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Patriots Only Used 2TE Offense for 18% of Snaps This Season


I think the issue with this is that the combined money for Henry and jonnu is wayyyy too much for one #1 TE (who by the way, isn’t in the top tier of TE’s like gronk kelce kittle andrews). It’s not going to be an effective way to build the team, to pay two #1 TE contracts for production from one of them. That money needs to be allocated elsewhere.
This sounds good as a critique, ex post facto, 4 years from now, if one of them "hit" and one was a miss, and if they knew in advance which would be which. I do think that building them into a dual threat just wasn't in the cards with Mac's actual rate of development, not our fantasy of when he would grow into this field-commanding assassin we want him to be.

It's worth remembering that just because Mac can play as a rookie as a "meh"-to-decent NFL QB, doesn't mean that's his ceiling. If it were, he'd never grow to the point that he's using both TEs fully. It tends to feel like "this will never get better" because we don't know the next level of development. For that matter, with a perfect match of Jonnu picking it up and Mac seeing all his receivers, maybe Year 1 WOULD be a legit candidate for the year that it all came together as if miraculously. Well, it didn't, which I think is the more likely outcome.

The Pats put the money down for both of them. I think, but I don't know, that they were tired of playing the odds and not replacing Gronk. 19 and 20 were lost years at the position. When 2 decent shots were there to be taken during the salary cap "sale" year, they spent on both.

How much of the move was setting the table for a "TE heaven" future, and how much the move was hedging, you tell me.

You're complaining that Smith isn't Kittle, or Kelce, or Gronk. I would counter that (1), he doesn't have a "K" in his name, so right there, he's behind the 8 ball. But also (2), Henry is.

They wanted to have a Kittle or Kelce or Gronk. They got 1. The other guy is, but non-star TE standards, no slouch. There might not be enough balls avail. right now to TEs to have 2 guys perform at a number 1 level. So you're complaining that they spent on both. That's fair.

Henry caught 9TD, 3 more than Kittle or Gronk, the same number as Kelce. His catches were 50 for 603 yards, trailing those other guys, especially Kelce (though if you adjusted for percentage of total stats for their QBs, Henry might look better, as would Smith. Yet as you say, we paid both).

Both our guys are on 2021 deals with APY of 12.5M, Jonnu over 4 years, Henry over 3. We can get out of either or both without taking a huge bath in '23.

Comparisons -
Gronk is on a one year, $8M, anywhere-but-hometown discount to play with his buddy Tom. Kelce's on a 14.3M APY contract from 2020, but surprisingly, far less of it is guaranteed than our guys. Maybe age-related, even though he's not that old? Imunno. Also Spotrac calls it a 14.3M APY contract over 4 years, but their chart goes through 2025. I dont even know how to figure those last 2 years, maybe they are option years or something. they're also vaporware, since it's almost all salary. You cap guys tell me what I'm missing Travis Kelce

Kittle's getting 15M/Yr APY, 5 years, from 2020.

So all that to say, we're paying both guys not like top-tier TEs (to set that market you'd need another couple million) but like true #1s, and we bought in bulk.

I can think of a few explanations:

1) The Patriots thought they'd combine for, say, 15 TD, 1,500 yards, and 150 catches or something, b/c they thought Mac was that good, not to mention our world-pwning offensive line (unlikely)

2) The Patriots thought their combined production this year would be around where it is, but now they would like to get more out of them collectively, especially Smith individually (this seems more likely)

3) The Patriots thought they would throw 2 big contracts and $25M APY at the problem and get 1 good TE, with the other forever producing as a #2, and make sure to guarantee large chunks of their contracts. (This seems unlikely; you'd think they'd at least hope to eventually have a 2-headed monster, since they're paying for one.)

4) Always a fave - Josh McDaniel has fooled everybody except the Boston sports media and bulletin board trolls, and is actually absolutely incapable of running an offense, and they're both great picks but he's so feckless it takes the light from feck a year to hit him. Those poor teams that wanted him as head coach! (PS, maybe getting whomped as bad as we did in that Bills game will take the bloom off the Josh rose. Hey look, Josh Rosen almost!)

Going forward, it is very expensive to part ways with Smith until 2023, and unless we really really want to then (still on the hook for 13.75 M dead cap), we should wait until '24, when it drops to 3.75M. His contract is structured for us not to get all panicky about it.

The rest of the Board excels at really knowing what's going on. All I'm any good at is knowing what I do know and what I don't know. But adding up the things I do know, it seems like the jury is not in on Smith. That said, there's one thing more expensive than giving up on a guy you have to pay anyway, and that's continuing to play a guy you have to pay but who isn't any good.

I don't think that's Smith. I WILL be interested to see if this grouping gets more productive next year!
 
Josh should have learned the 2TE offense a long time ago after seeing BOB run it here so well. He didn't. Then he should have absolutely learned it this past offseason when our biggest acquisitions were two TEs. He didn't. At this point it's safe to assume Josh will never know how to deploy a 2 TE offense. but due to the contracts we MUST deploy a 2 TE offense. Bring in someone to help him with the 2 TE offense stuff or replace him. At this point this weakness and lack of effort is inexcusable. We should bring someone who can run a 2 TE offense as a co-OC.
 
PS -- and Mac's pace as a rookie starter is up there with the best in history, don't get me wrong. I'm saying we're seeing a fantastic rookie and thinking, well, how much more do we think we're ever going to get out of Mac?

In other words, he's good enough to be a meh starter, but as a rookie... so we look at Josh Allen and we think "Same species, my ass." But it's a mistake to think that any pass-catching position will not benefit from that growth. Since he can actually play, we think, oh yeah this guy will do, but he's nothing special. There is upside there, and the TEs will benefit.

All that said, Jonnu Smith was better than our 2020 TE room. All put together. Now, that was the 2020 TE room with "overhead" Cam Newton at QB. (Hey, it's a better name than "Mac & cheese.") But again, don't get me wrong, that's not good. That's the very floor of prodution we were trying to beat. Clearly, with what we were spending, we intended to beat it by a lot.
 
Josh should have learned the 2TE offense a long time ago after seeing BOB run it here so well. He didn't. Then he should have absolutely learned it this past offseason when our biggest acquisitions were two TEs. He didn't. At this point it's safe to assume Josh will never know how to deploy a 2 TE offense. but due to the contracts we MUST deploy a 2 TE offense. Bring in someone to help him with the 2 TE offense stuff or replace him. At this point this weakness and lack of effort is inexcusable. We should bring someone who can run a 2 TE offense as a co-OC.
How well did BOB run it with a rookie QB?
 
Thanks mostly to the Jete x 2 and the Jaguars.
It’s all the games. Every one of them. That’s how it works. You think Houston faced no bad teams?

But let’s play your game.
Eliminate those 3 games and the patriots averaged 23.7 in their other 14, still 10% better than OBriens average in Houston and more than every season except his highest. His best scoring offense was 402 pts, 25.1 per game in 2018 but if I remove 3 games, it’s 22.2.

So McDs O did better this year than OBriens did overall, or in any season in Houston.
 
Josh should have learned the 2TE offense a long time ago after seeing BOB run it here so well. He didn't. Then he should have absolutely learned it this past offseason when our biggest acquisitions were two TEs. He didn't. At this point it's safe to assume Josh will never know how to deploy a 2 TE offense. but due to the contracts we MUST deploy a 2 TE offense. Bring in someone to help him with the 2 TE offense stuff or replace him. At this point this weakness and lack of effort is inexcusable. We should bring someone who can run a 2 TE offense as a co-OC.
You mean like 2012 when he ran it better than OBrien did? Like that?
 
Josh should have learned the 2TE offense a long time ago after seeing BOB run it here so well. He didn't. Then he should have absolutely learned it this past offseason when our biggest acquisitions were two TEs. He didn't. At this point it's safe to assume Josh will never know how to deploy a 2 TE offense. but due to the contracts we MUST deploy a 2 TE offense. Bring in someone to help him with the 2 TE offense stuff or replace him. At this point this weakness and lack of effort is inexcusable. We should bring someone who can run a 2 TE offense as a co-OC.

McD has a long history of not caring about tight end production and having the worst in the league in using tight ends in the passing game: Denver'10, StLouis'11, NE'19, NE'20.
 
Fox article from 2010. Promising Broncos TE Tony Sheffler sees receiving production drop by 50% post-McDaniels then gets shipped out.

 
This sounds good as a critique, ex post facto, 4 years from now, if one of them "hit" and one was a miss, and if they knew in advance which would be which. I do think that building them into a dual threat just wasn't in the cards with Mac's actual rate of development, not our fantasy of when he would grow into this field-commanding assassin we want him to be.

It's worth remembering that just because Mac can play as a rookie as a "meh"-to-decent NFL QB, doesn't mean that's his ceiling. If it were, he'd never grow to the point that he's using both TEs fully. It tends to feel like "this will never get better" because we don't know the next level of development. For that matter, with a perfect match of Jonnu picking it up and Mac seeing all his receivers, maybe Year 1 WOULD be a legit candidate for the year that it all came together as if miraculously. Well, it didn't, which I think is the more likely outcome.

The Pats put the money down for both of them. I think, but I don't know, that they were tired of playing the odds and not replacing Gronk. 19 and 20 were lost years at the position. When 2 decent shots were there to be taken during the salary cap "sale" year, they spent on both.

How much of the move was setting the table for a "TE heaven" future, and how much the move was hedging, you tell me.

You're complaining that Smith isn't Kittle, or Kelce, or Gronk. I would counter that (1), he doesn't have a "K" in his name, so right there, he's behind the 8 ball. But also (2), Henry is.

They wanted to have a Kittle or Kelce or Gronk. They got 1. The other guy is, but non-star TE standards, no slouch. There might not be enough balls avail. right now to TEs to have 2 guys perform at a number 1 level. So you're complaining that they spent on both. That's fair.

Henry caught 9TD, 3 more than Kittle or Gronk, the same number as Kelce. His catches were 50 for 603 yards, trailing those other guys, especially Kelce (though if you adjusted for percentage of total stats for their QBs, Henry might look better, as would Smith. Yet as you say, we paid both).

Both our guys are on 2021 deals with APY of 12.5M, Jonnu over 4 years, Henry over 3. We can get out of either or both without taking a huge bath in '23.

Comparisons -
Gronk is on a one year, $8M, anywhere-but-hometown discount to play with his buddy Tom. Kelce's on a 14.3M APY contract from 2020, but surprisingly, far less of it is guaranteed than our guys. Maybe age-related, even though he's not that old? Imunno. Also Spotrac calls it a 14.3M APY contract over 4 years, but their chart goes through 2025. I dont even know how to figure those last 2 years, maybe they are option years or something. they're also vaporware, since it's almost all salary. You cap guys tell me what I'm missing Travis Kelce

Kittle's getting 15M/Yr APY, 5 years, from 2020.

So all that to say, we're paying both guys not like top-tier TEs (to set that market you'd need another couple million) but like true #1s, and we bought in bulk.

I can think of a few explanations:

1) The Patriots thought they'd combine for, say, 15 TD, 1,500 yards, and 150 catches or something, b/c they thought Mac was that good, not to mention our world-pwning offensive line (unlikely)

2) The Patriots thought their combined production this year would be around where it is, but now they would like to get more out of them collectively, especially Smith individually (this seems more likely)

3) The Patriots thought they would throw 2 big contracts and $25M APY at the problem and get 1 good TE, with the other forever producing as a #2, and make sure to guarantee large chunks of their contracts. (This seems unlikely; you'd think they'd at least hope to eventually have a 2-headed monster, since they're paying for one.)

4) Always a fave - Josh McDaniel has fooled everybody except the Boston sports media and bulletin board trolls, and is actually absolutely incapable of running an offense, and they're both great picks but he's so feckless it takes the light from feck a year to hit him. Those poor teams that wanted him as head coach! (PS, maybe getting whomped as bad as we did in that Bills game will take the bloom off the Josh rose. Hey look, Josh Rosen almost!)

Going forward, it is very expensive to part ways with Smith until 2023, and unless we really really want to then (still on the hook for 13.75 M dead cap), we should wait until '24, when it drops to 3.75M. His contract is structured for us not to get all panicky about it.

The rest of the Board excels at really knowing what's going on. All I'm any good at is knowing what I do know and what I don't know. But adding up the things I do know, it seems like the jury is not in on Smith. That said, there's one thing more expensive than giving up on a guy you have to pay anyway, and that's continuing to play a guy you have to pay but who isn't any good.

I don't think that's Smith. I WILL be interested to see if this grouping gets more productive next year!
I’m not saying the smith deal is already a bust. I’m really holding out hope that he delivers next year.
My larger point is that I don’t think it makes sense to look at it as “they wanted a tight end so they threw a bunch of money at 2 of them, and 1 stuck. Not bad.”
You just can’t pay double at key positions, get one good player for the price of two, and build a well-rounded roster. There’s too much money allocated in that spot. If long term (after next year, let’s say), Henry is productive and jonnu isn’t, that’s a problem. These are huge FA contracts, not fourth round picks. Missing on them really hurts. In terms of the jury still being out on Jonnu, I absolutely agree. They stopped even trying to use him after the first few weeks.
And I’m definitely going to push back on Henry being at the level of a kelce kittle Gronk andrews. He’s not. His presence in the red zone was really helpful. But he had three games this year with 50 or more yards. 3. You’re just going to be that level of impact player when your damage outside of scoring short touchdowns is not as significant. Other elite TEs are bigger staples of the offense that elevate the offense and consistently move the ball.
He also aligns as a receiver for 61% of his snaps, so he’s likely not giving you the value in the running game that kittle or gronk is.
 
I’m not saying the smith deal is already a bust. I’m really holding out hope that he delivers next year.
My larger point is that I don’t think it makes sense to look at it as “they wanted a tight end so they threw a bunch of money at 2 of them, and 1 stuck. Not bad.”
You just can’t pay double at key positions, get one good player for the price of two, and build a well-rounded roster. There’s too much money allocated in that spot. If long term (after next year, let’s say), Henry is productive and jonnu isn’t, that’s a problem. These are huge FA contracts, not fourth round picks. Missing on them really hurts. In terms of the jury still being out on Jonnu, I absolutely agree. They stopped even trying to use him after the first few weeks.
And I’m definitely going to push back on Henry being at the level of a kelce kittle Gronk andrews. He’s not. His presence in the red zone was really helpful. But he had three games this year with 50 or more yards. 3. You’re just going to be that level of impact player when your damage outside of scoring short touchdowns is not as significant. Other elite TEs are bigger staples of the offense that elevate the offense and consistently move the ball.
He also aligns as a receiver for 61% of his snaps, so he’s likely not giving you the value in the running game that kittle or gronk is.

Smith's cap penalties are too massive. They have to make it work in 2022 and 2023.
It was odd that Henry was the better blocker but he's placed off the line a lot here and Smith is a poor blocker who they use basically as only an in-line blocker. Just more head scratchers from this mediocre intelligence offensive staff
 
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I’m not saying the smith deal is already a bust. I’m really holding out hope that he delivers next year.
My larger point is that I don’t think it makes sense to look at it as “they wanted a tight end so they threw a bunch of money at 2 of them, and 1 stuck. Not bad.”
You just can’t pay double at key positions, get one good player for the price of two, and build a well-rounded roster. There’s too much money allocated in that spot. If long term (after next year, let’s say), Henry is productive and jonnu isn’t, that’s a problem. These are huge FA contracts, not fourth round picks. Missing on them really hurts. In terms of the jury still being out on Jonnu, I absolutely agree. They stopped even trying to use him after the first few weeks.
And I’m definitely going to push back on Henry being at the level of a kelce kittle Gronk andrews. He’s not. His presence in the red zone was really helpful. But he had three games this year with 50 or more yards. 3. You’re just going to be that level of impact player when your damage outside of scoring short touchdowns is not as significant. Other elite TEs are bigger staples of the offense that elevate the offense and consistently move the ball.
He also aligns as a receiver for 61% of his snaps, so he’s likely not giving you the value in the running game that kittle or gronk is.
I agree on your topline here and on the following line, I'm almost there. I think they'd take 1 1/2 for the price of 2, and the 1/2 guy really should add more than Smith has. I did put in every stat that drop-name flutie up there linked to in opinion link form - as demonstrated, then superfluously reinforced by drop acid flutie, 19 and 20 were horrible, and Smith alone would have been an upgrade over our production in either of those years -- not just by the number 1, by the whole TE staff. If Smith were the no. 1 out of the acquisition, surpassing '20 and '21 wouldn't be enough, but he's not.

Your second point is that Henry's not at the level of the guys with "k" in their names. The numbers are what they are; he's low man on that totem pole for yards and catches, but certainly it's a continuum not an order of magnitude difference. Int erms of TDs, he's tied for first with the K guys, & w/ Andrews. But you are right, in terms of yardage, he's "the poor man's" TE1 compared with those guys. That's the case for 28 teams. So yeah, he's a TE1, not the TE1. (Not this year :D). He had 600 yards - those guys had like 900-1300.

Those were two TE1 deals, but they weren't typical "1 upmanship," "last top deal sets the market" deals. They were less than former top deals. Big chunks of change, no doubt, especially measured in APY.

Once again, I'd want more out of them as a unit, and especially from Smith, by the end of their tenure here. We'll see what we can get out of them. I'm sure some guy on the broncos in 2010 was upset about playing under McDaniel, so that might be the problem, great find btw. More likely, some **** just takes a minute.

Josh McDaniel '21 was just brilliant if JMD controls TE production, vs. JMD 20. Maybe he's been hanging on Patsfans wisdom and learning his job by reading the GDT. More likely, the personnel improved. Mac Jones far outplayed both Cam Newton 20 and Tom Brady 19, vis a vis our TEs. Maybe that's because he's just a better QB. I think that is true vs. Cam but not vs. Tom. Perhaps we did improve our TEs.

Did they improve enough? Not yet.

So I guess we're really in about the same place, or close.
 
The two TE set is mistakenly credited to McDaniels when really it is a Belichick fetish.

The offense McDaniels helped pioneer is based more out of the spread and requires multiple WRs who can work the middle of the field. We associate the success of this offense to the TE position because Gronk was uniquely talented as a receiver. He was, in reality, a #1 WR who was an elite blocker as a luxury. The one time McDaniels ran a successful two TE offense was 2016, when the second TE was a pro bowl level player.

The peak Gronk/Hernandez teams were Bill O'Brien's. Even Charlie Weiss ran the two TE set more effectively with Graham and Fauria than McDaniels did with Graham and Watson.

Bill has committed to Henry and Smith for two more years, for better or for worse. Perhaps another OC is better suited to run this offense.
 
The two TE set is mistakenly credited to McDaniels when really it is a Belichick fetish.

The offense McDaniels helped pioneer is based more out of the spread and requires multiple WRs who can work the middle of the field. We associate the success of this offense to the TE position because Gronk was uniquely talented as a receiver. He was, in reality, a #1 WR who was an elite blocker as a luxury. The one time McDaniels ran a successful two TE offense was 2016, when the second TE was a pro bowl level player.

The peak Gronk/Hernandez teams were Bill O'Brien's. Even Charlie Weiss ran the two TE set more effectively with Graham and Fauria than McDaniels did with Graham and Watson.

Bill has committed to Henry and Smith for two more years, for better or for worse. Perhaps another OC is better suited to run this offense.

Deja Vu:

Draft busts at WR/RB: Chad Jackson, Laurence Maroney, NKeal Harry, Sony Michel.

Draft busts at consecutive 3rd round TEs: Dave Thomas, Garrett Mills, Asiasi, Keene.

2 tight ends and only use 1 in the passing game: Gronk/Dwayne-Allen, Hunter Henry-Jonnu Smith.

.
 
I think this stat speaks to what they thought of Jonnu.

maybe picking up the playbook, maybe injury… but I feel something just held him back that can be fixable.

Jonnu in ‘20: 448, 10.9 avg (34% decrease)
Henry in ‘20: 613, 10.2 avg (2% decrease)

So we aren’t necessarily working with world beaters… and also it’s clear from seasons prior that Henry’s the guy.

One concern is the red zone, as Hunter went from 4 tds to 9, Jonnu from 8 to 1.

but I have faith they’ll figure it out.
 
How could we know Jonnu Smith "didn't get it" if he wasn't used in that capacity? Are you 100% certain he wasn't used as the receiver because Henry was a significantly worse blocker?

I've defended the Jonnu Smith signing in my circles using the same thing : He's just plain not being used to his strengths..how can that be his fault. He's being asked to block almost full time. If it's a playbook thing only...explain Nkeal Harry to me please and why you wouldn't try Jonnu there given the price tag?

If THIS was their plan all along ..pay him that to become Dwayne Allen 2.0..its a colossal bust (self inflicted )I have a really hard time believing you'd sign Jonnu Smith for JUST that, however. Holding out hope for some improvements from coaching and player in 2022.
There was a play against the Bills where he and Meyers both ran shallow outs. It’s hard to believe that one of them didn’t screw up since they were in the same vicinity, and my money would be on Smith.
 
There was a play against the Bills where he and Meyers both ran shallow outs. It’s hard to believe that one of them didn’t screw up since they were in the same vicinity, and my money would be on Smith.

The team has too many middle of the field guys already. Both TEs, Meyers, Bourne all use similar space. And Agholor is underutilized. Adding another smurf slot WR doesn't fit the roster.
 
There was a play against the Bills where he and Meyers both ran shallow outs. It’s hard to believe that one of them didn’t screw up since they were in the same vicinity, and my money would be on Smith.
Im not saying he's perfect. Just saying give him more of a chance
 
Im not saying he's perfect. Just saying give him more of a chance

Play caller needs to stop being lazy. We have several good offensive players but are under utilized. Bourne, Meyers, Henry, Smith, Aghilar, White. The play calling is re-using his stale laminated sheets and mailing it in.
 


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