. She came down to make sure I was alright. I just looked at her with a huge ****in smile and said the NFL should have made a rule that Randy Moss and TB are not allowed on the same team. They really ****ed this one up!

She just looked at me and said I'm glad you're ok.
 
Thanks this was super useful and pretty nerdy ...

So as I understand, EP works when you have established QB and receiver tandem with a established OC , whilst for a team in transition, just holds you back.

Could EP system be one of the reasons for the subpar season that cam had. Agree , cam was not a functional QB and Mac acclimatized well to EP last year. But lays a lot more learning on QB and receivers.

So the reason to move away from it this year has more to do with Josh who is not around to teach the nuances or explore the infinities as well as understanding limitations of new receivers who join the team. so we go to a simplified offense that is easier to coach and also for new players to acclimatize. If that's the case , when can we expect to see better assimilation of these newer but simpler concepts by the offense?

Does the new shanahan /mcvay system place more learning on offensive line instead of QB and receivers , hence leading to sloppy offensive line play? If that's the case our evaluation of Offensive linemen might need to change?

I was going to go back and edit my initial post in response to you because I didn't have time to finish it, but since you responded to it, I will start a new one.

First, I want to go back to that Superbowl vs. the LA Rams. The players in the EP system that year, were so knowledgeable, so experienced, that you could take any one player and put him anywhere on the field and he would know exactly what to do. That's why Josh was able to dial up that famous Hoss Y Juke play that broke open the game- it wasn't even in the script for that game, hadn't even been called for a few games (IIRC) but since the players were so experienced, Josh was able to dig deep into his bag and dust it off, and what's amazing was the personnel on the field was a 22 if I remember right, the very last type of personnel you want executing four vertical routes, but they did. I can remember thinking WTF was Devlin doing split out wide?? But it was what finally defeated what was a very masterful defensive duel.

The EP works when you have a handful of players who have mastered it deeply- especially the QB, and it's a nice bonus if the QB is very cerebral as Brady was (is). That's why I was not happy when James White announced his retirement- when he left; the final link to that "deep knowledge" was removed.

And yes, Cam just couldn't master the EP- he's an instinctual player, not a cerebral one.

We're not moving away from the EP, we are simply evolving- the EP was never and will never be a static offense, it's always evolving, on a yearly basis. Right now we're moving away from utilizing FB's, but to what? I don't know, and I don't even think the team knows. they won't know until mid-October which Belichick has said is typically the time when you know what kind of team you have.

Mac Jones has only one full year in the EP system, some of his receivers have had only a few- so there's bound to be growing pains, errors, and such. It's not a matter of simplifying or trying not to make things too complex, it's just a matter of reps. The more time you put into it, the easier it becomes- muscle memory so to speak. That's why BB has had two joint practices this year with two different teams- invaluable reps right there.

So next year, you'll probably see the NFL outlaw holding more than one joint-team practice, per team. :rolleyes:

Not sure why you are referring to Shanny/McVay in relation to our OL's sloppy play?
 
Not sure why you are referring to Shanny/McVay in relation to our OL's sloppy play?
Again a great post ..
My understanding was we are moving more to a system that mimics shanahan/mcvay to a certain degree . So my hypothesis is OL is struggling because of the move to those concepts which could possibly lay more emphasis on OL towards adjusting formations based on Defense alignments .
 
Again a great post ..
My understanding was we are moving more to a system that mimics shanahan/mcvay to a certain degree . So my hypothesis is OL is struggling because of the move to those concepts which could possibly lay more emphasis on OL towards adjusting formations based on Defense alignments .

From what I understand, yes, the increase in use of the outside zone blocking requires a great deal of instinctual understanding from the OL. This, on top of the fact that our OL didn't look good last year, makes for a rather difficult adjustment, potentially the most difficult relative to the other positions.
 
Yeah, people read way too much into the preseason.

I can't remember if it was 2003 or 2004, but I remember the Patriots defense played so poorly in the second preseason game that Belichick made the starters play for most of the game where the other team pulled their starters by midway through the second quarter. Those two years had two of the best Patriots' defenses in Patriots' history.

And I also remember in 2007 that Moss struggled in training camp and got injured they shut him down and people were even talking about him being cut on the final cutdown. He went onto break records that season.

I don't put much stock into training camp and the preseason. It is concerning the offense has struggled, but I don't make definitive judgements until the Pats play 3-4 games and see if they fix things.
I just read through a few 2007 preseason threads, and I can't believe for how long some posters have posted on this site. You're not kidding about the Moss thing.
 
Well it's great to hear Pats took the drubbing yesterday as a challenge, and by the sound of it did pretty well today. That's at least encouraging that they CAN put it together. I still think it's important for the starters to play a few series Friday. And, it'd be a big boost to see some offensive firepower, even in preseason. This year, I think it matters with such a new team/system going into a new season.
 
Later, wide receiver Nelson Agholor and offensive tackle Nelson Agholor both exited the practice area with members of the training staff. Both eventually returned but did not reenter competitive drills, watching the rest of practice from the sideline.
Yeah, but they both did so with greater speed than last years' team.
 
Here we go again, a member of the media trying to stay relevant, speculating "a feeling" and suddenly it becomes fact.

"That's what it sounds like to me, is a benching," Perry told host Tom E. Curran on a new episode of the Patriots Talk Podcast. "(Brown) didn't play in that preseason game, and my understanding since then is that the team was not happy with his effort level during the week against the Panthers.

"That's what I've come to learn, and they let him know that. I don't know if that led directly to him not playing, but put one and one together. Kendrick Bourne also missed that preseason game. Feels more disciplinary in nature."

No ****. Why can't Curren just come out and say, "A source from the team said bla bla....."

Why? Because he can't get 2 sources so he 1/2 asses it.
I used to like Curran and though he had some insight and inside info.
He has become extremely douchey, smarmy, and lazy. I don't want to hear about you're ****in T-time,
He reminds me of a former coworker. He thinks "I'm extremely clever. I said it, therefore, it's extremely clever."
He's not nearly as entertaining or clever as he thinks he is.
Perry needs to put some distance between himself and Curran.
 
I used to like Curran and though he had some insight and inside info.
He has become extremely douchey, smarmy, and lazy. I don't want to hear about you're ****in T-time,
He reminds me of a former coworker. He thinks "I'm extremely clever. I said it, therefore, it's extremely clever."
He's not nearly as entertaining or clever as he thinks he is.
Perry needs to put some distance between himself and Curran.
I like Perry. Seems like a hardworking kid who wants to do a good job.
 
It isn't just preseason. Outside of some joint practices with the Panthers I haven't heard many glowing reports about the state of the team. One of the few players I was hearing singled out for good performances on a regular basis was Thornton and now he is hurt for 8 weeks. I know everyone wants to whistle past the graveyard and act like having two guys who were never on the offensive side of the ball call plays on offense with our second year QB but it is hard not to have some concern at this point.

Again, until we see it transfer into the regular season, I think people are reading too much into it. I pointed out based on his training camp performance, Moss should have been cut before the 2007 season.

Reports about the defense has been generally positive. The issues with the offense seems to be the offensive line primarily not the entire offense. We saw last year the o-line play like crap the first month of the season and then get fixed. They can fix the issues with the o-line before the season starts or early in the season.

Not saying it will be fixed, but until they prove they can’t fix it, I won’t accept that it cannot be fixed and the season is lost.
 


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