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OT: The Buffalo Bills on borrowed time in western NY and the AFC East?


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that would suck to not have the bills in the division anymore, they have alot of history. If they got moved to LA who would take over there spot in the east ?? Colts back into the east??

The Ravens could be moved to the East. Logically, they should be in it as Baltimore is where the Colts started off. The Chiefs could then be moved to the North with the Steelers, Bengals, and Colts. Probably wouldn't happen though because of the Chiefs/Raider rivalry, which actually has been dead for years.
 
I've always respected the Bills and their fans. I hope they never leave the city or the division. Dumb moves on the Bledsoe and Milloy deals....but I think they've finally learned and are cleaning house. We will see.
 
This team in our division is on borrowed time,Wilson will NOT keep the team in the family and that spells doom for the fans of Buffalo.
It will be like the Wrigley family and the Cubs... when the old man dies, his inheritors can't afford to keep the team and pay the inheritance taxes, so they will have to sell...

And with one of the oldest stadiums in the league, no prospects for a new one on the horizon and a very small market, you're darn right the new owners will probably pick 'em up and move 'em out.
 
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I bet the NFL will do all it can to make sure the next owner keeps the team in town.
This is just silly homerism. If a new owner comes along and plans to move the team to L.A., the league will help him pack the moving trucks.
 
They've been top 10 in attendance for over 20 years now. Not only do they fill the seats but they have over 3 million people living in the region.
Attendance is meaningless. The real money comes from club seats and luxury boxes. That's why all these teams are building new stadiums. This is from memory so I may be wrong, but I think 24 of 32 teams are in buildings built in the past 20 years or have started construction on new ones. And of the 8 teams that aren't in new buildings, 2 of those (GB and Chi) had major renovations recently. So that leaves Buffalo, KC, Oak, SD, Minny and NO.
There just aren't that many places to go to other than Los Angeles, and something tells me that the league already has a team in mind for LA.
They do - well they actually have 3 teams in mind. Buffalo, KC and Minny. Mark my words... one of those teams will be going to LA eventually.
 
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It is a HUUUUGGGGEEEEE difference. It is cash on hand and how much money you can finance. All upfront money counts, but it is easier to get up front money if you make more money. The Patriots probably make twice or even three times as much money as the Bills do. They can shell out $10 million from their profits. The Bills would probably have to finance it. There is only so much financing a team can do before the bank says no more.

I have to admit, I don't understand the argument. The Bills have spent to the salary cap every year. In other words, they have spent just as much money as Daniel Snyder. Have you seen the amount of signing bonuses they doled out recently? They are not cash strapped. While I agree with Ken that they can do a lot better to promote the team, there is the potential that the Bills and other small market teams will get left behind if the salary cap increases exponentially.


This is a simple economics issue, not a cap issue. The Patriots are the second highest revenue team and the Bills are the lowest revenue team. The Pats can far more easily afford to shell out more upfront money to players because they have far more revenue coming in than the Bills. The cap has nothing to do with this. The banks have far more to do with this.

Are you sure the Bills have the lowest revenues? Lower than Arizona? Lower than Oakland? I find that hard to believe. 70,000 fans weekly at $65 a pop tells me they're making more than teams with half full stadiums. I really think you're wrong on the Bills and up front money, and it's proven by the amount of upfront money they recently doled out, much more than the Patriots.

And they are dead last in average ticket price (their average ticket is half of what the Patriots' average ticket is). This is because their population cannot or will not pay for tickets at the league average. This is a big part of the reason why they are dead last in revenues.
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You're overexaggerating things a bit here. Yes, the tickets are cheap, but consider that 15,000 fans more can fit into the BIlls stadium than the Patriots. The vast majority of those 15,000 seats are third deck corner family seats at $25 a pop. They water down the average price. Have you been to the Bills stadium and seen how massive it is? Trust me, I can't get an end zone seat for less than $55 at Ralph Wilson. Sideline seats go up from there.

Only a few of the companies you mentioned have their corporate headquarters based in the Buffalo era. I doubt that many corporations will allow their subbranches shellout $100,000 plus a year for ten games a year.

All the companies on that list save M&T (I just checked again, sorry) have their USA headquarters in the area. They are massive employers here. Look it up, HSBC, Eastman Kodak, Delaware North, etc.

As for cities that would better support a team than Buffalo, LA, San Antonio, Portland, a SC team potentially, and a few other places have been discussed. Buffalo isn't even one of the 50 top populated cities from what I could find.

Why would they better support their team? What tells you that? Where are you getting your info? LA has lost 3 teams because of NON-SUPPORT. Portland has that west coast flavor about it. You think these cities would be more loyal than Bills fans who have bought a ton of tickets now while waiting 15 years for a decent team. Is eriously doubt it.

As for cities and their populations, you have to look at metro areas. It's silly to compare, say, St. louis to jacksonville when Jacksonville is the largest city in America (sq. footage) and St. Louis has a tiny footprint. Look at the entire region. Buffalo has 1.3 million living in the city and first ring sburbs. Rochester has 1.2 million people less than an hour away. Over the Peace Bridge in Buffalo, there are the Canadian fans (10-15% of the season ticket holders) and that's another 500k up to St. Catherine's. A lot of people live up here, over 3 million.

The Bills main problem is Ralph Wilson's laziness, Marv Levy's crappy drafts, and the fact that it's a small market. As far as the NFL goes, it's simi9lar to a lot of small market teams. But if the Bills get their act together, you'll see Wilson increase the ticke prices. They can't now because they suck.

Look at the Sabres. Over 50 home games a year, tickets fetching over $65 a seat for 19,000 seats, and 10 of those games they were selling seats for over $200 (playoffs). Do the math: the Sabres brought in about $90 million in ticket sales. Multiple that times concessions from 50 games. Over $100 million bucks. If Ralph Wilson had a brain, consider how much he could charge if he could draw as much fan support as the Sabres do: $90 million / 70,000 seats / 8 games = $160 bucks a ticket. That's how well the Sabres are doing and how poorly the Bills are doing.
 
We are talking salary cap vs. money paid out. These are two different things. The Pats pay out actual dollars well over the cap virtually every year. Are they violating the cap rules? No. Dollars actual paid are totally different than the actual cap.

For example, Adalius Thomas cost the Patriots $13 million this year, but he only counts $3.4 million vs. the cap. Wes Welker got a $5.5 million bonus, but only counts $1.7 million towards the cap. So those two players are going to get paid $19 million by the Patriots this year between the two, but only count $5.1 million vs. the cap.

You really need to look at the CBA. This isn't how it works. The bonus money counts against the cap over the length of the contract.
 
It will be like the Wrigley family and the Cubs... when the old man dies, his inheritors can't afford to keep the team and pay the inheritance taxes, so they will have to sell...

And with one of the oldest stadiums in the league, no prospects for a new one on the horizon and a very small market, you're darn right the new owners will probably pick 'em up and move 'em out.


The Stadium was recently renovated.
 
I think if the league keeps going like it is, Buffalo is going to lose the Bills no matter who is owning the team. Smaller markets will be forced to relocate eventually based on the way the cap is going. The Bills just cannot afford to keep up with all these big signing bonuses that teams give out. Yes, everyone is working with the same cap, but a team like the Patriots are far more equiped to shell out a $10 million upfront signing bonus than the Bills are based on their additional revenues. We aren't talking cap money, we are talking real dollars.

A city like Buffalo has problem with fan support (not passion, but number of fans they can fill the stadium with), the price point of their tickets (Buffalo is a blue collared town for the most part and they could never get their fans to pay what we pay for our tickets), luxary boxes (there isn't enough corporate prescense), and additional advertising. Unless the rest of the league puts a cap on upfront bonuses or share more revenue, teams like the Bills, Jags, Bengals, etc. will be forced to relocate to more profitable areas at some point.

Green Bay is how big again????
 
This is just silly homerism. If a new owner comes along and plans to move the team to L.A., the league will help him pack the moving trucks.

It's not homerism at all. Maybe you're not paying attention. I am. This issue has been discussed in New York state, and Goodell (a Buffalo native, there's a street here named after his Dad, a US Senator) met with Chuck Schumer who oversees the committee in charge of the NFL's antitrust. NY is adamant about not losing the only NFL team based in NY (translation: tax revenue from the NFL). You're incorrect if you think the NFL will help the Bills move to LA. I'm not saying the Bills won't move, but it's not the scenario that the NFL wants.
 
They do - well they actually have 3 teams in mind. Buffalo, KC and Minny. Mark my words... one of those teams will be going to LA eventually.

You got a citation for that?
 
...they actually have 3 teams in mind. Buffalo, KC and Minny. Mark my words... one of those teams will be going to LA eventually.

I can see an expansion team granted to LA before this happens...
 
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You really need to look at the CBA. This isn't how it works. The bonus money counts against the cap over the length of the contract.

It is exactly how it works. Bonus money does get amortized over the life of the contract, but you can't pay someone a huge signing bonus and have the money be taken out out of your bank account over the life of the contract.

Bob Kraft can't give Adalius Thomas a $12 million signing bonus paid out in March and then tell his bank that they can only deduct $3 million from his bank account this year because that is all that counts against the cap.

The CBA has absolutely nothing to do with this. If you give a large signing bonus up front, you are responsible for that money. It has nothing to do with the cap, it is real dollars that is paid out. For cap purposes, it is reconized over the life of the contract, but all the money is paid out immediately.

This CBA uses basic accounting principles for bonuses. If your company buys you a computer and they pay $1,000. They only recognize $200 of that cost in this year's taxes and $200 every year until the $1,000 is realized. Unless the company financed it, they still pay 100% up front although the government looks at it as they bought it in five pieces over five years.
 
I have to admit, I don't understand the argument. The Bills have spent to the salary cap every year. In other words, they have spent just as much money as Daniel Snyder. Have you seen the amount of signing bonuses they doled out recently? They are not cash strapped. While I agree with Ken that they can do a lot better to promote the team, there is the potential that the Bills and other small market teams will get left behind if the salary cap increases exponentially.

Again, teams like the Redskins lure talent with huge signing bonuses with a lot of up front money. They give the players long term deals to minimize the cap hit, but they pay a lot of real money up front. Asante Samuel wants something like $80 million over 10 years. If he was a free agent, a rich guy like Daniel Snyder could offer Samuel a 10 year $80 million contract with a $30 million signing bonus to make sure no one could beat his price (yes, I know I am exaggerating to prove a point). Snyder is one of a handful of owners who would could easily generate $30 million up front for a single player like that. From a cap standpoint, It wouldn't have much different cap ramification per year than a contract with a $5 million signing bonus if it is structured a certain way.




Are you sure the Bills have the lowest revenues? Lower than Arizona? Lower than Oakland? I find that hard to believe. 70,000 fans weekly at $65 a pop tells me they're making more than teams with half full stadiums. I really think you're wrong on the Bills and up front money, and it's proven by the amount of upfront money they recently doled out, much more than the Patriots.

I was wrong they are 25th in revenues.

You're overexaggerating things a bit here. Yes, the tickets are cheap, but consider that 15,000 fans more can fit into the BIlls stadium than the Patriots. The vast majority of those 15,000 seats are third deck corner family seats at $25 a pop. They water down the average price. Have you been to the Bills stadium and seen how massive it is? Trust me, I can't get an end zone seat for less than $55 at Ralph Wilson. Sideline seats go up from there.

Just a bit. The Pats' average ticket is $90.89 (highest in the NFL) and the Bills' average ticket is 53.81 (lowest in the NFL). That is about a $37 difference. The Bills have cheap seats because they can't fill the stands. Do you think with a waiting list of an estimated 50,000 people that the Patriots couldn't fill 15,000 at their normal third deck ticket price?



All the companies on that list save M&T (I just checked again, sorry) have their USA headquarters in the area. They are massive employers here. Look it up, HSBC, Eastman Kodak, Delaware North, etc.

Kodak's headquarters in Rochester which is a little under 100 miles away. Buffalo is not nearly the business center as most other NFL cities.



Why would they better support their team? What tells you that? Where are you getting your info? LA has lost 3 teams because of NON-SUPPORT. Portland has that west coast flavor about it. You think these cities would be more loyal than Bills fans who have bought a ton of tickets now while waiting 15 years for a decent team. Is eriously doubt it.

As for cities and their populations, you have to look at metro areas. It's silly to compare, say, St. louis to jacksonville when Jacksonville is the largest city in America (sq. footage) and St. Louis has a tiny footprint. Look at the entire region. Buffalo has 1.3 million living in the city and first ring sburbs. Rochester has 1.2 million people less than an hour away. Over the Peace Bridge in Buffalo, there are the Canadian fans (10-15% of the season ticket holders) and that's another 500k up to St. Catherine's. A lot of people live up here, over 3 million.

I'm sorry, but Buffalo is a small market no matter how you slice it. No one other than you are disputing that.

The Bills main problem is Ralph Wilson's laziness, Marv Levy's crappy drafts, and the fact that it's a small market. As far as the NFL goes, it's simi9lar to a lot of small market teams. But if the Bills get their act together, you'll see Wilson increase the ticke prices. They can't now because they suck.

The Bills have had problems selling out home games for over a decade. Marv Levy actually had a pretty good draft last year. He actually had a better draft than most of Tom Donahoe's.

Look at the Sabres. Over 50 home games a year, tickets fetching over $65 a seat for 19,000 seats, and 10 of those games they were selling seats for over $200 (playoffs). Do the math: the Sabres brought in about $90 million in ticket sales. Multiple that times concessions from 50 games. Over $100 million bucks. If Ralph Wilson had a brain, consider how much he could charge if he could draw as much fan support as the Sabres do: $90 million / 70,000 seats / 8 games = $160 bucks a ticket. That's how well the Sabres are doing and how poorly the Bills are doing.

You cannot compare hockey to football. What does the Sabre's hockey rink hold? Nineteen thousand seats? Do you think the Sabres could sell out Ralph Wilson Stadium
 
There just aren't that many places to go to other than Los Angeles, and something tells me that the league already has a team in mind for LA.

Do you think that team is Jacksonville? I just can't see KC moving, and isn't Minnesota building a new football-only stadium for the Vikings?

The league should have moved the Saints to LA; NO is a geologically doomed city.

If I could decide what team to move, it would be the dolts. Phonyindoorturf + hayseeds.

I hope the Bills don't move, but if they do, then Baltimore would be the logical replacement.
 
Green Bay is how big again????

Green Bay is the exception to the rule and everyone acknowledges it. They are the only fan owned, non-profit team in the league. Green Bay's charter requires that every penny made in profit goes back to the team. No other team does that.

Besides, when was the last time you saw Green Bay give out a huge signing bonus to acquire a player? Reggie White maybe.
 
I think if the league keeps going like it is, Buffalo is going to lose the Bills no matter who is owning the team. Smaller markets will be forced to relocate eventually based on the way the cap is going. The Bills just cannot afford to keep up with all these big signing bonuses that teams give out. Yes, everyone is working with the same cap, but a team like the Patriots are far more equiped to shell out a $10 million upfront signing bonus than the Bills are based on their additional revenues. We aren't talking cap money, we are talking real dollars.

You brought up this argument before. I didn't buy it then and I don't buy it now. One of the reasons I don't buy it is that, as someone else mentioned, there are some 3 million people within 60 miles of Buffalo. Granted, that isn't the 8 million of NYC and New Jersey, but its not chump change either.

A city like Buffalo has problem with fan support (not passion, but number of fans they can fill the stadium with), the price point of their tickets (Buffalo is a blue collared town for the most part and they could never get their fans to pay what we pay for our tickets), luxary boxes (there isn't enough corporate prescense), and additional advertising. Unless the rest of the league puts a cap on upfront bonuses or share more revenue, teams like the Bills, Jags, Bengals, etc. will be forced to relocate to more profitable areas at some point.

ALL the things that you mentioned is a direct result of the Bills lack of trying to get corporate sponsors. This idea that there isn't enough corporate presence in Northern NY is bunk. There are TONS of companies up in that area. And they do draw people from across the border as well. There is no reason they can't draw on those companies for sponsorship.

Also, the TV contract pays for nearly the entire salary of teams. There is additional revenue that is divided up to the "small market teams". That was what the big bru-ha-ha was about before. Ralph Wilson crying poverty while sitting on his arse and not marketing his team the way he could be.

Also, considering that there are fans all over the country, now, there are fans of every team that travel once or twice a year to see their team. ANd they travel cross country to do it. And many stadiums are sold out, year after year. Buffalo may not be, but, again, that goes back to the lack of effective marketing by the team.
 
1. The Bills make money NOW, just not as much as other teams.
2. They wouldn't have trouble selling out if they had a winning team. They haven't been competitive since 2002.
3. If any existing franchise should move it should be Jacksonville, that was a bad choice to begin with. FL shouldn't have 3 franchises.
4. The Bills marketing would be much better if they included the Toronto area. How far is Buffalo from Toronto? I bet its less than 150miles
5. Buffalo's major problems have nothing to do with the football part of the organization, and more to do with the actual running of the franchise and hard work it takes to market the team.
 
I know Cincy, Buffalo and Jax are not very wealthy areas. Neither are Kansas city, Pittsburgh and a few others. But, the question I always ask is, move to where? Can we name a few cities that these teams could move to? That's where I always find a problem. There just aren't that many places to go to other than Los Angeles, and something tells me that the league already has a team in mind for LA.

Honestly, I think that the league is looking at Las Vegas as a potential place for a football team.

They put a team in Phoenix because it and Tempe were the fastest growing areas in the country. I am not sure if Texas could support another team in either Austin or San Antonio. But, other than that, you'd be hard pressed, I feel, to find a place to put a football team.
 
It is a HUUUUGGGGEEEEE difference. It is cash on hand and how much money you can finance. All upfront money counts, but it is easier to get up front money if you make more money. The Patriots probably make twice or even three times as much money as the Bills do. They can shell out $10 million from their profits. The Bills would probably have to finance it. There is only so much financing a team can do before the bank says no more.


This is a simple economics issue, not a cap issue. The Patriots are the second highest revenue team and the Bills are the lowest revenue team. The Pats can far more easily afford to shell out more upfront money to players because they have far more revenue coming in than the Bills. The cap has nothing to do with this. The banks have far more to do with this.





And they are dead last in average ticket price (their average ticket is half of what the Patriots' average ticket is). This is because their population cannot or will not pay for tickets at the league average. This is a big part of the reason why they are dead last in revenues.



Only a few of the companies you mentioned have their corporate headquarters based in the Buffalo era. I doubt that many corporations will allow their subbranches shellout $100,000 plus a year for ten games a year.





Pittsburgh and KC have fans who are willing to pay for their tickets. KC has the third highest average ticket rate behind NE and Washington. Pittsburgh has the 16th most, but also has a brand new stadium with the Heinz corporation paying big bucks for the naming rights.

As for cities that would better support a team than Buffalo, LA, San Antonio, Portland, a SC team potentially, and a few other places have been discussed. Buffalo isn't even one of the 50 top populated cities from what I could find.

If you think that the Buffalo fans aren't willing to shell out the money, your fooling yourself. They have a waiting list for season tickets just like the Pats do. I highly doubt that 2/3 of the season ticket holders AND the current waiting list would turn down their tickets if there was a $10 increase per ticket across the board.
 
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