OT: Official 2021 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I don't know how much of that was true but if anyone believes that they are kidding themselves. Is the coach in Cincinnati a genius that turned around the franchise? Maybe it's the QB. Are the Chargers a rising team because of that clown coach? Not a chance. Somehow it's supposed to be different in NE. Whatever BB touches turns to gold. I've used Marv Lewis as the perfect comparison with Dalton. Made the playoffs a million years in a row and has no job and certainly no HOF. NE did well this year but no division title and most likely no championship. As the years go on and on it will become even clearer that despite him being the best coach in history, it's the players. Especially the QB. You don't win titles because of a coach you win it because of the players. Of course coaching is needed but what is needed to win divisions like cinci did the other night and titles like we did forever, is big time plays by big time players. Not xs and os.

Mac is the exact QB people have claimed BB can win with. They have a top defense and a smart, accurate QB who doesn’t have elite skills but can execute a gameplan. This is sort of where I’ve differed from a lot of fans here…I think coaching, defense, and supporting cast gets you only so far (there are always outlier seasons.) But in essence, Alex Smith is a guy who can get you 11 wins; Patrick Mahomes is a guy who can get you a championship. People can dishonestly cite Nick Foles, Eli Manning, etc. while ignoring the incredibly high and obvious correlation between team standing and QB.

I’m not saying at all that if the Patriots don’t win the championship, it proves that Bill is a failure or a product of Brady or whatever. Obviously he put together a strong roster this season. But it’s the obvious truth that the team has, minus elite QB play, such small, unrealistic margins of error elsewhere, and the defense has to play at an unsustainable level. And good coaching/schemes simply aren’t enough…a QB will need to make a lot of high level plays that goes beyond just coaching. I’ve been surprised that many people don’t see the game from that standpoint.

 

[Tottie]

Mac is the exact QB people have claimed BB can win with. They have a top defense and a smart, accurate QB who doesn’t elite skills but can execute a gameplan. This is sort of where I’ve differed from a lot of fans here…I think coaching, defense, and supporting cast gets you only so far (there are always outlier seasons.) But in essence, Alex Smith is a guy who can get you 11 wins; Patrick Mahomes is a guy who can get you a championship. People can dishonestly cite Nick Foles, Eli Manning, etc. while ignoring the incredibly high and obvious correlation between team standing and QB.

I’m not saying at all that if the Patriots don’t win the championship, it proves that Bill is a failure or a product of Brady or whatever. Obviously he put together a strong roster this season. But it’s the obvious truth that the team has, minus elite QB play, has such small margins of error elsewhere, and the defense has to play at an unsustainable level. And good coaching/schemes simply aren’t enough…a QB will need to make a lot of high level plays that goes beyond just coaching. I’ve been surprised that many people don’t see the game from that standpoint.

It doesn't mean that anyone can't win a championship and that's what makes people not understand this. Anyone can win any year if they get hot and we've seen it. To become a dynasty though? To be the top team year in and year out? Rattle off multiple championships and win big games? It becomes impossible to do so without the best players. The eagles superbowl we lost is a perfect example of a one off , everything went right, balls to the wall playcalling. They had great players but what they did is generally not repeatable and is not an indication that they had a HOF coach or GM. It worked that year and that's it.

 

[Pats1971]

It doesn't mean that anyone can't win a championship and that's what makes people not understand this. Anyone can win any year if they get hot and we've seen it. To become a dynasty though? To be the top team year in and year out? Rattle off multiple championships and win big games? It becomes impossible to do so without the best players. The eagles superbowl we lost is a perfect example of a one off , everything went right, balls to the wall playcalling. They had great players but what they did is generally not repeatable and is not an indication that they had a HOF coach or GM. It worked that year and that's it.

Its the difference between good and great. Consistency. If you want to consistently win in this league you have to have a special QB. Its that simple. People always say oh but look in 2001 the pats won and Brady was not special. There are so many nuancies in players and especially QB's. People tend to box score hunt to find special and its not always that simple. If brady had won that superbowl in 01 and then never won anything again then obviously he was not special. Which is what guys like Foles do.

Oh on the eagles, they also changed the catch rule in the middle of the game.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

And here I thought this was the Brady & Bucs thread.
If shiny new thing rehabbed Todd Bowels gets hired away as a HC of some doomed franchise, Flores would be an excellent hire as Bucs DC. Major upgrade in my view.

 

[Tottie]

And here I thought this was the Brady & Bucs thread.
If shiny new thing rehabbed Todd Bowels gets hired away as a HC of some doomed franchise, Flores would be an excellent hire as Bucs DC. Major upgrade in my view.

Would be great but he should be snagged up pretty quickly I would think. Guy won 19 games in the last 2 years what do they expect a coach can do? Must of been some big drama to fire a guy like that and not the GM because the team responded well to him down the stretch even though they had a tough start. It's like owners think changing coaches will change the team. They aren't going to win more games with that roster with BB or any coach.

 

[amfootball]

It's a little telling that none of the coaches from BB coaching tree had no interest in Brady.

I think many coaches were in agreement with BB that going from Brady to JG was seamless as he can make all the same throws. Coaches were taking credit for some of Brady's greatness and essentially hinting that Brady was a system QB in his later years and on the decline.

What he has done in Tampa has put that notion to bed permanently.

I think Brady had no interest in them except for Bill O'Brien. I mean Brady had a very short list of teams - he wanted to go to a contender with some say in personnel and also warm weather. That left him with the Chargers, Niners, Saints and Bucs. Very short list.

 

[amfootball]

Mac is the exact QB people have claimed BB can win with. They have a top defense and a smart, accurate QB who doesn’t have elite skills but can execute a gameplan. This is sort of where I’ve differed from a lot of fans here…I think coaching, defense, and supporting cast gets you only so far (there are always outlier seasons.) But in essence, Alex Smith is a guy who can get you 11 wins; Patrick Mahomes is a guy who can get you a championship. People can dishonestly cite Nick Foles, Eli Manning, etc. while ignoring the incredibly high and obvious correlation between team standing and QB.

I’m not saying at all that if the Patriots don’t win the championship, it proves that Bill is a failure or a product of Brady or whatever. Obviously he put together a strong roster this season. But it’s the obvious truth that the team has, minus elite QB play, such small, unrealistic margins of error elsewhere, and the defense has to play at an unsustainable level. And good coaching/schemes simply aren’t enough…a QB will need to make a lot of high level plays that goes beyond just coaching. I’ve been surprised that many people don’t see the game from that standpoint.

The issue with Mac is he is making plays to lose games. I am just not high on the guy at all. His arm is terrible. His decision making is head scratching and his pocket movement is average. I know he is a rookie but I don't see anything special there. He is also a low energy guy that does not appear to inspire his teammates. These past 4 games have been a real eye opener. I am not saying we should move on yet as give him this off-season to see if he can get stronger, but right now the DCs have figured him out. Take away the middle and force him outside. His stats have been lousy the last month and a half. Mills has outplayed him since Halloween. Imagine if we had Parsons right now and Mills? I mean guys like Mac are a dime a dozen.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

It doesn't mean that anyone can't win a championship and that's what makes people not understand this. Anyone can win any year if they get hot and we've seen it. To become a dynasty though? To be the top team year in and year out? Rattle off multiple championships and win big games? It becomes impossible to do so without the best players. The eagles superbowl we lost is a perfect example of a one off , everything went right, balls to the wall playcalling. They had great players but what they did is generally not repeatable and is not an indication that they had a HOF coach or GM. It worked that year and that's it.

I feel like it is often times simply dishonest, bordering on lying, and it's a shame to see some posters who for years have been at least honest in their arguments. Same thing with the 2020 salary cap "reset" line of reasoning, but that a different topic...just same type of bizarre and dishonest reasoning about cap allotment, twisting into pretzels to explain the reasoning.

Yes, we always have exceptions; just because something is generally true and reliable doesn't mean it is true every single time or reliable every single time. I'm going to buy the most reliable car from the brand with the most reliability; sometimes, a car from that brand breaks down and performs worse than a car from a less reliable brand. On your next car are you going to buy from the less reliable brand? Basically the argument, translated to football, is that we really don't "need" an elite quarterback because, a few times in recent years, we've seen a non-elite quarterback raise the Lombardi trophy.

 

[Tottie]

I feel like it is often times simply dishonest, bordering on lying, and it's a shame to see some posters who for years have been at least honest in their arguments. Same thing with the 2020 salary cap "reset" line of reasoning, but that a different topic...just same type of bizarre and dishonest reasoning about cap allotment, twisting into pretzels to explain the reasoning.

Yes, we always have exceptions; just because something is generally true and reliable doesn't mean it is true every single time or reliable every single time. I'm going to buy the most reliable car from the brand with the most reliability; sometimes, a car from that brand breaks down and performs worse than a car from a less reliable brand. On your next car are you going to buy from the less reliable brand? Basically the argument, translated to football, is that we really don't "need" an elite quarterback because, a few times in recent years, we've seen a non-elite quarterback raise the Lombardi trophy.

Right. And there's nothing wrong with building your program to try win without that QB because lets face it they dont grow on trees, but to say coaching can influence the team in a way to not need them is ridiculous. You were also correct earlier in saying that Mac Jones is EXACTLY what people though BB could replace Brady with and not miss a beat. We'll see what happens over the next 4 years + and hopefully he can rattle off some bigtime wins but if he does it will be because of the players and not because of these coaching strategies like not throwing a ball because it's windy or taking the wind in OT. The Bulls could of spotted teams 1 win before almost every playoff round they went into because they hardly ever got to a game 7 but doesn't mean that would be a winning strategy. Not everything that works is valid as you said.

 

[amfootball]

Right. And there's nothing wrong with building your program to try win without that QB because lets face it they dont grow on trees, but to say coaching can influence the team in a way to not need them is ridiculous. You were also correct earlier in saying that Mac Jones is EXACTLY what people though BB could replace Brady with and not miss a beat. We'll see what happens over the next 4 years + and hopefully he can rattle off some bigtime wins but if he does it will be because of the players and not because of these coaching strategies like not throwing a ball because it's windy or taking the wind in OT. The Bulls could of spotted teams 1 win before almost every playoff round they went into because they hardly ever got to a game 7 but doesn't mean that would be a winning strategy. Not everything that works is valid as you said.

Just look at the divisional winners this year - Bills, Titans, Chiefs, Bengals, GB, TB, Rams, Dallas - ALL of them with the exception of the Titans have a very good/elite/HoF QB and most importantly dynamic offenses. Bill's philosophy of building a run first team with a strong defense is antiquated in today's league where the rules criminally favor the passing game.

Did you catch any of the Niners/Rams game? My God. Dynamic players everywhere. The Niners just like the Pats were down 17-0 to a MUCH better team and came all the way back because they got players like Samuel and Kittle and a stable of running backs that get 7 yards a clip. Bill has got to get this offense some speed and guys you actually have to game plan for. Gone are the days where defenses can hold these top scoring offenses in check. I mean Brady left for this exact reason. Even he saw the futility of our offensive design and approach which is why he wanted a say at the end.

 

[Tottie]

The issue with Mac is he is making plays to lose games. I am just not high on the guy at all. His arm is terrible. His decision making is head scratching and his pocket movement is average. I know he is a rookie but I don't see anything special there. He is also a low energy guy that does not appear to inspire his teammates. These past 4 games have been a real eye opener. I am not saying we should move on yet as give him this off-season to see if he can get stronger, but right now the DCs have figured him out. Take away the middle and force him outside. His stats have been lousy the last month and a half. Mills has outplayed him since Halloween. Imagine if we had Parsons right now and Mills? I mean guys like Mac are a dime a dozen.

He's a rookie and has showed he can play so I won't go as far as yourself. To say he's a young Brady is ridiculous at this point. Brady was clutch and made big throws from the beginning no matter what many people want to say.

 

[Tottie]

Just look at the divisional winners this year - Bills, Titans, Chiefs, Bengals, GB, TB, Rams, Dallas - ALL of them with the exception of the Titans have a very good/elite/HoF QB and most importantly dynamic offenses. Bill's philosophy of building a run first team with a strong defense is antiquated in today's league where the rules criminally favor the passing game.

Did you catch any of the Niners/Rams game? My God. Dynamic players everywhere. The Niners just like the Pats were down 17-0 to a MUCH better team and came all the way back because they got players like Samuel and a stable of running backs that get 7 yards a clip. Bill has got to get this offense some speed and guys you actually have to game plan for. Gone are the days where defenses can hold these top scoring offenses in check. I mean Brady left for this exact reason. Even he saw the futility of our offensive design and approach which is why he wanted a say at the end.

Niners have better offensive players than the Pats at this time though. Deebo and Kittle are Pro Bowlers and amazing. Jimmy is better than Mac right now.

 

[amfootball]

Niners have better offensive players than the Pats at this time though. Deebo and Kittle are Pro Bowlers and amazing. Jimmy is better than Mac right now.

That is my point. Niners have dynamic playmakers all over the field. All of the top teams are built this way.

Jimmy did look great yesterday. I was really happy for him. Imagine performing like that for a coach you know hates you.

 

[Tottie]

That is my point. Niners have dynamic playmakers all over the field. All of the top teams are built this way.

Jimmy did look great yesterday. I was really happy for him. Imagine performing like that for a coach you know hates you.

Ya I see what you mean. I don't know what BB believes and I'm sure he'd take those 2 guys if he could but the 'narrative' before last year was that he wouldn't pay those types of guys. He paid a few last year though.

 

[amfootball]

Ya I see what you mean. I don't know what BB believes and I'm sure he'd take those 2 guys if he could but the 'narrative' before last year was that he wouldn't pay those types of guys. He paid a few last year though.

He did spend in FA but he paid A money for C level players. Honestly, the offensive skill guys we got are Bs and Cs at best. Although I do like Henry. And it does seem like we have something in Wilkerson but Bill won't play him because his ego won't let him admit that Harry is a bust.

 

[Tottie]

He did spend in FA but he paid A money for C level players. Honestly, the offensive skill guys we got are Bs and Cs at best. Although I do like Henry. And it does seem like we have something in Wilkerson but Bill won't play him because his ego won't let him admit that Harry is a bust.

Ya they aren't Deebos and Kittles that's for sure and it's on Mac and them to make themselves better or on BB to get the right guys but at least he tried to pay someone. In the Brady years you had to the best player of all time at your position to get paid and even then guys like Gronk had to fight for a deal and guys like Dola and JE11 were left with deals that weren't great.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

 

[amfootball]

Ya they aren't Deebos and Kittles that's for sure and it's on Mac and them to make themselves better or on BB to get the right guys but at least he tried to pay someone. In the Brady years you had to the best player of all time at your position to get paid and even then guys like Gronk had to fight for a deal and guys like Dola and JE11 were left with deals that weren't great.

I really think when Bill let Amendola walk that was the beginning of the end for Brady. I remember him saying how you cannot duplicate the amount of reps he had with Danny. I will never get why Bill cheaped out on the few actual weapons Brady had. Wouldn't pay Welker, squeezed Jules, made Gronk play on incentive laden deals. Just absurd.

 

[amfootball]

This is why I really like Arians. Can you imagine Bill ever saying anything like that to vouch for Brady?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I really think when Bill let Amendola walk that was the beginning of the end for Brady. I remember him saying how you cannot duplicate the amount of reps he had with Danny. I will never get why Bill cheaped out on the few actual weapons Brady had. Wouldn't pay Welker, squeezed Jules, made Gronk play on incentive laden deals. Just absurd.

Another "three years too early is better than a reasonable, team-friendly two-year extension."