OT: Was Randy Moss better than Jerry “Sticky Fingers” Rice?

[jimnance]

I tried not to go back too far. Largent was pushing it but he was unbelievable. Once you get to the early 80s, 70s and 60s it gets complicated.
Personally I would take guys like Stallworth, Morgan, Carmichael, Mel Gray, Biletnikoff, Branch, Joiner, Warfield, alworth, Harold Jackson etc over a TO but the difference in eras makes the comparison impossible, plus if we are talking about the best WRs playing in an era where WRs are more important is a big plus to their argument.
One of the reasons Brady is the GOAT is that QB play today has more to do with winning than it used to.

Lance Alworth says hello.

 

[Ring 6]

Lance Alworth says hello.

I know he said it after i listed him

 

[scott99]

Haven’t read through this whole thread. Here’s my 2 cents. I think Rice is the greatest receiver of all time kinda like I look at Brady being the greatest. IMO Rice was better than Moss because he worked harder than any receiver, never took a play off, was more prepared than any receiver, and then add in great talent. He just put everything into being a great player. And the results show it.

Moss, to me, was the most TALENTED receiver ever. Nobody had the combination of speed, height, and fight (meaning fighting for the ball). Nobody highpointed the ball better than him. He loses in the discussion (IMO) because he didn’t always give his all. He basically gave up on Oakland when he was there. And didn’t exactly endear himself when he was on his way out of NE. But wow what a talent.

 

[1960Pats]

Yes but only complete morons believe Brady/Pat's are cheaters. Same for Rice & co.

Rice said that he cheated so he must be the most complete moron.

The funny thing is... after Rice made his claim about using stickum he really did have hands like glue.

 

[1960Pats]

stickum was actually against the rules. playing in the cold isnt.

Playing with gloves is another excuse for the Stickheads that doesn't work.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Personally I'll take rice. My top 5 WRs of recent times.

#1 Rice
#2 Calvin Johnson
#3 Moss
#4 Fitz
#5 TO

I know there are a lot of Modern WRs on that list but it's hard to rate guys back in the 70s to guys from the 80s and on.

If true, this would confirm what I’ve suspected for a long time: Stafford really sucks. Other than racking a lot of empty yards when the defense goes into a soft zone, he’s prettty much garbage.

 

[PatriotsNumero1Fan]

If true, this would confirm what I’ve suspected for a long time: Stafford really sucks. Other than racking a lot of empty yards when the defense goes into a soft zone, he’s prettty much garbage.

Patricia will get a first hand look at that. Lions had a 9-7 record last season but lost twice to the packers.

 

[ivanvamp]

Fun topic. I saw Rice in all his years and he was just...insanely good. But then again, so was Moss.

It's really hard to determine the best 5 years of these guys' careers, because they both had so many great ones. Here's my best shot at pointing out numbers at these guys' respective peaks:

Rice
1989: 16 g, 82 rec, 1483 yds, 18.1 ypc, 17 td, 18 AV
1995: 16 g, 122 rec, 1848 yds, 15.1 ypc, 15 td, 19 AV
1987: 12 g, 65 rec, 1078 yds, 16.6 ypc, 22 td, 14 AV
1993: 16 g, 98 rec, 1503 yds, 15.3 ypc, 15 td, 20 AV
1990: 16 g, 100 rec, 1502 yds, 15.0 ypc, 13 td, 13 AV

Moss
2007: 16 g, 98 rec, 1493 yds, 15.2 ypc, 23 td, 20 AV
2003: 16 g, 111 rec, 1632 yds, 14.7 ypc, 17 td, 17 AV
1998: 16 g, 69 rec, 1313 yds, 19.0 ypc, 17 td, 17 AV
2000: 16 g, 77 rec, 1437 yds, 18.7 ypc, 15 td, 17 AV
1999: 16 g, 80 rec, 1413 yds, 17.7 ypc, 11 td, 15 AV

Hard to say which prime was better statistically. I guess I'd say Rice. But now look and see who the QBs were that were throwing to them in those years:

Rice
1989: Joe Montana (33 yo)
1995: Steve Young (34 yo)
1987: Joe Montana (31 yo)
1993: Steve Young (32 yo)
1990: Joe Montana (34 yo)

Moss
2007: Tom Brady (30 yo)
2003: Daunte Culpepper (26 yo)
1998: Randall Cunningham (35 yo)
2000: Daunte Culpepper (23 yo)
1999: Randall Cunningham (36 yo), Jeff George (32 yo)

Of their peak years, Rice had two HOF quarterbacks throwing him the ball, but Moss had the GOAT plus two guys who did make pro bowls, but weren't HOF level quarterbacks.

Here's one thing we should consider. Culpepper came into the NFL and had Randy Moss as his #1 WR. He put up three unbelievable seasons out of five during the time Moss was there. In 2004, Moss' last year with Minnesota, Culpepper had this passing stat line:

379-548 (69.2%), 4747 yds, 39 td, 11 int, 110.9 rating

And then in 2005, after Moss left, here was Culpepper's stat line:

139-216 (64.4%), 1564 yds, 6 td, 12 int, 72.0 rating

Now Culpepper only played 7 games that year. But for the rest of his career (which was injury-plagued), without Moss to throw to, he put up a combined 59% completion, 20 td, and 32 interceptions, with a 71.7 rating.

It seems like Moss made a HUGE difference in Culpepper's career, while Montana and Young were successful anyway.

 

[Ring 6]

If true, this would confirm what I’ve suspected for a long time: Stafford really sucks. Other than racking a lot of empty yards when the defense goes into a soft zone, he’s prettty much garbage.

Stanford’s numbers are pretty much the same with and without Calvin interestingly.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Fun topic. I saw Rice in all his years and he was just...insanely good. But then again, so was Moss.

It's really hard to determine the best 5 years of these guys' careers, because they both had so many great ones. Here's my best shot at pointing out numbers at these guys' respective peaks:

Rice
1989: 16 g, 82 rec, 1483 yds, 18.1 ypc, 17 td, 18 AV
1995: 16 g, 122 rec, 1848 yds, 15.1 ypc, 15 td, 19 AV
1987: 12 g, 65 rec, 1078 yds, 16.6 ypc, 22 td, 14 AV
1993: 16 g, 98 rec, 1503 yds, 15.3 ypc, 15 td, 20 AV
1990: 16 g, 100 rec, 1502 yds, 15.0 ypc, 13 td, 13 AV

Moss
2007: 16 g, 98 rec, 1493 yds, 15.2 ypc, 23 td, 20 AV
2003: 16 g, 111 rec, 1632 yds, 14.7 ypc, 17 td, 17 AV
1998: 16 g, 69 rec, 1313 yds, 19.0 ypc, 17 td, 17 AV
2000: 16 g, 77 rec, 1437 yds, 18.7 ypc, 15 td, 17 AV
1999: 16 g, 80 rec, 1413 yds, 17.7 ypc, 11 td, 15 AV

Hard to say which prime was better statistically. I guess I'd say Rice. But now look and see who the QBs were that were throwing to them in those years:

Rice
1989: Joe Montana (33 yo)
1995: Steve Young (34 yo)
1987: Joe Montana (31 yo)
1993: Steve Young (32 yo)
1990: Joe Montana (34 yo)

Moss
2007: Tom Brady (30 yo)
2003: Daunte Culpepper (26 yo)
1998: Randall Cunningham (35 yo)
2000: Daunte Culpepper (23 yo)
1999: Randall Cunningham (36 yo), Jeff George (32 yo)

Of their peak years, Rice had two HOF quarterbacks throwing him the ball, but Moss had the GOAT plus two guys who did make pro bowls, but weren't HOF level quarterbacks.

Here's one thing we should consider. Culpepper came into the NFL and had Randy Moss as his #1 WR. He put up three unbelievable seasons out of five during the time Moss was there. In 2004, Moss' last year with Minnesota, Culpepper had this passing stat line:

379-548 (69.2%), 4747 yds, 39 td, 11 int, 110.9 rating

And then in 2005, after Moss left, here was Culpepper's stat line:

139-216 (64.4%), 1564 yds, 6 td, 12 int, 72.0 rating

Now Culpepper only played 7 games that year. But for the rest of his career (which was injury-plagued), without Moss to throw to, he put up a combined 59% completion, 20 td, and 32 interceptions, with a 71.7 rating.

It seems like Moss made a HUGE difference in Culpepper's career, while Montana and Young were successful anyway.

Yea in 05 Culpepper blew out his ACL so he only played a handful of games. He was horrible. Then he had that boat cruise issue. Brad Johnson came in and almost got them in the playoffs.

No question Moss made Culpepper.

I bet the 08 Pats would have had a losing record if not for Randy. Big target for Cassel and drew attention which opened up the running game and other receivers to be open.

 

[Froob]

Yea in 05 Culpepper blew out his ACL so he only played a handful of games. He was horrible. Then he had that boat cruise issue. Brad Johnson came in and almost got them in the playoffs.

No question Moss made Culpepper.

I bet the 08 Pats would have had a losing record if not for Randy

08 was a real shame, missed a big year of Moss and Welker’s prime. Welker and Brady weren’t at their best again til 2011.

 

[Kontradiction]

08 was a real shame, missed a big year of Moss and Welker’s prime. Welker and Brady weren’t at their best again til 2011.

Patriots are Super Bowl champions without a doubt if Brady is healthy that year and probably end up 15-1 (still losing the wildcat game where they basically got blindsided).

 

[Ian]

Lol at giving Ian a disagree.

I took it as since I had an "Agree" - that was his cue to "disagree" based on my "agree to disagree" comment. It's all good as long as the end result is positive.

Unfortunately Ian doesn’t have enough time to really participate in the football talk around here because he usually offers thoughtful unbiased opinions. Id imagine the dislike/disagrees are more related to when he does get the chance to opine.

Yes, I have a different job compared to a few years ago that's become increasingly more demanding and has made things a little difficult in terms of the amount of free time I've had. Not to mention some additional freelance work I've had to do...it's a challenge. But we all work - so I'm not going to whine. Just trying to keep moving forward

As far as the ratings - those aren't a big deal and I know there are still some out there who believe dislikes, disagrees affect people negatively. "Likes", "Agrees", "Winner", "Funny", "Love","Useful" are positive ratings. "Dislike" and "Disagree" are neutral and have a zero rating. But after we had issues with people spamming them, I just set them at zero to deter people from trying to affect people's totals. After all, I'm happy to let them waste their time if they think they're ruining anyone's day - although unfortunately they end up hurting their own character by doing so. Fortunately, that hasn't happened much in quite a while.

Moving on, regarding Moss, this is such an odd situation. Rice the player was tremendous and his work ethic was one of the more storied ones around the league and he was extremely well-respected. But since retiring, Rice the person has sort of sabotaged the legacy he built on the field, which has certainly hurt him in terms of how he's currently viewed by fans.

Oddly enough, Moss the person was someone very few liked during the early part of his career with the way he carried himself on the field and his comments off of it. But coming to New England certainly changed that persona and it was obvious when he left here that he learned from it. He's carried it into the broadcasting world and it feels like he's actually become even more well-liked than ever.

But setting my dislike for Rice the person aside, I think you have to give the edge to Rice in terms of his overall body of work and the records he set. Granted, the "stick-em" thing will be something that hangs over him but there have likely been plenty of guys around the league we don't even know about who probably put extra on their gloves and still couldn't catch the football. Things like creating separation, body control, fighting through defenders, etc. are things that great receivers do and only a handful do it consistently well over the course of a long career. Moss was exciting, but Rice was consistent game-in-game out. Randy did that after arriving here and toward the latter part of his career, but Rice did it the entire time. So I would say that would have to give him the edge. Or at least that would be my two cents

 

[jimnance]

One important thing about Rice that I didn't see mentioned was his work ethic and incredible conditioning.
His off-season workouts were legendary.
A lot of top NFL players around the league begged Rice to let them join the workouts. Many couldn't handle it. He ran those hills and mountains of Northern California, miles at a time, with a backpack full of weights.
He was w/o question one of the alltime most-conditioned players in the NFL.
And it showed on the field.
He was also an excellent blocker when called upon.

 

[Froob]

Patriots are Super Bowl champions without a doubt if Brady is healthy that year and probably end up 15-1 (still losing the wildcat game where they basically got blindsided).

Maybe, that defense got a lot worse. Deltha O’Neal had an all time bad season. Good chance they win the whole thing though because Steelers would have blown it.

 

[Ring 6]

I took it as since I had an "Agree" - that was his cue to "disagree" based on my "agree to disagree" comment. It's all good as long as the end result is positive.


Yes, I have a different job compared to a few years ago that's become increasingly more demanding and has made things a little difficult in terms of the amount of free time I've had. Not to mention some additional freelance work I've had to do...it's a challenge. But we all work - so I'm not going to whine. Just trying to keep moving forward

As far as the ratings - those aren't a big deal and I know there are still some out there who believe dislikes, disagrees affect people negatively. "Likes", "Agrees", "Winner", "Funny", "Love","Useful" are positive ratings. "Dislike" and "Disagree" are neutral and have a zero rating. But after we had issues with people spamming them, I just set them at zero to deter people from trying to affect people's totals. After all, I'm happy to let them waste their time if they think they're ruining anyone's day - although unfortunately they end up hurting their own character by doing so. Fortunately, that hasn't happened much in quite a while.

Moving on, regarding Moss, this is such an odd situation. Rice the player was tremendous and his work ethic was one of the more storied ones around the league and he was extremely well-respected. But since retiring, Rice the person has sort of sabotaged the legacy he built on the field, which has certainly hurt him in terms of how he's currently viewed by fans.

Oddly enough, Moss the person was someone very few liked during the early part of his career with the way he carried himself on the field and his comments off of it. But coming to New England certainly changed that persona and it was obvious when he left here that he learned from it. He's carried it into the broadcasting world and it feels like he's actually become even more well-liked than ever.

But setting my dislike for Rice the person aside, I think you have to give the edge to Rice in terms of his overall body of work and the records he set. Granted, the "stick-em" thing will be something that hangs over him but there have likely been plenty of guys around the league we don't even know about who probably put extra on their gloves and still couldn't catch the football. Things like creating separation, body control, fighting through defenders, etc. are things that great receivers do and only a handful do it consistently well over the course of a long career. Moss was exciting, but Rice was consistent game-in-game out. Randy did that after arriving here and toward the latter part of his career, but Rice did it the entire time. So I would say that would have to give him the edge. Or at least that would be my two cents

See what I mean about you adding great insight?

 

[primetime]

Yea in 05 Culpepper blew out his ACL so he only played a handful of games. He was horrible. Then he had that boat cruise issue. Brad Johnson came in and almost got them in the playoffs.

No question Moss made Culpepper.

I bet the 08 Pats would have had a losing record if not for Randy. Big target for Cassel and drew attention which opened up the running game and other receivers to be open.

Moss missed a few games in Culpepper's best season, though, and was actually hobbled for a portion of the year. Culpepper was better at the top of his career than people remember, but it lasted such a short time because of the injury and how badly he botched the recovery from it that severely shortened his career.

 

[jimnance]

I know he said it after i listed him

Lol, sorry man didn't see it. But in my defense you didnt have him in caps or first and last name like everyone else.
Plus, I got old eyes.

 

[Joker]

I used to be a monstrous Dolphin hater...way back when....the only phraudphin I could never ramp up a healthy frothing hatred for was Paul Warfield. Man, that cat was smoooove. Cleveland let him get away to the Phins back in the day, proving that Cleveland was ,indeed, the prototype for today's New York Jetes

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

If I could watch one of them live for one game, the answer is Moss.

If I could draft either one of them and get their exact careers, including longevity, the answer is Rice.

If my team could have either one for one peak season, it could go either way.

One more thing: it’s crazy to say Moss had more potential and may have been greater but for his attitude, work ethic, etc. The man played at a high level for about 12 seasons. Though he had incredible hands, size, and coordination, it was his speed (to go along with those other attributes) that made him so incredible, and speed-reliant receivers rarely play into their mid 30s. Moss had the second most touchdowns and fourth most yards of any receiver, ever. Wasted potential? Yeeeesh...

Meanwhile, Rice had a 1,200 yard season at age FORTY. It’s insane how often people compare Moss to Rice and just think Moss should have “been more dedicated to the game” or whatever as if he could have just done the same thing had he worked harder. The length of and consistency of Rice’s career is superhuman and shouldn’t really be a measuring stick...it’s just an incredible accomplishment that may never be repeated. He also had a body type and playing style that allowed him to adapt his game better. I don’t care how great Rice’s work ethic and dedication were...if he had Randy Moss’s tall, skinny body type, he wouldn’t have played into his 40s either. Moss was born to be a deep threat and was the greatest deep threat ever, but find me another 6’5” skinny guy whose body was designed like Moss who could play into his mid-late 30s.