Patriots ask for permission to speak with Josh McDaniels

[DropKickFlutie]

I was consistent, I included every season as OC or HC and made zero excuses for either.
McDaniel has one poor year of offense on his resume. Daboll has zero good ones.

I'm not too familiar with Daboll, that was DaBruinz' expertise, but I did just take a look at McDaniels' Broncos offense in 2010. You made a really big emphasis earlier that Daboll's offense was in the bottom third of the league, but the Broncos offense in 2010 was ranked 19th in points per game (bottom third), and in 2011 again the Rams were dead last in almost all offensive categories.

If you're going to be fair about this, you need to compare the two in how they did away from the security blanket of Brady/Belichick making players and coaches look good.

 

[Rob0729]

That is a whole different topic, I feel that Belichick has been burned more times by Urban Meyer's draft recommendations than he has benefitted from them. I get the feeling that Meyer has been more about getting his guys drafted than other college coaches (Patriot farm teams) who might have given Belichick more accurate info in the past.

As for the book, I actually read it, while I noticed earlier today you were trashing other posters here vehemently about events that took place when you didn't even read the book yourself. That is pretty funny.

As for what any of us can or cannot prove, all we have is Holley's book, plus a lot of circumstantial evidence like:
- The Patriot drafts before 2006 and after 2008 were great, and dramatically worse from 2006-2008.
- The Patriots after the 2006 draft debacle then traded for Moss and Welker, bypassing offensive draft picks, and for the next few years basically only made offensive lineman picks (probably recommended by Scar). The only major offensive draft bust during that period was 3rd-rd O'Connell, another player that McDaniels worked out.
- The Denver Broncos were decimated by a dozen+ poor draft, roster, and trade decisions that ended in losing almost all of the last 20 games before McDaniels was fired.
- The Rams offense this year was dead last, worse than the Colts, Chiefs, Vikings, every team that had catastrophic events happen to their offenses.

It's circumstantial evidence but they are facts that point to a conclusion. Meanwhile, all I've read coming from you have been excuses. You've been on here all day defending McDaniels' personnel decisions, vehemently attacking multiple fans here, and it is odd how much you care about it.

All that is not evidence of anything related to McDaniels' influence on drafts as an OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR. I don't think McDaniels is a great talent evaluator based on his Denver stay, but I also don't think McDaniels had or will have a ton of influence on the Pats' drafts other than Maroney.

As for Moss, reports were that Belichick always loved Moss and wanted to bring him to the team in 2006 before we knew Jackson was a bust (the Raiders rumored to have him on the block just before the trade deadline in 2006 which was the second month of Maroney and Jackson's rookie season and the Pats were rumored to be in the mix). In fact, considering Jackson had an ACL injury in 2006, I don't think Belichick knew he was going to be a bust in 2007 when he traded for Moss and Welker.

As for Welker, Belichick loved Welker from watching him burn the Patriots. He played a different position than Jackson and obviously Maroney. And again, in 2007 Belichick had no idea that Maroney and Jackson were not going to work out. If he did, he would have gotten a better RB to be the lead back.

As for the poor drafts in 2006 and 2008, Holley credits it to Belichick going off the reservation and not listening to Pioli and his staff and taking outside advice. Troy Brown, Chris Price, and Dale Arnold talk about Holley's book and just that in the clip below:

The Shelf-Life of Bill Belichick on NFL Sunday

As for the Rams, many of us have given reasons why they were b=so bad You just choose to ignore them.

Again, you are just given opions and conjecture that have nothing to back it. It is obvious that Belichick AND BRADY want this guy back for a reason. Belichick wouldn't go after McDaniels unless Brady was on board.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm not too familiar with Daboll, that was DaBruinz' expertise, but I did just take a look at McDaniels' Broncos offense in 2010. You made a really big emphasis earlier that Daboll's offense was in the bottom third of the league, but the Broncos offense in 2010 was ranked 19th in points per game (bottom third), and in 2011 again the Rams were dead last in almost all offensive categories.

If you're going to be fair about this, you need to compare the two in how they did away from the security blanket of Brady/Belichick making players and coaches look good.

When did 19 become in the "bottom third" of 32?

 

[jays52]

In other words, he was somehow rated higher than even the McDaniels' evaluation would have bumped him up to.

And, again, I'm still waiting for McDaniels to be given all his props for Asante.

Check out homeboy citing text out of the ether on command with the swiftness!! You're a bad m-f'er, Deus.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I still don't get how people have taken one isolated instance

You used the phrase "isolated incident" many times to try to make it stick, but seriously if you're going to look at total body of work, look at McDaniels in Denver over two years and his one year with St Louis. He hasn't just made one personnel move. The guy loved Laurence Maroney so much he even burned a 4th round pick to trade for him to Denver. There are articles out there that chronicle over a dozen bad moves he made in Denver, they aren't isolated incidents or odd exceptions. One other poster keeps talking about confirmation bias, but you need to be called out for hyper focusing on certain points and completely ignoring all the other evidence suggesting that McDaniels simply is not good at personnel evaluation.

 

[Ring 6]

I'm not too familiar with Daboll, that was DaBruinz' expertise, but I did just take a look at McDaniels' Broncos offense in 2010. You made a really big emphasis earlier that Daboll's offense was in the bottom third of the league, but the Broncos offense in 2010 was ranked 19th in points per game (bottom third), and in 2011 again the Rams were dead last in almost all offensive categories.

If you're going to be fair about this, you need to compare the two in how they did away from the security blanket of Brady/Belichick making players and coaches look good.

The only 'fair' assessment is their full body of work.
By the way 19th is better than any ranking Daboll has had as an OC.

Brian Daboll has had nothing but bad offenses as an OC.
McDaniel was an excellent OC here, so much that he was hired to replace Mike Shanahan. He ran a terrible offense this year.
There is absolutely not a shred of evidence that could lead to confirm the statement that Daboll is a VERY GOOD OC or that he is AS GOOD AS MCDANIEL.
Feel free to put whatever judgment you wish on McD. Its clear you bear some grudge against him, so feel free to offer whatever evidence you wish to bemoan his abilities, but it is insane to say Brian Daboll is as good. And THAT is what the discussion was.

 

[Rob0729]

I'm not too familiar with Daboll, that was DaBruinz' expertise, but I did just take a look at McDaniels' Broncos offense in 2010. You made a really big emphasis earlier that Daboll's offense was in the bottom third of the league, but the Broncos offense in 2010 was ranked 19th in points per game (bottom third), and in 2011 again the Rams were dead last in almost all offensive categories.

If you're going to be fair about this, you need to compare the two in how they did away from the security blanket of Brady/Belichick making players and coaches look good.

Math isn't a strong suit of your's. Nineteen is the bottom third of 32 teams?

I would say that 19th is pretty strong for a team with Kyle Orton as your QB and a defense that year that was pretty bad. The Broncos' defense was dead last in yards and PPG in 2010.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

As for the Rams, many of us have given reasons why they were b=so bad You just choose to ignore them..

I addressed those earlier, but you chose to ignore them because it didn't fit your point.

Steven Jackson had a good season playing 15 games, most of the offensive starters didn't get hurt until after week 8 when the Rams already had the worst offense before injuries, and Sam Bradford even for 10 games is better than what the Colts, Chiefs, Vikings worked with at QB not to mention the injuries those teams faced as well. Yet, the Rams finished dead last in points per game, yards, 3rd down, pretty much every offensive metric.

Again, there's a lot of circumstantial evidence, but you seem to be very good at coming up with a mountain of excuses to defend. But facts are facts.

 

[TPL]

The latest in writing I could find.
Permission given to interview with Pats.

Report: Pats set to interview Josh McDaniels - CBSSports.com


NFLN just reported again he has been given his release.

Unless he gets a HC position I think he'll be back.

 

[Deus Irae]

I addressed those earlier, but you chose to ignore them because it didn't fit your point.

Steven Jackson had a good season playing 15 games, most of the offensive starters didn't get hurt until after week 8 when the Rams already had the worst offense before injuries, and Sam Bradford even for 10 games is better than what the Colts, Chiefs, Vikings worked with at QB not to mention the injuries those teams faced as well. Yet, the Rams finished dead last in points per game, yards, 3rd down, pretty much every offensive metric.

Again, there's a lot of circumstantial evidence, but you seem to be very good at coming up with a mountain of excuses to defend. But facts are facts.

Facts are facts, but you aren't citing facts. You're making things up.

 

[jays52]

You used the phrase "isolated incident" many times to try to make it stick, but seriously if you're going to look at total body of work, look at McDaniels in Denver over two years and his one year with St Louis. He hasn't just made one personnel move. The guy loved Laurence Maroney so much he even burned a 4th round pick to trade for him to Denver. There are articles out there that chronicle over a dozen bad moves he made in Denver, they aren't isolated incidents or odd exceptions. One other poster keeps talking about confirmation bias, but you need to be called out for hyper focusing on certain points and completely ignoring all the other evidence suggesting that McDaniels simply is not good at personnel evaluation.

Deus has pointed out many good moves McDaniels made in his tenure in Denver. Some point to the Alphonso Smith pick as evidence of failure, but let's not forget how highly rated he was, nor how highly he was ranked by out peers here on the board.

Nevermind the fact that Bradford had to pick up a completely new scheme in a very short time period. Lloyd's loyalty towards McDaniels is an equally soft argument.

He was a very young coach with a lot to learn, but he built a playoff team much in the way Mangini did with the Jets. I think one would be hard pressed to find a young guy coming into his own in any vocation who did not experience growing pains. The difference is that in the NFL the window is exceptionally small and there are few entities willing to go through this process. There is no disputing that he is a highly talented mind and a damn good coach.

Sometimes it is more noble to abandon an opinion, listen to others and reconsider than it is to stalwartly defend a point of view that is most likely incorrect.

 

[Rob0729]

You used the phrase "isolated incident" many times to try to make it stick, but seriously if you're going to look at total body of work, look at McDaniels in Denver over two years and his one year with St Louis. He hasn't just made one personnel move. The guy loved Laurence Maroney so much he even burned a 4th round pick to trade for him to Denver. There are articles out there that chronicle over a dozen bad moves he made in Denver, they aren't isolated incidents or odd exceptions. One other poster keeps talking about confirmation bias, but you need to be called out for hyper focusing on certain points and completely ignoring all the other evidence suggesting that McDaniels simply is not good at personnel evaluation.

You are talking about how McDaniels screwed up the drafts from 2006-2008. I am saying you have shown one isolated instance where he influenced the draft and that had special circumstances. All the rest is red herrings to the argument at hand. McDaniels had little influence on the draft back when he was here and will have again if he comes back. Offensive Coordinators give their opinions, but they are not decision makers. McDaniels wasn't when he was here before and won't when he is here again.

maverick, your problem has always been your inability to stay on topic when it comes to McDaniels. A new screenname hasn't changed that.

 

[strngplyr]

When did 19 become in the "bottom third" of 32?

Bottom 3rd of the top 2/3rds!

 

[DropKickFlutie]

it is insane to say Brian Daboll is as good. And THAT is what the discussion was.

You're right, that was your heated ugly debate with DaBruinz, not mine. But I had to chime in because you weren't being fair in comparing both coaches outside of their involvement with Brady/Belichick, who simply make coaches and players look better.

In terms of saying Daboll is not as good right now, they haven't had the same careers because McDaniels benefitted from Belichick/Brady, so it's hard to compare. I do find it interesting that you will use excuses to defend one guy but then use stats to trash one guy, being inconsistent on a selective basis. But you can't say that Daboll couldn't have been just as good, especially when one looks at what Bill O'Brien accomplished here. BOB is a guy who came from a no-name program at Duke where they went 1-22 before he joined New England, with no prior success. Belichick did the same thing with McDaniels. Belichick has a track record, not unlike what he's done with no-name players, of coaching up and making his offensive coordinators look good.

 

[Rob0729]

Deus has pointed out many good moves McDaniels made in his tenure in Denver. Some point to the Alphonso Smith pick as evidence of failure, but let's not forget how highly rated he was, nor how highly he was ranked by out peers here on the board.

Nevermind the fact that Bradford had to pick up a completely new scheme in a very short time period. Lloyd's loyalty towards McDaniels is an equally soft argument.

He was a very young coach with a lot to learn, but he built a playoff team much in the way Mangini did with the Jets. I think one would be hard pressed to find a young guy coming into his own in any vocation who did not experience growing pains. The difference is that in the NFL the window is exceptionally small and there are few entities willing to go through this process. There is no disputing that he is a highly talented mind and a damn good coach.

Sometimes it is more noble to abandon an opinion, listen to others and reconsider than it is to stalwartly defend a point of view that is most likely incorrect.

Yeah, Lloyd is willing to follow McDaniels anywhere. Bradford says he prefers McDaniels' system and the Rams actually kept him in hopes that their new head coach would keep him (won't happen if they get Fisher since Fisher and McDaniels don't like each other). Obviously, Brady is willing to welcome him back with open arms because he would have to approve of him coming back since he is that influential. McDaniels was the only OC that Belichick gave complete almost complete autonomy which allowed him to work more with the defense on game days.

 

[Deus Irae]

With the possibility of McDaniels returning this season, I wonder if he'd be coming in to observe the changes, consult with BOB and help him in his transition, or replace BOB and let him focus on his Penn State job.....


Man, this postseason has been awesome for stories and sub-plots already, and it's not even the Patriots offseason yet.

 

[Rob0729]

I addressed those earlier, but you chose to ignore them because it didn't fit your point.

Steven Jackson had a good season playing 15 games, most of the offensive starters didn't get hurt until after week 8 when the Rams already had the worst offense before injuries, and Sam Bradford even for 10 games is better than what the Colts, Chiefs, Vikings worked with at QB not to mention the injuries those teams faced as well. Yet, the Rams finished dead last in points per game, yards, 3rd down, pretty much every offensive metric.

Again, there's a lot of circumstantial evidence, but you seem to be very good at coming up with a mountain of excuses to defend. But facts are facts.

Chad Ochocinco is still learning the Patriots offense. Many Patriots players and Belichick have stated McDaniels runs the same offense. The Rams had 11 starters trying to learn the system. It is a complex system.

Funny, you keep on bring up Steven Jackson after you claimed McDaniels didn't use him enough until I pointed out his 2011 numbers were near identical to his 2010. But even so, 1100 yards for a RB is pretty average. The fact of the matter is Jackson hasn't been near elite for several years. I

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I would say that 19th is pretty strong for a team with Kyle Orton as your QB and a defense that year that was pretty bad. The Broncos' defense was dead last in yards and PPG in 2010.

Who traded for Kyle Orton? Who made the personnel moves behind that defense?

You have a long list of excuses, that much is clear. I also don't take kindly to wild accusations, which you seem to shoot off vehemently at multiple people here when things aren't going your way. I'm still waiting to see if ArmChair QB comes back to respond to you, or if he simply put you on his "ignore list" as I am close to doing.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

McDaniels was the only OC that Belichick gave complete almost complete autonomy which allowed him to work more with the defense on game days.

And how do you know this, exactly? Is this more false claims made by you, without actual knowledge as you did earlier when arguing with ArmchairQB about a book you never read?

 

[Keyser Söze]

Chad Ochocinco is still learning the Patriots offense. Many Patriots players and Belichick have stated McDaniels runs the same offense. The Rams had 11 starters trying to learn the system. It is a complex system.

Funny, you keep on bring up Steven Jackson after you claimed McDaniels didn't use him enough until I pointed out his 2011 numbers were near identical to his 2010. But even so, 1100 yards for a RB is pretty average. The fact of the matter is Jackson hasn't been near elite for several years. I

Stop.....