Game Day Thread Official Post Game Thread- Giants @ Pats

[DaBruinz]

These are Conversions. His aDOT has gone down every year, but that’s likely a factor of playing with cam and a rookie QB.

First downs have gone up every year.
19 - 17
20 - 37
21 - 42

Thank you for confirming they were conversions.

His 1st downs have gone up because he's been targeted more. Look at his % of 1st downs. They've gone down.
Just like his YPR, his YBC/R, and his YAC/R.

As a "veteran" receiver last year, I guess my expectation was that he'd do more on his routes to ensure getting the first down. I felt that, more often than not, he cut his route short and then struggled to get the 1st down after the catch.

 

[mikey m]

I'm actually getting tired of pointing out that Meyers is mediocre. I get he's a hero for many of you. He's a good WR3 but got too many targets last year for too little impactful production. But this will be my last post dissing Meyers.


Not sure about the hero part, but he is my younger brother. So I’m admittedly biased. I don’t intend to change your mind, but I enjoy these debates nonetheless.

I’ve been following along here sense April 2019, and truly believe you all do a great job with the site. Pats fans are definitely passionate, and even the trash talkers keep it decent.

I’m the first person to admit that plays were left on the field last year. In fact he mentioned it last year in an interview that I’m his biggest critic.

1 Miami week 1 Bad throw but catchable ball

2 Miami week 1 Jmac knocked away a deep ball

3 Texans deep ball drop

4 Colts slot fade Drop

5 Saints 4 and 1 Fade from goal line

6 Jets slot fade knocked away

For every bad play I can list 3 where he made a winning playa.

I know you were focused on what he does as pass catcher , but I think it’s worth it to mention the intangibles he brings too. The Pats coaches value them more than any other team.

Durability- hasn’t missed a game or practice in 3 years

Professionalism - always says the right thing. Never seeks attention

Selflessness- Lead blocker on a chunk of Running plays digging out LBs that outweigh him by 50+lbs. Vrabel highlighted him as the best blocking WR

Work ethic - UDFA that earns his reps every year over Vets, High priced FA, and High draft picks.

Clutch- is listed the 2pt conversions, 3rd downs, and 4th downs on an earlier post.

Toughness - routinely takes big hits and holds on to “ empty stat receptions “ across the middle of field.

IQ- called out blitzes at line for mac and primary hot read
On the field, the production was impressive despite what FO thinks. The 26 year old in his first full season as a starter earning < 1M annually produced :
> +20 plays than all Pats player(RB/WR/TE)

16 WR NFL in receptions

29 WR NFL in Yards

2 TDs

2/2 2Ps

2.4% Drop Rate

19/25 First downs

4 /5 4th down

Overall I thought KB and Kobi played well as the two top targets. First time since ‘17 two pats guys went over 800 yards, and 1/ 11 teams with two WR over 800 yards last season. This pats team did it while averaging the 7th fewest pass attempts per game.

With that being said I still don’t understand the criticism of Kobi. If he truly is undeserving of the targets, Mac, Josh, or the “playmakers” that did not get open should receive most of your criticism.
The pats don’t run a lot of manufactured or schemed touches for kobi. (I agree that’s not a strength of his game, and it makes sense why they don’t.) Nor is he a high draft pick rookie or expensive FA acquisition. All of his targets are earned by #16 winning on routes and making tough catches downfield.

Maybe I don’t understand DVOA well enough, but I don’t believe it accounts for one the most important parts of being a WR.
The team at FO only tracks plays where the WR is targeted. It doesn’t take into account plays where a player runs a route but isn’t able to get open. This skews the rankings to players that are dynamic with the ball, but doesn’t detract for being a poor route runner.

Naturally, this would limit how well Jakobi would rank given his strengths and weaknesses as a player.
Another issues I’ve found with DVOA is that it doesn’t account for what the other players on the team are doing. Great example is the 40 yard catch KB had vs the titans. It started off as a 6 yard completion, and, thanks to a timely block by kobi, became a 40 yard TD. Huge DVOA boost for KB

Conversely Kobi had a 25 yard TD catch and run called back. He did everything right, but didn’t receive any +Dvoa because of a hold by a teammate 30 yards away.
I don’t love any of the Analytics sites, but it is worth noting that PFF ranked him as a top 25 WR in 2020 and top 35 in 21.

Long post, but hopefully that all make sense. I’m adding a few notable WR DVOA rankings below as well. Does the same logic apply to these players? DK metcalf ranked 60th. Is he barely a WR2 that produces empty stats and deserves less targets?Also what’s the ranking cutoff to qualify as a “playmaker”?

Kendrick Bourne - 1

Byron Pringle - 2

Brandon Cooks 44

AJ Brown -51

Terry Mccluarin - 52

Stefon Diggs - 53

Dk Metcalf - 60

Kennan Allen - 61

Diontae Johnson - 65

Allen Robinson -69

Jarvis Landry - 71

Jakobi Meyers - 72

DJ Moore - 73

Odell Beckham -76

Hollywood Brown - 78

Calvin Ridley - 82

Kenny Golladay - 84

Thanks for the post, cool to have you here. Hopefully all of us recognize the contributions to this team and hard work Jakobi has put in to carve out a role. My gripes and anyone else's should be primarily about how central to the offense he should be compared to the other pass catchers. As you point out, he does all the things that don't show up in the stat sheet right and has earned nothing but respect. Personally, I would like to see him more in the role that Amendola played during his time here: great saftey blanket and 3rd down specialist, but not dominating the target share.

 

[Wozzy]

Thanks for the post, cool to have you here. Hopefully all of us recognize the contributions to this team and hard work Jakobi has put in to carve out a role. My gripes and anyone else's should be primarily about how central to the offense he should be compared to the other pass catchers. As you point out, he does all the things that don't show up in the stat sheet right and has earned nothing but respect. Personally, I would like to see him more in the role that Amendola played during his time here: great saftey blanket and 3rd down specialist, but not dominating the target share.

I like to do player comparisons with incoming rookies based on athleticism. I'll generally find two examples, one will be a big upside comparison, another will be a mid tier comparison... beyond that we're talking jag level players so they're not worth talking about.

When they brought Meyers in as a rookie, my instant big upside comparison was Mohamed Sanu. He was a good player, a reliable player, great blocker along with a consistent receiver.

This isn't really about "like," I liked Meyers and was pounding the table for our QB to get him more involved in 2019 when our WR options weren't as varied. That being said my "big upside" comparisons for Nixon and Wilkerson are much higher caliber players. I hesitate to use these upside comparisons because dopes here will come back in a year and say "you said he would become player X," when that is exactly what I never say about rookies. Rookies are scratch tickets, the draft is a crapshoot... this is my constant refrain. Saying someone is athletically similar to another player is not saying they'll become the same player... saying Bethel Johnson was fast is not inaccurate.

All that being said if I knew I could only roster 5-6 WR's at most, would I rather roster and pay Mohamed Sanu (Meyers) big money... or potentially Stefon Diggs (Nixon) or Greg Jennings (Wilkerson)?

Nixon and Wilkerson are more athletically gifted than Meyers, and Meyers has a solid reputation around the league. In contract talks he might get more than he's actually worth. He's been a good player for the Pats, they still shouldn't overpay him.

 

[jah]

I like to do player comparisons with incoming rookies based on athleticism. I'll generally find two examples, one will be a big upside comparison, another will be a mid tier comparison... beyond that we're talking jag level players so they're not worth talking about.

When they brought Meyers in as a rookie, my instant big upside comparison was Mohamed Sanu. He was a good player, a reliable player, great blocker along with a consistent receiver.

This isn't really about "like," I liked Meyers and was pounding the table for our QB to get him more involved in 2019 when our WR options weren't as varied. That being said my "big upside" comparisons for Nixon and Wilkerson are much higher caliber players. I hesitate to use these upside comparisons because dopes here will come back in a year and say "you said he would become player X," when that is exactly what I never say about rookies. Rookies are scratch tickets, the draft is a crapshoot... this is my constant refrain. Saying someone is athletically similar to another player is not saying they'll become the same player... saying Bethel Johnson was fast is not inaccurate.

All that being said if I knew I could only roster 5-6 WR's at most, would I rather roster and pay Mohamed Sanu (Meyers) big money... or potentially Stefon Diggs (Nixon) or Greg Jennings (Wilkerson)?

Nixon and Wilkerson are more athletically gifted than Meyers, and Meyers has a solid reputation around the league. In contract talks he might get more than he's actually worth. He's been a good player for the Pats, they still shouldn't overpay him.

I think what I've never been able to understand is what makes Wilkerson and Nixon so much more "gifted" than Meyers. To me, they all seem like marginal talents, but only one has produced in the NFL. We're talking 2 undrafted players and a 7th round pick.

 

[n6249c]

I think what I've never been able to understand is what makes Wilkerson and Nixon so much more "gifted" than Meyers. To me, they all seem like marginal talents, but only one has produced in the NFL. We're talking 2 undrafted players and a 7th round pick.

I think most of it is not even about talent. It’s who has had opportunities and what have they done with them. Athleticism is one part of getting opportunities, but there’s also attitude, availability, diligence, and just plain luck. Being in the right place at the right time. One guy may not be better on any of those factors but gets the opportunity first and does well enough with it to have an advantage over the other guys.

There‘s the mental aspect, confidence and instincts. Does a player have to think, or is it instinctual? And the physical, are they powerful or do they have quick twitch reactions?

 

[Ochmed Jones]

Post preseason game dead weight on the roster:

Slowjuan Williams takes the lead!
Keane and assyassy would challenge him, but they keep breaking down more often than a 1978 ford pinto.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

SloJuan ain’t going anywhere. He got his hands on the famous photos that allowed Jake Bequette to stick around for 5 years

 

[Patsgofor4]

Mac Jones, Patriots express confidence in 'new offense' despite growing pains

Streamlining the scheme and altering verbiage has led to on-field struggles as Jones and his teammates work to improve their communication.

www.espn.com

The Pats have been looking for a LB with legit coverage skills for as long as I can remember. If Wilson can do that and also not be a liability versus the run (from what I’ve read and seen, he is a sure and willing tackler), that would be huge and would also put the Wino pick in a different light. IF Cajuste finally stays healthy and plays to the potential that he showed at WVU (still a big if) and either takes the starting RT job from Wynn or is a dependable swing tackle for them this year, that would put the 2019 draft as a whole in a different light.



Ron Wolf once said that he would considered a draft to be successful if he hit on a third of the picks. 2019 will never be considered a great draft by any measure but if they ended up with significant contributions from 4 out of the 10 picks (Wilson subbing for Wino) that would be acceptable to me.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Mac Jones, Patriots express confidence in 'new offense' despite growing pains

Streamlining the scheme and altering verbiage has led to on-field struggles as Jones and his teammates work to improve their communication.

www.espn.com

View attachment 44541

Witnessing the challenging transition sparked obvious questions: Why tear down an offense that Jones thrived in as a rookie? And what exactly are the changes that players are struggling to adjust to?

The primary motivation for the change, according to those familiar with Belichick's thinking, was to make it easier on players. The volume of the old system had grown so much over 20-plus years -- with Tom Brady a huge part of it, and then specific Cam Newton-based wrinkles in 2020 adding another layer to navigate -- so the time seemed right to streamline it and return more to the original roots.

 

[Wozzy]

I think what I've never been able to understand is what makes Wilkerson and Nixon so much more "gifted" than Meyers. To me, they all seem like marginal talents, but only one has produced in the NFL. We're talking 2 undrafted players and a 7th round pick.

Measurables.... speed, mobility, explosion and strength.

If Wilkerson and Nixon can understand the cerebral part go the WR position, which they seemingly do now, then they are faster and more dangerous weapons than Meyers.

 

[Ring 6]

Measurables.... speed, mobility, explosion and strength.

If Wilkerson and Nixon can understand the cerebral part go the WR position, which they seemingly do now, then they are faster and more dangerous weapons than Meyers.

But they are playing football not doing obstacle course races.
Your post implies the cerebral part isn’t a skill and they just need to understand it like a go/no go gauge while a few 100s of a second running 40 yards on a track makes all the difference in the world.
Technique, intelligence, knowledge, attitude, effort, drive, etc gave a lot more to do with success than differences in “measurable” among players who all fit the basic mode of required speed, size, strength, etc.
Steve Largent, Wes Welker, Wayne Chrebet, Jerry Rice, Chris Hogan, Ben Coates, Hines Ward, Cooper Kupp and many others outperformed players with better measurables

 

[Wozzy]

But they are playing football not doing obstacle course races.
Your post implies the cerebral part isn’t a skill and they just need to understand it like a go/no go gauge while a few 100s of a second running 40 yards on a track makes all the difference in the world.
Technique, intelligence, knowledge, attitude, effort, drive, etc gave a lot more to do with success than differences in “measurable” among players who all fit the basic mode of required speed, size, strength, etc.
Steve Largent, Wes Welker, Wayne Chrebet, Jerry Rice, Chris Hogan, Ben Coates, Hines Ward, Cooper Kupp and many others outperformed players with better measurables

Meyers is slow, slower than everybody mentioned above… there’s no rationalization that’s going to change that.

 

[Ring 6]

Meyers is slow, slower than everybody mentioned above… there’s no rationalization that’s going to change that.

He gets open and makes catches. No rationalization is going to change that.
That skill set is more important than speed.

 

[Ring 6]

Meyers is slow, slower than everybody mentioned above… there’s no rationalization that’s going to change that.

His 40 time was faster than Ben Coates, Jerry Rice, Wes Welker, Steve Largent, 0.01 slower than Cooper Kupp.
If it was about measurables those guys wouldn’t have been in the league and David Boston and Chad Jackson would be in the HOF.

 

[Wozzy]

His 40 time was faster than Ben Coates, Jerry Rice, Wes Welker, Steve Largent, 0.01 slower than Cooper Kupp.
If it was about measurables those guys wouldn’t have been in the league and David Boston and Chad Jackson would be in the HOF.

Ben Coates… did you just compare him to a TE?

Meyers ran a 4.63, that was slower than everyone else you mentioned. Moreover guys like Welker and Kupp have proven to be much faster than their forty times, or have the ability to get to full speed quickly,

If Meyers was genuinely faster than his forty times we’d see it in his yards after catch, yards per reception and he’s probably score some TD’s.

Also side note: Jerry Rice ran a 4.5 forty at the first combine in history, and according to everyone who attended it was a sht show. They ran at near dark and it was freezing cold and rainy. According to coaches he regularly ran a 4.4 forty.

 

[Wozzy]

He gets open and makes catches. No rationalization is going to change that.
That skill set is more important than speed.

Nobody argued against that, in fact I reinforced that very thing when I suggested Nixon and Wilkerson needed to show us the goods before moving on from Meyers.

Once they prove that, they’re faster than Meyers… I can’t believe this is such a controversial take. In other news water is still wet, sand is still coarse and the sky is still blue.

 

[Family]

Measurables.... speed, mobility, explosion and strength.

If Wilkerson and Nixon can understand the cerebral part go the WR position, which they seemingly do now, then they are faster and more dangerous weapons than Meyers.

Maybe you consider holding on to the ball a cerebral part of the game, but that reliability is what I think Meyers can do and Wilkerson/Nixon have not consistently done.

I agree with you now that Wilkerson will be picked up. There's just too much talent, more than both Nixon and Meyers IMO. I think Nixon makes the practice squad.

I would keep six WR's (7 with Slater) and cut Butler with maybe another vet who could probably come back with the new rules.

 

[Wozzy]

Maybe you consider holding on to the ball a cerebral part of the game, but that reliability is what I think Meyers can do and Wilkerson/Nixon have not consistently done.

I agree with you now that Wilkerson will be picked up. There's just too much talent, more than both Nixon and Meyers IMO. I think Nixon makes the practice squad.

I would keep six WR's (7 with Slater) and cut Butler with maybe another vet who could probably come back with the new rules.

Nixon and Wilkerson are doing right now what they haven’t done to this point. A lack of opportunity or taking time to develop isn’t an inability to do something.

They won’t keep 7 WR’s… mark it down. I don’t think they’ve ever rostered more than 6 and usually roster 5. All of this will be special teams dependent.

 

[rochrist]

Ben Coates… did you just compare him to a TE?

Meyers ran a 4.63, that was slower than everyone else you mentioned. Moreover guys like Welker and Kupp have proven to be much faster than their forty times, or have the ability to get to full speed quickly,

If Meyers was genuinely faster than his forty times we’d see it in his yards after catch, yards per reception and he’s probably score some TD’s.

Also side note: Jerry Rice ran a 4.5 forty at the first combine in history, and according to everyone who attended it was a sht show. They ran at near dark and it was freezing cold and rainy. According to coaches he regularly ran a 4.4 forty.

You keep saying that, knowing you're wrong. You're the one that listed Ben Coates. You're the one ignoring that Jerry Rice's official 40 time was 4.71. He's faster than Chrebet who certainly worked out all right. Wes Welker ran a 4.65 40. Steve Largen ran a 4.7 40. Those are facts, no rationalization is going to change them.

 

[Zuma]

These are good discussions about Meyers IMO.