OT: The Buffalo Bills on borrowed time in western NY and the AFC East?

[QuiGon]

28th in the league in attendance???!! You're looking at capacity!! They SELL OUT every freakin' game!

Bullcrap. They didn't even sell out the playoff game against Houston with the 35 point comeback. They went to the Super Bowl that year and couldn't even sell out a playoff game..!!

 

[DaBruinz]

Well, if you are going to throw out insults, I've got no use for discussing this any further for you. I didn't even read your entire post (just like I stopped reading this post after the chumly crack) because you were addressing someone else's post. I just saw my name and read that sentence and responded accordingly.

If you want to discuss issues without the attitude, I am more than happy to debate with you. Otherwise, we are done.

Typical. You intentionally misquote a person and then you run and hide behind excuses. Calling you chumly is like calling you BRO or DUDE. Its not an insult. If you choose to take it as such, that is your problem.

BTW, you were the one who said THIS:

"Kodak's headquarters in Rochester which is a little under 100 miles away. Buffalo is not nearly the business center as most other NFL cities."

And, then, later you went on to say"

Never said anything about naming rights. I am talking luxury boxes and, to a smaller extent, club seats. I agree Wilson could get a major sponsor to name the stadium very easily. I think the average price for a luxury box for Gillette Stadium is like $150k a year and upwards to $300k (don't quote me on that). The Pats have 86 luxury suites. Do you really think Buffalo can get 86 companies to shell out $100-300k a year to pay for a luxury box?

The post your responded to, which had YOUR NAME in it, you did not fully quote, so yes, I will take issue with how you quoted me. Particularly since everything after your name dealt with your ramblings. And I felt that my response to QuiGon as well as to you in the same post was appropriate because it was the same angle of the topic.

 

[upstater1]

Bullcrap. They didn't even sell out the playoff game against Houston with the 35 point comeback. They went to the Super Bowl that year and couldn't even sell out a playoff game..!!

You went back how many years for that one? Is that the best you can do? Last december's black out was the first one in 12 years. But hey, you've proven to be a master at getting thing wrong. I'm not expecting you to get anything right anytime soon.

 

[Rob0729]

One, the Canadian dollar is not considerably less than the American. It's right on par, 100%. Second, when you're looking at average ticket price, you have to take into account all the extra seats, because that dilutes the price of tickets.

Greenwich, Ct. is the richest town in the state. But it doesn't have the highest property values. Why? It's bigger than some of the small towns, and the cheap homes dilute the average price of property. But let me tell you, you won't find bigger or better homes in the state than you'll find in Greenwich.

There are plenty of stadiums that have as much or more capacity as Ralph Wilson, but the tickets are higher. The Redskins, Jets, Giants, Dolphins, Broncos, Chiefs, and Panthers all play in stadiums larger than Ralph Wilson Stadium, but none are the lowest priced tickets (in fact some of them have some of the highest average price tickets.

Ralph Wilson stadium's capacity is 73,967 (which is only about 6,000 more seats than Gillette 68,000 capacity, not the 15,000 you state). The county made them reduce their capacity in 1998 when they renewed their lease which means that it is probable that part of the leasing agreement is that the county buys all the unused tickets so there is no blackout. I know Oakland has (had) that agreement with the Raiders because Al Davis tried to use that point in trying to get out of his lease about a decade ago.

 

[Rob0729]

Typical. You intentionally misquote a person and then you run and hide behind excuses.

I'm not running and hiding. I just have no use to get into a pissing contest with you.

Believe whatever you want to believe though.

 

[upstater1]

They had to cut, traded, or refused to resign four or five starters (Clements, Fletcher, McGahee, and Spikes) to make deals. Besides, Langston Walker got a $5 million bonus and Derrick Dockery is getting $18 million over his first three years. That is big money for unaccomplished players, but not huge money in this market. You are confusing them overpaying for players and them overpaying for marquee players.

Add up the unpfront money. They also signed their own guys to big contracts. They shelled out a lot. How do you think Takeo Spikes and London Fletcher ended up in Buffalo in the first place? Through big FA contracts with lots of upfront $$$.

If you mean sell out only being just under 90% full on average per game, yes they have sold out. Just because the Bills sell out a game or two a year doesn't mean they sell out every game. I posted the facts. They average about 89-90% of capacity per game virtually every year. That isn't selling out.

You're using a bogus ESPN stat that measures ticket sold against stadium capacity. God forbid England ever gets a team in Wembley. You'll be complaining about their 80% filling of the stadium. Meanwhile, they'll lead the NFL in actual attendance. Look, here's a fact for you: until last winter, the Bills had SOLD OUT every game for many many years. That's a fact. The games were never blacked out, they were always on TV. Just because they didn't fill the stadium doesn't mean they didn't sell out, especially since it's IMPOSSIBLE for the Bills to fill the stadium, since by rule they are not allowed to make 80,000 tickets available. Like Jacksonville, they cordon off the massive stadium to make sellouts possible.

They are top 10 in attendance. Why are you knocking this?

Hockey and football are two different sports. Hockey doesn't have a fraction the size of the audience. The most successful NHL team doesn't have nearly the fan base of the least successful NFL team. If the Bills had the popularity of the Sabre, they would go under.

LOL, now you're making my point. I can't believe I'm arguing with you. The Sabres make a lot more from Buffalo fans than the Bills do. What's your argument here? The Sabres sold out 52 games, 19,000 seats, at $60 a pop. What's your argument again? That hockey isn't as popular? So, let's say I agree with you (I do). Shouldn't that mean that the Bills drawing power/ticket potential is a lot higher than the Sabres?

Yes!! That's what I've been saying to you!!

 

[upstater1]

No, I just recognize his threats as little more than political driver meant to win brownie points with the locals back home...
So you have absolutely no clue what the deal was the Jets were going after in NY. That's not my fault, is it?
It's an empty threat. Even if we assume one senator could force this through (highly unlikely given the fact that other owners have their own senators working for them), how exactly would it matter..? The last time someone attacked the NFL on anti-trust grounds was a little group called the USFL. They won a settlement in the amount of one whole dollar.

Man you're so mixed up. Schumer is chair of the committee. He controls the agenda. And now you're comparing the USFL to the Senate of the United States? What kind of argument is that? The NFL will triumph over the US government? LOL!!! Dude, the anti-trust laws are about as good as the whims of whatever politician is in control. Those laws are anti-competitive laws that protect the NFL. That's why the USFL lost, because the US government recognizes the NFL's right to set up a monolpoly of sorts. But that privilege can easily be taken away. Why do you think George Mitchell is being allowed to peek under every rock in baseball?

 

[DaBruinz]

I'm not running and hiding. I just have no use to get into a pissing contest with you.

Believe whatever you want to believe though.

No one is asking you to get into a pissing contest. But the least you could do is read all that is addressed to you instead of quoting just bits and pieces as you did with me.

Is that really to much to ask of YOU? If it is, please tell us so that everyone can ignore your "arguments" in the future.

 

[upstater1]

Um, that's kind of the whole point of the post that started this thread...

Could you please pay better attention if you plan to post in these forums..?

Well, you can't read buddy. The point of the thread is, are the Bills going to move? If you think the Bills are going to move to LA, you lose. The owners are NOT going to allow that. I thought this thread was about the Bills moving somewhere else. (I just checked, I'm right, you're wrong). No one is going to allow the next owner of the Bills to move to LA and double the value of his franchise.

 

[Rob0729]

No one is asking you to get into a pissing contest. But the least you could do is read all that is addressed to you instead of quoting just bits and pieces as you did with me.

Is that really to much to ask of YOU? If it is, please tell us so that everyone can ignore your "arguments" in the future.

Again, I didn't read the entire post. I just read the one piece that you addressed me directly. I am sorry that I didn't hang on your every word for every post while reading at midnight last night. I wouldn't have even read the post at all last night if my name didn't catch my eye because you were not responding to my post.

Where have I not addressed virtually every rebuttal given to me? I have even admitted I was wrong when people proved me wrong. I am not afraid to admit I am wrong.

If you want to address me with some respect, I will respond to you. Otherwise, I could care less with dealing with you. I have not disrespected you in anyway. Show me the same courtesy.

 

[upstater1]

There are plenty of stadiums that have as much or more capacity as Ralph Wilson, but the tickets are higher. The Redskins, Jets, Giants, Dolphins, Broncos, Chiefs, and Panthers all play in stadiums larger than Ralph Wilson Stadium, but none are the lowest priced tickets (in fact some of them have some of the highest average price tickets.

Ralph Wilson stadium's capacity is 73,967 (which is only about 6,000 more seats than Gillette 68,000 capacity, not the 15,000 you state). The county made them reduce their capacity in 1998 when they renewed their lease which means that it is probable that part of the leasing agreement is that the county buys all the unused tickets so there is no blackout. I know Oakland has (had) that agreement with the Raiders because Al Davis tried to use that point in trying to get out of his lease about a decade ago.

No, the county ain't buying squat. You keep coming up with bogus facts, and that's another one for you. It's like you can't help yourself just making **** up.

You think they ripped out seats from their 80,000 seat capacity? I can tell you they didn't. I see those seats under a tarp at every game I've been to. The fact that they don't sell those seats doesn't mean they're out of there. That's the point I was making.

What do you care anyway if they have extra capacity? The only important factor should be tickets sold, but instead you invent BS stats to get around the fact that the Bills are toward the top of the league in tickets sold.

Buffalo usually ranks 8th or 9th in terms of attendance, with an average of 72,000 tickets sold. That's despite the team's abysmal record on the field. Last year their 4,000 dip in tickets sold coincided with the fact that they had so many home games in December. No surprise there given the weather. As anyone who went to the Patriots game in December of 05 can tell you, that's nasty nasty weather, and even Patriots fans aren't coming out for that.

 

[Rob0729]

Add up the unpfront money. They also signed their own guys to big contracts. They shelled out a lot. How do you think Takeo Spikes and London Fletcher ended up in Buffalo in the first place? Through big FA contracts with lots of upfront $$$.

Who did they resign? Anthony Thomas? Chris Kelsay? They didn't resign any players comanding huge salaries.

You're using a bogus ESPN stat that measures ticket sold against stadium capacity. God forbid England ever gets a team in Wembley. You'll be complaining about their 80% filling of the stadium. Meanwhile, they'll lead the NFL in actual attendance. Look, here's a fact for you: until last winter, the Bills had SOLD OUT every game for many many years. That's a fact. The games were never blacked out, they were always on TV. Just because they didn't fill the stadium doesn't mean they didn't sell out, especially since it's IMPOSSIBLE for the Bills to fill the stadium, since by rule they are not allowed to make 80,000 tickets available. Like Jacksonville, they cordon off the massive stadium to make sellouts possible.

Does selling tickets to Erie County probably at a discounted rate count? Because I have a feeling that is how they sell out every week. Funny, I am the only one bringing anything documented and you are trashing it as bogus. Where is your proof?

They are top 10 in attendance. Why are you knocking this?

Not knocking it. They are also dead last in average ticket sales. I think

LOL, now you're making my point. I can't believe I'm arguing with you. The Sabres make a lot more from Buffalo fans than the Bills do. What's your argument here? The Sabres sold out 52 games, 19,000 seats, at $60 a pop. What's your argument again? That hockey isn't as popular? So, let's say I agree with you (I do). Shouldn't that mean that the Bills drawing power/ticket potential is a lot higher than the Sabres?

Yes!! That's what I've been saying to you!!

Oh, I didn't know the Sabres had a rule that you can only attend one game a season. If I knew that then I wouldn't have said anything. 52 home games times 19,000 means that 988,000 different people went to a Sabres game last year or a third of Buffalo's population.

Again, hockey isn't as popular. And yes, the Bills should be drawing as much power/ticket potential as the Sabres. You have just proven that the Bills fans support isn't nearly as good as you make it out to be, not mine. If the Bills can't sell out their stadium every game (which you have yet to prove they do) at a lower ticket price, maybe the Bills aren't as popular or have enough fan support as you claim.

 

[QuiGon]

You went back how many years for that one?

Yeah, you got me there... I did have to go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay far back to remember a time when the Bills actually mattered a damn.... Good point.... it has been practically forever since anyone cared anything about the Bills...

Is that the best you can do? Last december's black out was the first one in 12 years. But hey, you've proven to be a master at getting thing wrong. I'm not expecting you to get anything right anytime soon.

If the Bills ownership group wanted to move to L.A., Cmsr. Goodell would help pack the moving vans. Your blind homerism does nothing to change that.

 

[Rob0729]

No, the county ain't buying squat. You keep coming up with bogus facts, and that's another one for you. It's like you can't help yourself just making **** up.

You think they ripped out seats from their 80,000 seat capacity? I can tell you they didn't. I see those seats under a tarp at every game I've been to. The fact that they don't sell those seats doesn't mean they're out of there. That's the point I was making.

What do you care anyway if they have extra capacity? The only important factor should be tickets sold, but instead you invent BS stats to get around the fact that the Bills are toward the top of the league in tickets sold.

Buffalo usually ranks 8th or 9th in terms of attendance, with an average of 72,000 tickets sold. That's despite the team's abysmal record on the field. Last year their 4,000 dip in tickets sold coincided with the fact that they had so many home games in December. No surprise there given the weather. As anyone who went to the Patriots game in December of 05 can tell you, that's nasty nasty weather, and even Patriots fans aren't coming out for that.

I didn't say the county were definitely buying the tickets. I theorized that they did. I never portrayed it as facts. I never knew that when you say something is "probably" is a fact.

The only bogus facts seem to becoming from you. You said the Bills capacity was 15,000 more than the Patriots, but since 1998 (actually 2002 when Gillette opened) that hasn't been the case. You might want to get your facts straight. Those seats under the tarp are not counted in capacity figures nor can they be used.

And I think I am done talking about the Bills' stadium. We have talk far too long about Ralph Wilson stadium for patriots board.

 

[QuiGon]

Man you're so mixed up. Schumer is chair of the committee. He controls the agenda. And now you're comparing the USFL to the Senate of the United States? What kind of argument is that? The NFL will triumph over the US government?

I notice you never actually answered my question. You rant and rave but never address the point... So thank you for proving my point.

But that privilege can easily be taken away. Why do you think George Mitchell is being allowed to peek under every rock in baseball?

Oh my... talk about a straw man argument...

 

[QuiGon]

Well, you can't read buddy. The point of the thread is, are the Bills going to move?

The very first post in this thread says "Once Ralph dies I expect the team to move to California - The Anaheim Bills?"

So who's the one that can't read...?

If you think the Bills are going to move to LA, you lose.

The Bills are near the top of a short list of teams that could very easily be playing in L.A. over the next few years. The fact that you are too moronic to realize this does not change that fact.

The owners are NOT going to allow that. I thought this thread was about the Bills moving somewhere else. (I just checked, I'm right, you're wrong).

The very first post in this thread says "Once Ralph dies I expect the team to move to California - The Anaheim Bills?"

So who's the one that can't read...?

No one is going to allow the next owner of the Bills to move to LA and double the value of his franchise.

Yeah... the last thing the league would ever want would be to double the value of one of their franchises....

 

[QuiGon]

And I think I am done talking about the Bills' stadium. We have talk far too long about Ralph Wilson stadium for patriots board.

Me too and I agree. Upstater is just a clueless moron simply not interested in anything beyond his blind homerism. There's nothing any of us in here can do to change that....

 

[DaBruinz]

Who did they resign? Anthony Thomas? Chris Kelsay? They didn't resign any players comanding huge salaries.

Actually, they didn't resign their aging vets who were commanding huge salaries. However, they did re-sign Aaron Schobel last September. And Kelsay being signed is a big deal. They also signed Jason Peters to a long term deal.

Oh, I didn't know the Sabres had a rule that you can only attend one game a season. If I knew that then I wouldn't have said anything. 52 home games times 19,000 means that 988,000 different people went to a Sabres game last year or a third of Buffalo's population.

Again, hockey isn't as popular. And yes, the Bills should be drawing as much power/ticket potential as the Sabres. You have just proven that the Bills fans support isn't nearly as good as you make it out to be, not mine. If the Bills can't sell out their stadium every game (which you have yet to prove they do) at a lower ticket price, maybe the Bills aren't as popular or have enough fan support as you claim.

While hockey isn't as popular as football, you're math is off. Hockey teams only play 41 home games unless you are counting pre-season games, but there aren't 11 home pre-season games in hockey.

You keep claiming that the Bills fan support isn't there but the numbers just don't support your claims. With 41 home games, the Sabres have the ability to get more attendees just by virtue of simple math. 41*19000 = 779,000. The Bills stadium of 73,000*8 = 534,000. Even at 80,000, if they were allowed to sell that many seats, they would only get to 640,000.

BTW, why is it that you insist on taking ESPN's numbers as GOSPEL? Did you stop to think that they might be wrong? As was mentioned, Buffalo's capacity isn't 80,000. Its 73K+. If that is the case, then the % that ESPN is reporting is wrong and its closer to 90% than to 84.5%.

 

[DaBruinz]

Me too and I agree. Upstater is just a clueless moron simply not interested in anything beyond his blind homerism. There's nothing any of us in here can do to change that....

How can it be "blind homerism" when Upstarter1is a Pats fan? Homerism generally implies that the person is a FAN of the team in question and refuses to look at reality. The team in question is the Bills so, as a Pats fan, he can't be a homer on this topic.

 

[QuiGon]

How can it be "blind homerism" when Upstarter1is a Pats fan? Homerism generally implies that the person is a FAN of the team in question and refuses to look at reality. The team in question is the Bills so, as a Pats fan, he can't be a homer on this topic.

Well then I stand corrected... he's an idiot, but not a homer