OT: Lamar Jackson

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Those three were also among the top 10 throwers the league has ever seen.

This is the thing about "running" QBs - like RBs, their careers are usually short. Also, the day-to-day pounding will affect other aspects of their game. Let's say Jackson's thigh is really hurting and it slows him down. How afraid of him are you now?

The three above could beat you from the pocket, or rolling out. Jackson can only beat you (at this point, I believe - maybe it will change as he seasons in) because you've have to fear - not respect, but fear - his running.

Jackson leads the league in TD passes along w running the most efficient offense in the game. Only 22 I believe?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Jackson leads the league in TD passes along w running the most efficient offense in the game. Only 22 I believe?

But you know that is disingenuously not addressing the point made by @50-yard-line . LJ could have 40 passing touchdowns this season and citing that still l doesn’t address the point that’s been made like 1,000 times, which is that defenses are broken by his running threat, making it significantly easier to throw passes against huge mismatches.

We’ve seen this with RG3, Kaepeenick, etc.

I’m sure LJ is better than those two but still hasn’t proven he can succeed a pass only QB, which is what running QBs often become after taking a pounding.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I agree he was worth a top 5 pick based off his talent. Based off where the Giants were as an organization at the time they took him I think it was a bad pick. They were in the beginning of a rebuild and drafted a guy who's prime will be winding down by the time that team starts trending up.

I'm sure it's tough as a GM. Your base wants the popular pick. Been on the clock for months. Have to sell tickets, keep people interested.
At this point in time it's just common knowledge you can get production anywhere from that position w/out spending a lot of money or wasting a big pick on a guy who's value is on his first contract.
Again NEP are the perfect example. Bill would laugh you out the room if you suggested taking a RB 2nd overall.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Bill would laugh out of the room anyone who claimed to have universal rules about the NFL draft.

 

[mosi]

No, there are about 5 running backs in the league right now that justify a first round pick. Barkley is one. Michel is most certainly not.

I don't know if I agree or disagree but I can't think of many RBs that are game changers. Who are the other 4 you are thinking about?

 

[sambam94]

I don't know if I agree or disagree but I can't think of many RBs that are game changers. Who are the other 4 you are thinking about?

McCaffrey,Elliot, Barkley, Cook, Chubb, Kamara..and maybe Jacobs

 

[203Pat]

McCaffrey,Elliot, Barkley, Cook, Chubb, Kamara..and maybe Jacobs

So two playoff teams and Kamara is not the same back he was with Ingram.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

But you know that is disingenuously not addressing the point made by @50-yard-line . LJ could have 40 passing touchdowns this season and citing that still l doesn’t address the point that’s been made like 1,000 times, which is that defenses are broken by his running threat, making it significantly easier to throw passes against huge mismatches.

We’ve seen this with RG3, Kaepeenick, etc.

I’m sure LJ is better than those two but still hasn’t proven he can succeed a pass only QB, which is what running QBs often become after taking a pounding.

It's pretty simplistic to think any QB wins one way. Pass or run, that's naive & just a lack of understanding the position.

Brady wins pre/post, w his footwork/pocket presence.

Jackson is absolutely a work in progress but hardly what some are making him out to be. It would be absolutely foolish to not utilize every bit of his skill set.

He's been far & away the best QB of his class. MVP of the league. Leading the league in TD passes & is one of the most efficient passers this year. Again he's a work in progress but saying he can't beat you passing isn't it.

 

[mosi]

McCaffrey,Elliot, Barkley, Cook, Chubb, Kamara..and maybe Jacobs

Yeah, McCafferey is a winner and someone I wish was on the Pats. Maybe Kamara as well.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

If Caff fell into the 20's he'd be great here. I loved him coming out. Thought he translate really well. Felt he could run between the T & savvy enough to pick up tough yards while not taking direct shots.
The big reason is his rec skills. Him, Kamara stand out in terms of their release, cuts. How tight their entire body is throughout the route. They're legit slot options.
Also Caff comes from a dedicated, prideful family. They all train, push each other. His father was a great r/r. Again so crisp & tight. Could run anything. You can tell he's different & one of those kids that's been schooled from an early age. Went to all the camps. Football = life type stuff.

It would take a lot for me to get him where Carolina did. 8th overall?
Idk it would take a lot. We'd have to be set almost everywhere else. Board would have to fall/set up right. Brady still Brady. Multiple first round picks, maybe as a luxury? Idk it would be very tough.

20's-late 30's for a million per? Yea I wouldn't hate it. I didn't hate Sony just thought other options were better & more valuable. I didn't hate Harry. We were desperate so again I get it. Still confident abt how he'll turn out.

If you follow the money, RBs are 5-10 in terms of value & again history shows you can replace these guys & find better value, similar production anywhere from drafting one to udfa.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Not trying to trigger anyone. Not comparing but in terms of passing, won't turn 23 until next month. Jackson is progressing nicely in the most important year or 2nd most important year.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Not trying to trigger anyone. Not comparing but in terms of passing, won't turn 23 until next month. Jackson is progressing nicely in the most important year or 2nd most important year.

Yes, you are trying to trigger people.

<Insert QB here> leads Tom Brady is practically every QB. Brady’s having s terrible season; it’s annoying that the media needs to do a stupid comparison between Bad QB X and Brady to rub it in. Thought a PatsFans poster would be above that, but I forgot who we’re dealing with here.

I looked through your draft sheets last night. I’m glad you have a nice hobby and know a lot about draft prospects, but is your list that much better than the consensus lists published everywhere? Particularly at the QB position, seems like you way undergraded Mahomes and Watson, overgraded Luck, undergraded Wilson, etc.

Seems like you take a lot of credit for being really right about nailing these picks, but I don’t see anything special about your projections, as it seem like the hits and misses are basically the same as everyone else. I guess Lamar Jackson is your big grand slam pick? You did rank Darnold above him and it’s not like Jackson’s rating was that high compared to the consensus, which many of which had Jackson as a first round pick.

Maybe you can cite some data about how your draft evaluation is superior to what we can read in any Mel Kiper-ish rankings. It looks pretty much the same to me.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Yes, you are trying to trigger people.

<Insert QB here> leads Tom Brady is practically every QB. Brady’s having s terrible season; it’s annoying that the media needs to do a stupid comparison between Bad QB X and Brady to rub it in. Thought a PatsFans poster would be above that, but I forgot who we’re dealing with here.

I looked through your draft sheets last night. I’m glad you have a nice hobby and know a lot about draft prospects, but is your list that much better than the consensus lists published everywhere? Particularly at the QB position, seems like you way undergraded Mahomes and Watson, overgraded Luck, undergraded Wilson, etc.

Seems like you take a lot of credit for being really right about nailing these picks, but I don’t see anything special about your projections, as it seem like the hits and misses are basically the same as everyone else. I guess Lamar Jackson is your big grand slam pick? You did rank Darnold above him and it’s not like Jackson’s rating was that high compared to the consensus, which many of which had Jackson as a first round pick.

Maybe you can cite some data about how your draft evaluation is superior to what we can read in any Mel Kiper-ish rankings. It looks pretty much the same to me.

No I wasn't trying to get anyone upset but it doesn't take much does it?


Did you even bother looking to compare to others or using some context. These names jump out but at the time who had Jimmy G as QB2/2nd round? Darius Slay CB5/2nd Rd. Everyone knew abt Mack & Clowney but I had D-Law as a 1st Rd pick when many never heard of him. Jackson was called a WR/RB by "pros" but a hair away from being QB1.
Go look at 2014 WR rankings & see how many had Odell > Watkins. Odell didn't blow up until the combine but still wasn't on top of people boards.

I'm certainly not perfect but my grades are better then most. And I don't rank players so Idc who's in front of who. Jackson & Sam were almost tied. I'm simply looking to get that individual as close to where I think he'll be in the NFL.

I welcome any comparison & have no problem being judged but you should be some research before coming to a conclusion.

Most don't even make their stuff public. My phone is on 3% so I'll look when I can but one thing abt my stuff I know for sure is I don't miss nearly as bad as some.



Regarding my grades @BobDigital took a lot of time to objectively look at them. He has no dog in the fight... I wonder how much objectivity you'll use & research you do. I have no problem at all if anyone wants to compare & judge. Just be objective, know what you're talking abt & do a little research.

BaconGrudleCandy the draft God

Here's OTG site. Bringing this up bc I respect what he does & one of the few to actually put it out there.

2013 Scouting Reports
2014 Scouting Reports
2015 Scouting Reports
2016 Scouting Reports
2017 Scouting Reports
2018 Scouting Reports


NFL Draft 2018: Todd McShay's 10-year track record rating quarterbacks
McShay's QB grades - 2019 NFL draft class vs. first-rounders since 2016

NFL draft predictions: The worst takes ever, from pundits and fans
Mel Kiper's Top 10 NFL Draft Blunders

8 NFL Players Since 2000 That Mel Kiper Got Wrong And 7 He Actually Got Right

NFL Draft 2018: Mike Mayock's 10-year track record rating quarterbacks

Mike Mayock's top ten biggest draft misses of the past ten years ...

2014 NFL Draft: Taking a look at where Mike Mayock hit and missed over the years

The top 300 players in the 2015 NFL Draft - SBNation.com

2015 NFL Draft: Quarterback Rankings - WalterFootball.com

NFL Draft Big Board 2015: Matt Miller's Final Rankings | Bleacher Report ...

2015 NFL Draft prospect rankings by position - NFL.com

2015 NFL Draft: Mike Mayock's top 100 prospects - NFL.com

Ranking top 50 prospects for 2016 NFL Draft

Mike Mayock's 2017 NFL Draft top 100 prospect rankings - NFL.com

Hot 150: Gil Brandt's top-ranked prospects for 2017 NFL Draft

Top 5 2017 NFL Draft prospects by position

Daniel Jeremiah's top 50 prospects for 2017 NFL Draft 3.0

Ranking top 100 prospects available in 2017 NFL draft

NFL draft 2017 rankings: Best players available by position | SI.com
2017 NFL Draft Big Board: Matt Miller's Top Overall Player Rankings | Bleacher ...

Hot 100 + 40: Leonard Williams top prospect in 2015 NFL Draft

2012 NFL Draft Hot 100 + 25: Final ranking of top prospects - NFL.com

Hot 100 + 25: Luke Joeckel, Ziggy Ansah still top 2013 draft class - NFL.com

Gil Brandt's top 50 prospects for the 2014 NFL Draft

2014 NFL Draft: Mike Mayock's top 100 prospects - NFL.com

 

[SammyBlueCat]

Lamar is a work in progress as a pure passer however he is a student of the game.
Remember Tom Brady "tweeted" that Lamar is a "Beast" prior to his draft.
Barring a catastrophic injury (NOT CATastrophic mind you) he will be a force for years to come.

 

[jah]

Yes, you are trying to trigger people.

<Insert QB here> leads Tom Brady is practically every QB. Brady’s having s terrible season; it’s annoying that the media needs to do a stupid comparison between Bad QB X and Brady to rub it in. Thought a PatsFans poster would be above that, but I forgot who we’re dealing with here.

I looked through your draft sheets last night. I’m glad you have a nice hobby and know a lot about draft prospects, but is your list that much better than the consensus lists published everywhere? Particularly at the QB position, seems like you way undergraded Mahomes and Watson, overgraded Luck, undergraded Wilson, etc.

Seems like you take a lot of credit for being really right about nailing these picks, but I don’t see anything special about your projections, as it seem like the hits and misses are basically the same as everyone else. I guess Lamar Jackson is your big grand slam pick? You did rank Darnold above him and it’s not like Jackson’s rating was that high compared to the consensus, which many of which had Jackson as a first round pick.

Maybe you can cite some data about how your draft evaluation is superior to what we can read in any Mel Kiper-ish rankings. It looks pretty much the same to me.

Now I understand why the phrase "triggered by facts" gets thrown around.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Now I understand why the phrase "triggered by facts" gets thrown around.

Idk I honestly didn't mean anything by it. Obviously Brady might be having his worst year. I actually said as much the other day. It's just some info nothing more nothing less.

Brady is GOAT & needs no defending.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Lamar is a work in progress as a pure passer however he is a student of the game.
Remember Tom Brady "tweeted" that Lamar is a "Beast" prior to his draft.
Barring a catastrophic injury (NOT CATastrophic mind you) he will be a force for years to come.

Big time work on progress. Guy had some real concerns but his peaks are outrageous & he's a tremendously hard worker.

I'm not trying to slurp him or put on a cape. As a eval/grade he means no more/less than Anthony Miller or anyone else. I just don't like some of the misinformation or narratives out there & try to keep it somewhat even. People had no idea he ran a variation of our offense. No clue how well rounded he is & a lot of other stuff thrown around. I also really enjoy football & different styles. He's an electric player that forces you to defend the whole field. Just a different player & fun to watch. Nothing wrong w some fun.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

If Caff fell into the 20's he'd be great here..

So McCaffrey would be a good pick at 20 but not 19? Maybe you it’s possible that RBs have a higher bar, but each player needs to be evaluated on an individual basis? Naaahh...I’ve offered you that dignity-saving out multiple times.

If you’re saying McCaffrey (blue chip, obvious star) is a good pick but only for the 20s, you obviously cannot reconcile that Michel would be a good pick at 31, just two picks beyond the 20s. Given that, your RB draft value is clearly not on the same track as Belichick. What’s this about BB laughing one out of the room for picking a RB high?

 

[jah]

Idk I honestly didn't mean anything by it. Obviously Brady might be having his worst year. I actually said as much the other day. It's just some info nothing more nothing less.

Brady is GOAT & needs no defending.

Of course. I just thought it was pretty hilarious when you even explicitly inserted a disclaimer to drive home what point you weren't trying to make, someone got mad about exactly that.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

So McCaffrey would be a good pick at 20 but not 19? Maybe you it’s possible that RBs have a higher bar, but each player needs to be evaluated on an individual basis? Naaahh...I’ve offered you that dignity-saving out multiple times.

If you’re saying McCaffrey (blue chip, obvious star) is a good pick but only for the 20s, you obviously cannot reconcile that Michel would be a good pick at 31, just two picks beyond the 20s. Given that, your RB draft value is clearly not on the same track as Belichick. What’s this about BB laughing one out of the room for picking a RB high?

Jesus this is what you come back w? It barely makes sense. Yes I said of Caff fell into the 20's I wouldn't hate it. All due respect I've been watching before you heard his name & have a ton of respect for the player as showed in my post above. You're the one coming up with these foolish scenarios abt 19 or 20.

I've posted a ton draft rankings above. I'd welcome you to find more but it's obvious you're not capable of being objective or even know what you're talking abt in some cases. I'll add a few more but I'd love to know which are better/on point than mine on a consistent basis.

Again I have no problem w any poster comparing, contrasting, judging etc. Just be objective & fair.