OT: Watson to Brownies

[slifersd]

If you are Mayfield and the Browns come running back to you, what would you do?

Baker basically can ask for anything he wants to from the Browns at this point. If I were him, I would ask for a contract well above my market value, for disrespecting me this entire time and having zero leverage against me.

 

[denverpatsfan]

Mayfield stinks. They are better off with the backup

 

[VJCPatriot]

LOL well the Browns finally got their QB, but what did they have to give up?

Ok found it, Browns give up 3 1sts, a 3rd, and a 4th round pick. That's quite a bounty. Cleveland better hope Watson's legal issues are all cleared up.

 

[lancerman]

It's a lot more difficult to win a "he said/she said" case when you, basically, need a 99% certainty rather than a 50.1`% certainty. It's why "But no criminal charges!" is basically meaningless in cases like these.

Exactly. That's why rape and sexual assault have such a low prosecution rate. It's just one person saying something happened and another saying it didn't. Even in Watson's case it would be 24 criminal trials where the jury basically has totally disbelieve Watson to the point of bypassing reasonable doubt.

 

[lancerman]

What are Vegas odds' MAyfield is starting week 1 for Cleveland?????

Zero. He's never playing for them again. To even consider it they would have to give him a big contract

 

[XLIX]

Baker basically can ask for anything he wants to from the Browns at this point. If I were him, I would ask for a contract well above my market value, for disrespecting me this entire time and having zero leverage against me.

whuh huh? Baker has zero leverage and why the hell would Cleveland give him any sort of new deal or extension? What’s he going to do? Threaten to stay away? Cleveland management would do cartwheels if he stayed away because then they don’t have to cut him and also wouldn’t have to pay him.

Fact is his contract is so expensive that the worst thing he could do to the Browns is show up.. That forces then to either pay him or cut him.

 

[Bill Lee]

actually the Texas grand jury only looked into ONE allegation and made their decision on that. But V, this isn't just about some "scumbag attorney" but a PATTERN. IIRC, something like 66 DIFFERENT massage therapists over about a 18 month period. He might not be an out and out rapist but the guy has a serious problem and he's in denial. Its not going to take much before he steps over THAT line too.

I fully believe that the Browns haven't dealt or cut Mayfield is that they are hearing that the NFL is going to suspend Watson for a year or more. I can't image anything less.

I've been reading a lot of tweets related to the recent NYT / Jenny Vrentas story.

There really are a lot of people who seem to just want to look the other way, give Watson a pass, especially the Browns of course. Yet this guy really represents the worst case behavior a massage therapist can face. It's extremely traumatizing from them. Many say they left the business because of their interactions with this one guy.

I'm sure they get asked for happy endings all the time, but having this guy absolutely insist that he get off as a part of the massage is not just upsetting, it's traumatizing. The consent they give is for a massage, not for sex. There is already a male-female power gradient to deal with, then the superstar NFL player vs ordinary person power gradient, and the Vrentas piece showed the employer-employee power gradient was at work too. He made the women sign NDAs provided by the Texans. In the end the women were just overpowered. If they didn't consent, he took matters into his own hands and still got his happy ending.

The Browns move is so cynical. They count on the fact that the average person won't want to dig into the details. If they do, how can you justify 66 different massage therapists? Clearly you aren't looking for a good massage, because if you were, you'd pick the best one or two or three and just use them. And for Watson to go from no sex happened to now three "consentual" acts is a crack in the armor. Were you there for a massage, or for sex?

In the end, the Browns will probably still win out. I doubt the suspension will be for more than a year. As mentioned, RLKAG and he got nothing. So, it'll be like a NBA team tanking. This season will be a write off. The loss of draft picks will be a bit of a buzz kill, but within 2-3 years it'll be as if nothing happened. Given the trajectory of the Browns, if they can be on the way up two seasons from now, they'll be OK with the way things went down. NBA tanking takes longer than that.

The Browns made the calculations and were OK with doing the deal they did. They don't care about their reputation, nor that they probably won't be able to find anyone to be the team's massage therapist while Watson is on the team. Adam Shefter's tweet shows how willing the NFL insider community is to give it all a pass. They know their back is covered.

Yet they have a ticking time bomb on their hands. The civil trials are going to be a show for them. The dude has a strong MO of how he gets off, sooner or later he'll return to form. What female Browns employee will ever want to be in a room alone with him? It could all blow up in their faces. If so, they deserve it.

 

[XLIX]

In the end, the Browns will probably still win out. I doubt the suspension will be for more than a year. As mentioned, RLKAG and he got nothing. So, it'll be like a NBA team tanking. This season will be a write off.

 

[slifersd]

whuh huh? Baker has zero leverage and why the hell would Cleveland give him any sort of new deal or extension? What’s he going to do? Threaten to stay away? Cleveland management would do cartwheels if he stayed away because then they don’t have to cut him and also wouldn’t have to pay him.

Fact is his contract is so expensive that the worst thing he could do to the Browns is show up.. That forces then to either pay him or cut him.

It was a hypothetical, in case Watson is in trouble and can't play this year (at least). Browns are obviously in a win now mode. If Watson gets suspended for the year, they would have no choice but to crawl back to Baker, since he gives them the best chance to win. That's what I meant by Browns having no leverage. If Watson can play, then sure, Baker can't do anything. But if Watson is out, Baker can demand a lot from a team that has already mortgaged their future assets and cap spaces for Watson and have no choice but to try to win right now

 

[Rob0729]

Last year when the reports were that a deal for the Dolphins to trade for Watson was a done deal, I thought it was insane because until this whole process is played out there was no way to know what would happen with Watson. No amount of due diligence could prepare for the unexpected. Granted there were still criminal charges still possible at that point (granted as more stuff comes out, criminal charges could be back on the table).

But this offseason watching multiple teams fight over each other and continue up the offer for Watson shows how little due diligence is done in the NFL when there is a possibility of getting a superstar franchise QB. Even with criminal charges off the table, trading for Watson was a huge risk. I thought there was a realistic possibility that he could be suspending for this season even before the recent allegations have come up. Now it seems like a far more likely outcome (possibly longer) with the possibility of Goodell putting Watson on the commissioner exempt list and then giving him a lengthy suspension after the cases are over. It could be conceivable that Watson doesn't even play again until 2025.

All these other teams that were fighting over themselves to get Watson only to lose out when the Browns grossly over paid for him are probably thanking their lucky stars. Sure the Panthers and Falcons are in crappy QB positions at the moment, but it could be worse to trade away all that draft capital and pay a ridiculous and player friendly deal all guaranteed to a guy who may not see the field for an exceptionally long time.

 

[Rob0729]

I've been reading a lot of tweets related to the recent NYT / Jenny Vrentas story.

There really are a lot of people who seem to just want to look the other way, give Watson a pass, especially the Browns of course. Yet this guy really represents the worst case behavior a massage therapist can face. It's extremely traumatizing from them. Many say they left the business because of their interactions with this one guy.

I'm sure they get asked for happy endings all the time, but having this guy absolutely insist that he get off as a part of the massage is not just upsetting, it's traumatizing. The consent they give is for a massage, not for sex. There is already a male-female power gradient to deal with, then the superstar NFL player vs ordinary person power gradient, and the Vrentas piece showed the employer-employee power gradient was at work too. He made the women sign NDAs provided by the Texans. In the end the women were just overpowered. If they didn't consent, he took matters into his own hands and still got his happy ending.

The Browns move is so cynical. They count on the fact that the average person won't want to dig into the details. If they do, how can you justify 66 different massage therapists? Clearly you aren't looking for a good massage, because if you were, you'd pick the best one or two or three and just use them. And for Watson to go from no sex happened to now three "consentual" acts is a crack in the armor. Were you there for a massage, or for sex?

In the end, the Browns will probably still win out. I doubt the suspension will be for more than a year. As mentioned, RLKAG and he got nothing. So, it'll be like a NBA team tanking. This season will be a write off. The loss of draft picks will be a bit of a buzz kill, but within 2-3 years it'll be as if nothing happened. Given the trajectory of the Browns, if they can be on the way up two seasons from now, they'll be OK with the way things went down. NBA tanking takes longer than that.

The Browns made the calculations and were OK with doing the deal they did. They don't care about their reputation, nor that they probably won't be able to find anyone to be the team's massage therapist while Watson is on the team. Adam Shefter's tweet shows how willing the NFL insider community is to give it all a pass. They know their back is covered.

Yet they have a ticking time bomb on their hands. The civil trials are going to be a show for them. The dude has a strong MO of how he gets off, sooner or later he'll return to form. What female Browns employee will ever want to be in a room alone with him? It could all blow up in their faces. If so, they deserve it.

Are you sure it will only be a year? With the recent news, there will be more pressure on Goodell to give him a lengthy suspension now or the far more likely outcome is to put him on the reserve commissioner's list until the cases are settled and then dole out a long suspension.


I think Watson wants the actual suspension this year and was expecting as much that it would be a long suspension based on his contract structure with only a one million base salary this year. But now, I am not sure that the suspensions don't spill into next year where he has a $46 million base.

 

[XLIX]

It was a hypothetical, in case Watson is in trouble and can't play this year (at least). Browns are obviously in a win now mode.

Watson is the key element to that "win now" mode. If he's lost for the year, then they start looking towards 2023.

If Watson gets suspended for the year, they would have no choice but to crawl back to Baker, since he gives them the best chance to win.

They don't have to crawl back to him, he's under contract. Each side would make the requisite public statement to smooth things over and pretend they don't hate each other, but that's it.

That's what I meant by Browns having no leverage. If Watson can play, then sure, Baker can't do anything. But if Watson is out, Baker can demand a lot from a team that has already mortgaged their future assets and cap spaces for Watson and have no choice but to try to win right now

Baker can't demand a single thing other than what they contractually have to pay him. He has zero leverage because holding out into the season is not even remotely an option (not to mention that if he did hold out, it would be doing the Browns a favor). He is in a contract year and he is playing for his future dollars. He may not be the brightest bulb of the bunch, but he is smart enough to know he doesn't want to mess that up.

 

[Bill Lee]

View attachment 43479

In this scenario, the "they" is Jimmy Haslam, and I wouldn't go so far to say he knows what he's doing here. He's acting like a spoiled rich guy. He had buyer's remorse after finding out that Baker Mayfield wasn't the answer so he just threw money and draft picks to get the next shiny object, he doesn't seem to care that he's a pervert.

He really pissed off many owners by fully guaranteeing such a huge contract, now every QB1 is going to demand a fully guaranteed contract. The owners used to say they could not fund such a contract (NFL rules force them to put guaranteed money into escrow) and while fatcats like Haslam have the money to do that, more than a few of the owners do not.

Haslam pissed off a bunch of owners and a bunch of fans but he doesn't seem to care, he got what he wanted and he's accepting the blowback for now at least.

Are you sure it will only be a year? With the recent news, there will be more pressure on Goodell to give him a lengthy suspension now or the far more likely outcome is to put him on the reserve commissioner's list until the cases are settled and then dole out a long suspension.


I think Watson wants the actual suspension this year and was expecting as much that it would be a long suspension based on his contract structure with only a one million base salary this year. But now, I am not sure that the suspensions don't spill into next year where he has a $46 million base.

I think the trend recently has been towards reduced punishment. I could see an announcement of "at least a one year suspension" with the Omissioner to review in one year, and if the heat dies down by then he'll be back for 2023. Ideally in the eyes of the NFL insiders the civil suits will have been dealt with one way or another in a year's time which will give him the cover to say let's move on.

Heck, I would not be that surprised he got the Rothlisburger suspension, they could very well say that's the precedent.

I don't see 22 vs 24 complaints making that much of a difference, pearl necklace or not.

 

[Ring 6]

It was a hypothetical, in case Watson is in trouble and can't play this year (at least). Browns are obviously in a win now mode. If Watson gets suspended for the year, they would have no choice but to crawl back to Baker, since he gives them the best chance to win. That's what I meant by Browns having no leverage. If Watson can play, then sure, Baker can't do anything. But if Watson is out, Baker can demand a lot from a team that has already mortgaged their future assets and cap spaces for Watson and have no choice but to try to win right now

What is he going to demand? He is making a guaranteed 19 million and no one wants him. If he holds out the browns will laugh at him and pocket the 19 mill.

 

[lancerman]

Police detective testifies she believed Deshaun Watson committed crimes

A Houston detective testified in a deposition about the police investigation of Cleveland Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson.

www.usatoday.com

 

[venecol]

Police detective testifies she believed Deshaun Watson committed crimes

A Houston detective testified in a deposition about the police investigation of Cleveland Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson.

www.usatoday.com

“I start by believing all the victims,” Baker replied. “Absolutely. Stand by that 100 percent. Anyone investigating a sex crime should start by believing the complainant. Provided defense provides something that refutes it, we're going to believe that complainant.”

"So in your world of investigation, the defendant always has to prove his innocence?" Hardin asked her.

"Yes," Baker said.

 

[patfanken]

I've been reading a lot of tweets related to the recent NYT / Jenny Vrentas story.

There really are a lot of people who seem to just want to look the other way, give Watson a pass, especially the Browns of course. Yet this guy really represents the worst case behavior a massage therapist can face. It's extremely traumatizing from them. Many say they left the business because of their interactions with this one guy.

I'm sure they get asked for happy endings all the time, but having this guy absolutely insist that he get off as a part of the massage is not just upsetting, it's traumatizing. The consent they give is for a massage, not for sex. There is already a male-female power gradient to deal with, then the superstar NFL player vs ordinary person power gradient, and the Vrentas piece showed the employer-employee power gradient was at work too. He made the women sign NDAs provided by the Texans. In the end the women were just overpowered. If they didn't consent, he took matters into his own hands and still got his happy ending.

The Browns move is so cynical. They count on the fact that the average person won't want to dig into the details. If they do, how can you justify 66 different massage therapists? Clearly you aren't looking for a good massage, because if you were, you'd pick the best one or two or three and just use them. And for Watson to go from no sex happened to now three "consentual" acts is a crack in the armor. Were you there for a massage, or for sex?

In the end, the Browns will probably still win out. I doubt the suspension will be for more than a year. As mentioned, RLKAG and he got nothing. So, it'll be like a NBA team tanking. This season will be a write off. The loss of draft picks will be a bit of a buzz kill, but within 2-3 years it'll be as if nothing happened. Given the trajectory of the Browns, if they can be on the way up two seasons from now, they'll be OK with the way things went down. NBA tanking takes longer than that.

The Browns made the calculations and were OK with doing the deal they did. They don't care about their reputation, nor that they probably won't be able to find anyone to be the team's massage therapist while Watson is on the team. Adam Shefter's tweet shows how willing the NFL insider community is to give it all a pass. They know their back is covered.

Yet they have a ticking time bomb on their hands. The civil trials are going to be a show for them. The dude has a strong MO of how he gets off, sooner or later he'll return to form. What female Browns employee will ever want to be in a room alone with him? It could all blow up in their faces. If so, they deserve it.

interesting that PFT just reported that the detective on the case, FULLY believes that there was enough CRIMINAL evidence to get an indictment from the Grand Jury. It is telling that this LEAD detective stated that there wasn't any disagreement by her group and she couldn't understand why they didn't hand down an indictment. BTW- it was also mentioned that the lead detective in this investigation did NOT testify at the hearing. And before you ask, she doesn't know why she wasn't called either.

 

[venecol]

interesting that PFT just reported that the detective on the case, FULLY believes that there was enough CRIMINAL evidence to get an indictment from the Grand Jury. It is telling that this LEAD detective stated that there wasn't any disagreement by her group and she couldn't understand why they didn't hand down an indictment. BTW- it was also mentioned that the lead detective in this investigation did NOT testify at the hearing. And before you ask, she doesn't know why she wasn't called either.

Here's what she (lead investigator) believes.

“I start by believing all the victims,” Baker replied. “Absolutely. Stand by that 100 percent. Anyone investigating a sex crime should start by believing the complainant. Provided defense provides something that refutes it, we're going to believe that complainant.”

"So in your world of investigation, the defendant always has to prove his innocence?" Hardin asked her.

"Yes," Baker said.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Here's what she (lead investigator) believes.

How does someone disagree with your post that quotes a statement of fact? Am I missing something? Did you make up the quote? What is there to disagree with?

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

I have testified as the lead agent in literally hundreds of grand juries, across the country and NEVER NOT gotten an indictment. The only people who present evidence is the prosecution, there is no defense presence at all! The Grand Jury usually consists of around 30 people, and you only need a majority to get an indictment, so no lone juror can stave off an indictment. The axiom that "you can indict a ham sandwich" is so true.

Now granted, none of my cases involved a famous/infamous person, so maybe that had an effect.

The only real reason not to have a lead investigator testify is that he/she has been "Giglioed" (Giglio v. United States | A Case Study) meaning that he/she had been found to be untruthful in testimony, report, or even an interview with IA. Once you are Giglioed, your enforcement career is over. No prosecutor will ever put you on the stand again.

So it is curious that two different grand juries decided not to indict Watson.

I hate to be a sceptic, but maybe Watson's biggest problem is that he didn't tip enough after it was over.

Watson surely has some issues, and it would have been hilarious if Kraft traded for him, but the league messed up by not suspending him last year and left this circus in place for another season. Goodell is a clown!