OT: The Buffalo Bills on borrowed time in western NY and the AFC East?

[Rob0729]

You brought up this argument before. I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now. One of the reasons I don't buy it is that, as someone else mentioned, there are some 3 million people within 60 miles of Buffalo. Granted, that isn't the 8 million of NYC and New Jersey, but its not chump change either.

If it was just Buffalo, then I would agree with you, but recently other small market teams like Jacksonville and Indy have expressed such concerns.

ALL the things that you mentioned is a direct result of the Bills lack of trying to get corporate sponsors. This idea that there isn't enough corporate presence in Northern NY is bunk. There are TONS of companies up in that area. And they do draw people from across the border as well. There is no reason they can't draw on those companies for sponsorship.

Also, the TV contract pays for nearly the entire salary of teams. There is additional revenue that is divided up to the "small market teams". That was what the big bru-ha-ha was about before. Ralph Wilson crying poverty while sitting on his arse and not marketing his team the way he could be.

Also, considering that there are fans all over the country, now, there are fans of every team that travel once or twice a year to see their team. ANd they travel cross country to do it. And many stadiums are sold out, year after year. Buffalo may not be, but, again, that goes back to the lack of effective marketing by the team.

Again, although Wilson is the most vocal and crazy, there has been other teams that have aligned themselves with Buffalo and Cincy with their concerns of the big market vs. small market teams. There are several small market teams concerned about this.

I agree that Wilson doesn't do nearly enough to maximize his revenues and I have said as much in the past, but the cap has been jumping quite abit the last few years and the signing bonuses along with it. What players are getting in their first three years of their deals are growing to gargantuan proportions and small market team will just not have enough cash on hand to compete.

I do think there is a problem for small market teams, but I also think the league will eventually address these problem. I just don't think a lot of the big market teams will give concessions until the problem gets too big to ignore. They already gave up a lot in the new CBA and they are going to wait until the last possible time to give up more. Until then a lot of small market teams will probably have to pass on the marquee free agents because they won't have the cash on hand.

 

[patfanken]

The Bills marketing would be much better if they included the Toronto area. How far is Buffalo from Toronto? I bet its less than 150miles

Gee the internet is wonderful I could answer my own question...and I was right. The distance to Toronto is ONLY 100miles. Thats well within a marketing area for Buffalo. The Pats market from Hartford CT to Portland ME a much larger area.

BOTTOM LINE if Buffalo wants to cry poor mouth because they don't have enough revenue, then they only have THEMSELVES to blame.

 

[Rob0729]

If you think that the Buffalo fans aren't willing to shell out the money, your fooling yourself. They have a waiting list for season tickets just like the Pats do. I highly doubt that 2/3 of the season ticket holders AND the current waiting list would turn down their tickets if there was a $10 increase per ticket across the board.

In 2006, Buffalo was dead last in stadium capacity with an average of 84.5% of the tickets per game sold. In 2005, they were 28th with 89.9% of the tickets sold. In 2004, they were 28th again with 89.7%. In 2003, they had a good year with 91.2% being still 28th in the league in attendance. In 2002 with all the hype with Bledsoe, they were 29th in the league with 85.6% capacity (also eventhough they have about 15,000 more seats they only averaged 30 more people per game in the stands than the Pats had that year).

In contrast, the Pats have had over 100% capacity (SRO tickets count as the overage) during the whole period. I really don't think the Pats and Bills fan base is very comparable as far as attending the game at all.

There is a certain segment of the Bills fans that would pay more to go to the game, but there is a whole bunch who won't. Besides, it is a catch 22. Wilson raises the ticket price and he risks selling out even fewer games which means more local blackouts and TV revenue is lost and the fan base dwindles.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/attendance?sort=home_perc&year=2006
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/attendance?sort=home_perc&year=2006
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/attendance?sort=home_perc&year=2004

 

[DaBruinz]

It will be like the Wrigley family and the Cubs... when the old man dies, his inheritors can't afford to keep the team and pay the inheritance taxes, so they will have to sell...

And with one of the oldest stadiums in the league, no prospects for a new one on the horizon and a very small market, you're darn right the new owners will probably pick 'em up and move 'em out.

Considering that Wilson could have financed a new stadium at any time over the last 30 years and the City of Orchard Park would have given him a break on the taxes, there is no excuse for him to NOT have built a new stadium. And he already has enough room to build the new stadium next to the old one and not put a dent in the parking.

Wilson has the money to get a new stadium built and if he wasn't such an egotistical snob, he'd work to get naming rights on the stadium.

OH, and to Rob, just because a place doesn't have its corporate headquarters in a particular city, doesn't mean they won't get the naming rights.

A perfect example is the new Lucas Oil Stadium for the Colts. Their corporate HQ is in Corona, CA. Or the Staples Center. Their corporate HQ is in Framingham, MA.

So, if companies are willing to put naming rights on facilities not even CLOSE to the corporate HQ, why wouldn't they pay for luxury boxes near major facilities? The answer is they WOULD pay. And many do.

 

[Rob0729]

Gee the internet is wonderful I could answer my own question...and I was right. The distance to Toronto is ONLY 100miles. Thats well within a marketing area for Buffalo. The Pats market from Hartford CT to Portland ME a much larger area.

BOTTOM LINE if Buffalo wants to cry poor mouth because they don't have enough revenue, then they only have THEMSELVES to blame.

I agree the Bills aren't maximizing their revenue, but their problem is not unique to them. Other teams are or will have trouble with signing bonuses because their revenues will not allow them to go on the spending spree the Pats did this year or Washington does a lot. I still think this will be corrected, but it is a bigger problem than people want to admit.

 

[DaBruinz]

If it was just Buffalo, then I would agree with you, but recently other small market teams like Jacksonville and Indy have expressed such concerns.

Indy expressed their concerns PRIOR to their new stadium getting approved and the licensing rights going to Lucas Oil.

As for Buffalo and Jacksonville, you keep naming two of the teams that are the absolute WORST in terms of spending on advertising. Gee, did you ever stop to think about the correlation there?

[/quote]

The small market teams didn't give up squat. They are getting even MORE funding from the division of revenue. Funding they aren't earning and that they should be.

 

[unoriginal]

Jacksonville gets around league attendance metrics and blackout rules by tarping over seats in their stadium. Do the Bills do the same?

 

[DaBruinz]

In 2006, Buffalo was dead last in stadium capacity with an average of 84.5% of the tickets per game sold. In 2005, they were 28th with 89.9% of the tickets sold. In 2004, they were 28th again with 89.7%. In 2003, they had a good year with 91.2% being still 28th in the league in attendance. In 2002 with all the hype with Bledsoe, they were 29th in the league with 85.6% capacity (also eventhough they have about 15,000 more seats they only averaged 30 more people per game in the stands than the Pats had that year).

In contrast, the Pats have had over 100% capacity (SRO tickets count as the overage) during the whole period. I really don't think the Pats and Bills fan base is very comparable as far as attending the game at all.

There is a certain segment of the Bills fans that would pay more to go to the game, but there is a whole bunch who won't. Besides, it is a catch 22. Wilson raises the ticket price and he risks selling out even fewer games which means more local blackouts and TV revenue is lost and the fan base dwindles.


http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/attendance?sort=home_perc&year=2006
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/attendance?sort=home_perc&year=2006
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/attendance?sort=home_perc&year=2004

So, let me get this straight. Buffalo draws over 67.6K people PER GAME which is 10K more than Indianapolis and you want me to believe that there is an issue here?

1st off, the Bills could buy the remainded of the tickets to sell out games and declare the money as a loss.

2ndly, they could easily close certain sections and notify the league of a capacity change, which teams do all the time and their % could change easily.

Sorry, but this crying poverty when they are right in the middle of the pack for attendance is ludicrous.

 

[Rob0729]

OH, and to Rob, just because a place doesn't have its corporate headquarters in a particular city, doesn't mean they won't get the naming rights.

Never said anything about naming rights. I am talking luxury boxes and, to a smaller extent, club seats. I agree Wilson could get a major sponsor to name the stadium very easily. I think the average price for a luxury box for Gillette Stadium is like $150k a year and upwards to $300k (don't quote me on that). The Pats have 86 luxury suites. Do you really think Buffalo can get 86 companies to shell out $100-300k a year to pay for a luxury box?

 

[Rob0729]

So, let me get this straight. Buffalo draws over 67.6K people PER GAME which is 10K more than Indianapolis and you want me to believe that there is an issue here?

1st off, the Bills could buy the remainded of the tickets to sell out games and declare the money as a loss.

2ndly, they could easily close certain sections and notify the league of a capacity change, which teams do all the time and their % could change easily.

Sorry, but this crying poverty when they are right in the middle of the pack for attendance is ludicrous.

What is the average price of a Colt ticket and a Bills ticket? If it cost as much to go to a Colts' game as it does a Bills game, would the attendance be higher in the RCA Dome.

Again, would the Bills be middle of the pack in attendance if they were middle of the pack in ticket price. You nor I can answer that. Considering part of their attendance is from Canada where their dollar is considerably less than the US dollar, it might be difficult.

 

[PatsSteve1]

I can see an expansion team granted to LA before this happens...

* I sure hope that doesn't happen. The NFL doesn't have enough good QB's to go around now. And if they added a team there and it made for a 5 team division, how long before they add more teams so each team has 5 teams. I'd most like to see the league stay as it is. But if there has to be a team in LA them let the a team move there. I hope it isn't the Bills though.

 

[AllabouttheVinces]

Ultimately it will come down to:

1. The stadium lease. Can't breach the current contract, but the new city will also need a favorable lease, and so far that hasn't happened in LA.

2. Ralph Wilson's will. It may prohibit a sale to an out-of-state buyer, or it may require a sale to the highest bid. Who knows?

and

3. Roger Goodell

Most of the other stuff doesn't matter. Yes, there are some great local buyers. But if someone in LA pays $200M more than the local buyer, it doesn't matter....unless Goodell takes a stand that supports a non-move. That would be bad for overall TV ratings, so I wouldn't bet on it. I think the initial premise of the thread is solid - the Bills will move. Money talks, and there's lots more of it in LA.

 

[DaBruinz]

Never said anything about naming rights. I am talking luxury boxes and, to a smaller extent, club seats. I agree Wilson could get a major sponsor to name the stadium very easily. I think the average price for a luxury box for Gillette Stadium is like $150k a year and upwards to $300k (don't quote me on that). The Pats have 86 luxury suites. Do you really think Buffalo can get 86 companies to shell out $100-300k a year to pay for a luxury box?

Yeah, nice way to ignore the rest of the paragraph there chumly. Corporations CAN and DO shell out money for luxury boxes NOT in venues NOT where their corportate HQs are located all the time. Why? Many times they can make it a tax right off through entertainment expenses.

Now, Buffalo doesn't need 86 luxury boxes. They need to do what Kraft did. Kraft went out and found out what the best number would be for seats in his stadium and built it. He probably should have enclosed the one end zone for the extra 3K seats, but that is just my opinion. However, Ralph Wilson Stadium can and has been full. And Wilson has and can finance a new stadium if he wanted to. Hell, he was one of the ones complaining about Kraft using the NFL to finance some of the money, yet Wilson also forgets that Kraft is paying interest on that money back to the NFL coffers. Money that Wilson is reaping the rewards on.

Again, its a matter of how you market to the corporations. You cut them deals for the first couple of years on a 10 year deal and then the last few years are at a higher rate to compensate for the change in time and such. But Wilson has neither built a new stadium nor marketed his team properly. And he reaps the rewards of other teams hard work.

Indy will be coming into a windfall soon. Especially with the sweetheart deal they got on their stadium. Cincinnati could do the same, if they so chose. Its all about putting your ego behind making money. Ralph Wilson hasn't been able to do it and its got people not taking him seriously because its just BS. Especially with the money that Buffalo threw around this season with FA bonuses. You may want to look into how much they spent. It will surprise you.

 

[spacecrime]

Come on, Rob0! I'm sure you know better than that.

Call the salary cap 100 million - simplifying for clarity.
The sal cap is (call it) 60% of defined revenues - or whatever adjective the CBA uses. Mostly tv revs.

That means the club grosses 67 mil more than it owes to players.

No, it does not.

It means that the average of all teams is $167 million gross. The pats gross could be $250 mil and the Bills gross could be $101 mil.

All teams spend to the same cap, but all teams have different gross incomes.

It is very conceivable that Wilson has very little or even a negative balance after expenses.

Also, the poster was talking about cash flow, which is different from cap. A $20 mil bonus may be spread over five years for the cap, but the team writes out a check for $20 mil as soon as the contract is signed and approved by the league. Some teams do not have the cash on hand to do that, which limits their bonuses.

I'm not defending Wilson. He is a dope who refuses to maximize revenues.

But to say that each team has $67 mil after spending to the cap is just wrong.

 

[spacecrime]

You really need to look at the CBA. This isn't how it works. The bonus money counts against the cap over the length of the contract.

Yes, that is how it works. Bonus money is not paid out over the length of the contract, it is paid out in year one. All of it. That is why teams can spend more than the cap in any given year.

Again, what is being spent is NOT the cap number. The cap is an accounting tool, not a measure of cash flow.

 

[RichardHead]

You're overexaggerating things a bit here. Yes, the tickets are cheap, but consider that 15,000 fans more can fit into the BIlls stadium than the Patriots. The vast majority of those 15,000 seats are third deck corner family seats at $25 a pop. They water down the average price. Have you been to the Bills stadium and seen how massive it is? Trust me, I can't get an end zone seat for less than $55 at Ralph Wilson. Sideline seats go up from there.

I went on a road trip to Buffalo for last years Pat's game, it wasn't "massive", hell it reminded me of the old Foxboro Stadium. We got End Zone seats (5 rows up, I could hear the cheerleaders pom-poms), from Stub Hub, face value on the ticket was $48, so I don't know why you think you have to pay over $55.

 

[Tunescribe]

If you think that the Buffalo fans aren't willing to shell out the money, your fooling yourself. They have a waiting list for season tickets just like the Pats do.

I don't think that's right. The Bills still have season tickets available as far as I know.

 

[Dagg]

:Only a few of the companies you mentioned have their corporate headquarters based in the Buffalo era. I doubt that many corporations will allow their subbranches shellout $100,000 plus a year for ten games a year. "


You are dead wrong all of these are corporate head quarters not subbranches.

ALOT of folsk in rochester and toronto have season tickets to the Bills games. Alll my friends do and it taskes us an hour to get to the stadium. And where they park alot of the folks around tailgating are Canadian. So in reality they are alrady the Toronto/Buffalo/Rochester Bills. The issue is definatley with the cost of living at tocket prices vs inflated markets like Boston and NYC.

 

[QuiGon]

The Stadium was recently renovated.

Yeah..? That's actually kinda pathetic that it has recently been renovated and remains in the horrible condition it is in... probably worst stadium in the league that I have ever been to....

 

[QuiGon]

It's not homerism at all. Maybe you're not paying attention. I am. This issue has been discussed in New York state, and Goodell (a Buffalo native, there's a street here named after his Dad, a US Senator) met with Chuck Schumer who oversees the committee in charge of the NFL's antitrust. NY is adamant about not losing the only NFL team based in NY (translation: tax revenue from the NFL). You're incorrect if you think the NFL will help the Bills move to LA. I'm not saying the Bills won't move, but it's not the scenario that the NFL wants.

Sorry, but I am having a hard time buying this considering the fact that the Jets were begging the city and state of NY to take them back, the NFL offered NY a Super Bowl, and NY kicked them to the curb. But the same state that wouldn't take the Jets and a Super Bowl is going to bend over backwards to keep the Bills..? Don't make me laugh...

Your homerism does nothing to change the fact that the NFL wants a team in LA more than they want a team in Buffalo. If the Bills show any interest in moving west, Commissioner Goodell himself will help pack up the trucks.