Not Taking the Wind is a Fireable Offense

[Ring 6]

Rham has broken only 7 tackles to Gibson's 5. Rham has twice as many carries.

Rham averages 1.7 yards after contact to Gibson's 1.6.

Rham has 2.2 yards after contact to Gibson's 2.5.

2024 NFL Advanced Rushing | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Check out the 2024 NFL Advanced Rushing Stats and more on Pro-football-reference.com

www.pro-football-reference.com

Stevenson breaks that many tackles a game.
Gibsons yac is also overstated by that one run.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Stevenson breaks that many tackles a game.
Gibsons yac is also overstated by that one run.

No, that's his total.

 

[Ring 6]

No, that's his total.

That’s not accurate based upon the actual plays in the actual games.

 

[Ian]

Again, you’re feeling that nothing backs up.
I never berated you.

Both can be true that Kraft is cheap and Wolf did a terrible job in free agency.


It’s not a matter of whether i like Wolf or not, it’s a matter of evaluating the job he has done.
We both agree the results are terrible. The difference is I expect him to do well or be replaced and you think a bad job is good because you have created so many excuses for him that he has absolutely no accountability.

You think Wolf only inquired on 9 players out of the entire class of players...I sort of can't believe you're actually on board with that. You truly believe he didn't kick the tires and gauge interest from anybody else. Like, at all?

And there have been plenty of reports about their issues in free agency when it came to attracting players. You make it sound like Ridley's situation was an anomaly when it came to how he felt about coming here. And you saw how Aiyuk reacted. Those two guys were absolutely not outliers and it's not just me who has said it.

 

[Ian]

Again, you’re feeling that nothing backs up.
I never berated you.

Both can be true that Kraft is cheap and Wolf did a terrible job in free agency.


It’s not a matter of whether i like Wolf or not, it’s a matter of evaluating the job he has done.
We both agree the results are terrible. The difference is I expect him to do well or be replaced and you think a bad job is good because you have created so many excuses for him that he has absolutely no accountability.

Re-reading some of my earlier posts, I was giving you a hard time and smiling as I was typing a lot of it. Realized they came off a little more abrasive than I would have liked, so I apologize. Although I still can't believe you think Wolf sat on his hands for two months and didn't even pick up the phone on anyone else. I was kidding initially, and I'm a little stunned you're serious about that.

 

[Brotherblues]

Re-reading some of my earlier posts, I was giving you a hard time and smiling as I was typing a lot of it. Realized they came off a little more abrasive than I would have liked, so I apologize. Although I still can't believe you think Wolf sat on his hands for two months and didn't even pick up the phone on anyone else. I was kidding initially, and I'm a little stunned you're serious about that.

You've made a grave error underestimating Andy's seriousness.

If you ever think Andy is not serious... think again.

 

[upstater1]

NFL execs don't consider him in the conversation among the best.

"ESPN recently conducted a vote with NFL coaches, executives, and scouts to analyze the league's talent pool on the interior offensive lineman, where Onwenu managed to get some consideration himself. He didn't manage to place within the top ten of the rankings but landed a spot within the seven honorable mentions."

NFL Execs & Coaches Stack Up Patriots' Mike Onwenu Against Top IOLs

He's way too overhyped here.

Let him play his position for heaven's sake instead of moving him all over the line.

We all know he's not one of the top RTs in football, but that's not the point here.

 

[Huckleberry1]

The new collaboration apologists are working overtime. (Insert eye roll here)

Lmao. You are the king of the “ collaboration” apologists. To the degree where you actually believe Belichick’s staff were telling him what to do. And you clam as “ proof” Kraft saying he wanted to see more collaboration, but then, when Kraft says that Belichick had final say on everything you say” well you can’t believe a word Kraft says.”

 

[Wozzy]

Lmao. You are the king of the “ collaboration” apologists. To the degree where you actually believe Belichick’s staff were telling him what to do. And you clam as “ proof” Kraft saying he wanted to see more collaboration, but then, when Kraft says that Belichick had final say on everything you say” well you can’t believe a word Kraft says.”

That ^ is an incomprehensible word salad of nonsense.

Bob announced collaboration entering the 2021 season at the owners meeting. That's not a wozzy conspiracy, or something I imagined, we all heard him say it. Now you want us to accept BB had total control, more control than the owner of the team... laughable.

 

[Huckleberry1]

That ^ is an incomprehensible word salad of nonsense.

Bob announced collaboration entering the 2021 season at the owners meeting. That's not a wozzy conspiracy, or something I imagined, we all heard him say it. Now you want us to accept BB had total control, more control than the owner of the team... laughable.

Bob said Bill always had total control, just a few weeks ago.

 

[Huckleberry1]

That ^ is an incomprehensible word salad of nonsense.

Bob announced collaboration entering the 2021 season at the owners meeting. That's not a wozzy conspiracy, or something I imagined, we all heard him say it. Now you want us to accept BB had total control, more control than the owner of the team... laughable.

Proving my point again. When Kraft said he wanted to see more collaboration you took it as as “ proof@ Belichick’s subordinates were in charge, when he says “ Bill always had total control,” you the say “ you can’t believe a word Kraft says.” Truth is you just believe what you want to believe, and pretend you have deep inside knowledge.

 

[p8ryts]

Proving my point again. When Kraft said he wanted to see more collaboration you took it as as “ proof@ Belichick’s subordinates were in charge, when he says “ Bill always had total control,” you the say “ you can’t believe a word Kraft says.” Truth is you just believe what you want to believe, and pretend you have deep inside knowledge.

Probably a little truth for everyone here. BB probably did open up to more from the scouts and probably made the final decision including that input. Kraft should have just kept his nose out of the football operation. We always had a top team until Kraft sabotaged BB's plan and let emotion take over.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Probably a little truth for everyone here. BB probably did open up to more from the scouts and probably made the final decision including that input. Kraft should have just kept his nose out of the football operation. We always had a top team until Kraft sabotaged BB's plan and let emotion take over.

I have never argued that Belichick didn’t start taking more input from his staff, I know for a fact that he gave credit to Wolf for making the Barmore trade, and he let Ernie Adams pick a player in Adams last draft with the team. My only point has been that Belichick always had the final say, and thus the accountability that goes with that responsibility. Wozzy, on the other hand, has been claiming that Belichick’s bad decisions were actually decisions made by his underlings, who overruled him, which is complete fantasy.

 

[TommyD4207]

The only guys who would sign are obviously guys with limited options. Guys in demand have better options, and they don't go to 4-12 teams without a quarterback or an established coach.

And the teams you mentioned also at least had a starting quarterback (the Patriots had Mac Jones and Bailey Zappe at the start of free agency and no one was leaving their team to go and play with Brissett - who didn't sign until after free agency started) Not great QBs, but guys who at least had better numbers than those two players. They also have established coaches.

And I said this to you previously, but you act like Wolf targeted the handful of guys they did sign and then sat on his hands for two months and "didn't try" for anyone else. I said to you the last time we discussed this that if that's the case, he should absolutely be fired. But I highly doubt that was the case. And not every free agent who they inquire about gets reported.

The Patriots had the absolute league-worst situation heading into March compared to every other team in the league. That's why no one wanted to come here. I mean, had they kept Belichick, maybe he could have swayed one of those guys to come here, but he had at least had Super Bowl rings on his resume. They had Jerod Mayo, Mac Jones, and Zappe and no one for Wolf to sell them on, short of resetting the market at their positions to make it worth their while to come here. And that would have caused an issue when it came to keeping guys in-house down the road.

Next March, if he keeps going at this rate, Maye will hopefully be the difference, and they'll have better luck this time around. But they were terrible at the end of last season. I know you don't seem to believe it, but Mayo, Jones, and Zappe weren't moving the needle. The Titans, Panthers, and Commanders - as crazy as it sounds - were actually more attractive options at the time. That's how low it all sank to, unfortunately.

I hope you have a good chiropractor, Ian. It must get pretty heavy carrying all this water.

 

[Ring 6]

You think Wolf only inquired on 9 players out of the entire class of players...I sort of can't believe you're actually on board with that. You truly believe he didn't kick the tires and gauge interest from anybody else. Like, at all?

And there have been plenty of reports about their issues in free agency when it came to attracting players. You make it sound like Ridley's situation was an anomaly when it came to how he felt about coming here. And you saw how Aiyuk reacted. Those two guys were absolutely not outliers and it's not just me who has said it.

I think the evidence suggests that’s roughly what he did.
Look at each position/unit. He felt those guys and his draft picks fixed them. Why would he keep going and sign more guys if he felt he hit the guys he wanted?

Let’s look.

QB He chose Brissett and lived with that mistake. He drafted Maye
RB He chose Gibson
OT he told us both chunks and Wallace could be good LTs. Why get another?
IOL brought back everyone from last year, thought leverette was a good pickup, drafted a G
TE Signed every player at the position
WR His choice was Osborne and he drafted 2 Another WR would have made Osborn a bubble guy. Only can see he tried for one other and failed.

DL Let guy walk and pursued bargain basement guys. No attempt we know of to bring in anyone.
OLB Did nothing ti replace Judon evidently because he was counting on him.
Somewhere in that mix seems to be uncertainty about what White role would be, and having to play him in Judons spot weakened the DL.
ILB Added Takitaki felt he was set
CB No attempt call it bring anyone in, clearly he was feeling set.
S Got bargain basement Hawkins for S3, with Mapu as S4. He felt there was no need.


What I am saying here is if you look at what he did to build the roster it seems clear he felt he either filled every hole or didn’t think it was a hole
Objectively it’s hard to argue that. When you add the lack of any other visits or reported interest or negotiation it seems Wolf felt he had succeeded.


At some point you feel you have filled your needs and are done.
I’m not saying he was lazy I’m saying he horrifically badly evaluated free agency and got the guys he wanted but the guys he wanted made us worse than the 4-13 team he was trying to improve.
I saw it while out was happening. We didn’t improve a single spot on the field dramatically (except with the 3rd pick) and Wolf thought we had.
Even while the OL was melting down he defended it and said we have all the pieces we need. I think he felt after signing 9 (or whatever the number was) guys and resigning our own, that he was happy with the roster.
That scares me about his ability to do this job.

 

[Ring 6]

Re-reading some of my earlier posts, I was giving you a hard time and smiling as I was typing a lot of it. Realized they came off a little more abrasive than I would have liked, so I apologize. Although I still can't believe you think Wolf sat on his hands for two months and didn't even pick up the phone on anyone else. I was kidding initially, and I'm a little stunned you're serious about that.

S’all Good man

 

[Ian]

I think the evidence suggests that’s roughly what he did.
Look at each position/unit. He felt those guys and his draft picks fixed them. Why would he keep going and sign more guys if he felt he hit the guys he wanted?

Let’s look.

QB He chose Brissett and lived with that mistake. He drafted Maye
RB He chose Gibson
OT he told us both chunks and Wallace could be good LTs. Why get another?
IOL brought back everyone from last year, thought leverette was a good pickup, drafted a G
TE Signed every player at the position
WR His choice was Osborne and he drafted 2 Another WR would have made Osborn a bubble guy. Only can see he tried for one other and failed.

DL Let guy walk and pursued bargain basement guys. No attempt we know of to bring in anyone.
OLB Did nothing ti replace Judon evidently because he was counting on him.
Somewhere in that mix seems to be uncertainty about what White role would be, and having to play him in Judons spot weakened the DL.
ILB Added Takitaki felt he was set
CB No attempt call it bring anyone in, clearly he was feeling set.
S Got bargain basement Hawkins for S3, with Mapu as S4. He felt there was no need.


What I am saying here is if you look at what he did to build the roster it seems clear he felt he either filled every hole or didn’t think it was a hole
Objectively it’s hard to argue that. When you add the lack of any other visits or reported interest or negotiation it seems Wolf felt he had succeeded.


At some point you feel you have filled your needs and are done.
I’m not saying he was lazy I’m saying he horrifically badly evaluated free agency and got the guys he wanted but the guys he wanted made us worse than the 4-13 team he was trying to improve.
I saw it while out was happening. We didn’t improve a single spot on the field dramatically (except with the 3rd pick) and Wolf thought we had.
Even while the OL was melting down he defended it and said we have all the pieces we need. I think he felt after signing 9 (or whatever the number was) guys and resigning our own, that he was happy with the roster.
That scares me about his ability to do this job.

My point is, I don't feel like those are the only guys he inquired about. You make it sound like out of the 100+ players available, those are the only ones he narrowed down to and he didn't even try with the other top-tier or upper-mid-level players, save for Ridley. That would be egregious on levels I can't even begin to describe, and this is where you and I - and I guess a few others - will have to agree to disagree. I went back and watched/listened to multiple press conferences going back to his days in Cleveland, Green Bay, etc. ahead of the draft and back in the spring. He's too smart to be that inept.

I get what he said regarding Okorafor and I do believe him when it came to Wallace, but that was - I'm guessing - supposed to be a long-term goal and not a 2024 thing. I think he thought Okorafor could get them through 2024 and maybe Wallace might compete for LT maybe by midseason or beyond. My one knock on Wolf is taking Okorafor at his word and signing him to start with. But they needed depth, and nobody else, aside from Lowe, ended up emerging out of Calvin Anderson, Tyrone Wheatley, and whoever else I'm forgetting.

Again, he's not inept enough where he looked at that many players and settled on who they signed. My guess is he inquired on other guys, they said no, and he moved on. It sucks - but is what it is. And we've seen enough evidence, and enough has been reported, where that was essentially the story of this offseason when it came to free agents. As I said, this isn't just my opinion. And I feel this way based on what we heard during March and April.

And as I said, you went from "Kraft is cheap, and that's why Wolf didn't sign anybody" to "Wolf sat on his hands and didn't call anybody but the stiffs they've ended up with." I'm sorry, but that would be grounds for immediate termination, and his past suggests he's not that stupid.

 

[Ring 6]

My point is, I don't feel like those are the only guys he inquired about. You make it sound like out of the 100+ players available, those are the only ones he narrowed down to and he didn't even try with the other top-tier or upper-mid-level players, save for Ridley. That would be egregious on levels I can't even begin to describe, and this is where you and I - and I guess a few others - will have to agree to disagree. I went back and watched/listened to multiple press conferences going back to his days in Cleveland, Green Bay, etc. ahead of the draft and back in the spring. He's too smart to be that inept.

I get what he said regarding Okorafor and I do believe him when it came to Wallace, but that was - I'm guessing - supposed to be a long-term goal and not a 2024 thing. I think he thought Okorafor could get them through 2024 and maybe Wallace might compete for LT maybe by midseason or beyond. My one knock on Wolf is taking Okorafor at his word and signing him to start with. But they needed depth, and nobody else, aside from Lowe, ended up emerging out of Calvin Anderson, Tyrone Wheatley, and whoever else I'm forgetting.

Again, he's not inept enough where he looked at that many players and settled on who they signed. My guess is he inquired on other guys, they said no, and he moved on. It sucks - but is what it is. And we've seen enough evidence, and enough has been reported, where that was essentially the story of this offseason when it came to free agents. As I said, this isn't just my opinion. And I feel this way based on what we heard during March and April.

And as I said, you went from "Kraft is cheap, and that's why Wolf didn't sign anybody" to "Wolf sat on his hands and didn't call anybody but the stiffs they've ended up with." I'm sorry, but that would be grounds for immediate termination, and his past suggests he's not that stupid.

Yes that is what it looks like. He signed those guys pretty early. We know of no one he pursued and didn’t get except Ridley. You dint think there would be any reports at all?
When did I say he was stupid? Im saying he had a plan and executed it but the plan was bad and I question his ability to evaluate players and build a roster. He has no experience to go on, this was his first effort and it was terrible.

When you are a 4-13 team (who according to you no free agent wanted to sign with) making a draft pick at the top of the 3rd round, are you really picking a guy who can’t compete to play in year 1? Is that sound roster building?

You are basing everything on a belief that what he did must not be what he wanted to do because that would make him incompetent and you refuse to accept he could be incompetent rather than showing me any competence.

You misquoted me and mischaracterized my argument with both of those comments. It doesn’t make much sense to have a discussion of you want to replace my viewpoint with one you make up.

 

[Ian]

Yes that is what it looks like. He signed those guys pretty early. We know of no one he pursued and didn’t get except Ridley. You dint think there would be any reports at all?

Again, if you think he went through that entire group of free agents and only picked up for those guys, I don't know what to tell you. And if you think they hang up from every call (especially on just a feeler call to gauge a player's interest and have preliminary talks) and leak it to the media, I highly doubt that's the case. Even if you don't believe me, go back through the other 32 teams and see if you can find reports of every person they inquired on. It doesn't happen. And GMs don't just target the guys they ultimately sign and not inquire about other players. They spend most days on the phone all day during that span.

When did I say he was stupid? Im saying he had a plan and executed it but the plan was bad and I question his ability to evaluate players and build a roster. He has no experience to go on, this was his first effort and it was terrible.

I never said you said he was stupid. I said he wasn't stupid enough to do that.

When you are a 4-13 team (who according to you no free agent wanted to sign with) making a draft pick at the top of the 3rd round, are you really picking a guy who can’t compete to play in year 1? Is that sound roster building?

They picked Polk ahead of a tackle, which is probably the only real error you can blame him for in terms of immediate need. At the same time, they had no weapons on offense, and the fan base was screaming about that (and I'm sure there was likely some pressure from ownership), so he took a shot there (and was ready to trade up in round one for another).

At the end of the day, he gambled on one (or any) of the veterans to be able to start the season at LT and letting Wallace develop to potentially play later in the year. I think most of us feel like there was no way this entire group could be fixed in one offseason. You've said a bunch that wasn't the case. And you don't believe that other players didn't want to come here, despite reports from Curran, Reiss, Perry, Bedard, Daniels, Kyed, etc. to the contrary.

You are basing everything on a belief that what he did must not be what he wanted to do because that would make him incompetent and you refuse to accept he could be incompetent rather than showing me any competence.

I'm making an educated guess based on what I said above.

You misquoted me and mischaracterized my argument with both of those comments. It doesn’t make much sense to have a discussion of you want to replace my viewpoint with one you make up.

No, I didn't misquote you. You misquoted me.

 

[Ring 6]

Again, if you think he went through that entire group of free agents and only picked up for those guys, I don't know what to tell you. And if you think they hang up from every call (especially on just a feeler call to gauge a player's interest and have preliminary talks) and leak it to the media, I highly doubt that's the case. Even if you don't believe me, go back through the other 32 teams and see if you can find reports of every person they inquired on. It doesn't happen. And GMs don't just target the guys they ultimately sign and not inquire about other players. They spend most days on the phone all day during that span.

I never said you said he was stupid. I said he wasn't stupid enough to do that.

They picked Polk ahead of a tackle, which is probably the only real error you can blame him for in terms of immediate need. At the same time, they had no weapons on offense, and the fan base was screaming about that (and I'm sure there was likely some pressure from ownership), so he took a shot there (and was ready to trade up in round one for another).

At the end of the day, he gambled on one (or any) of the veterans to be able to start the season at LT and letting Wallace develop to potentially play later in the year. I think most of us feel like there was no way this entire group could be fixed in one offseason. You've said a bunch that wasn't the case. And you don't believe that other players didn't want to come here, despite reports from Curran, Reiss, Perry, Bedard, Daniels, Kyed, etc. to the contrary.

I'm making an educated guess based on what I said above.

No, I didn't misquote you. You misquoted me.

Every team has many reports of pursuing players, visits, making offers, interest, etc etc.
you’ve shown me nothing to refute what it clearly looks like, these Re the guys he wanted and the team he wanted to build.

Ugh. Saying he isn’t stupid enough to do what I clearly see he did is the same thing saying I’m calling him stupid.

Wait, you are blaming his awful draft pick on fans and ownership.
My god is he your cousin? I have literally never seen a poster make more excuse for a guy than you are making for him. Everything isn’t his fault. What kind of leader need excuses made for everything he touches?

There are not reports that no players wanted to come here. There may be reports than we weren’t the top destination of a few players but there were over 100 who could have helped us.

Of course you misquoted me, unless you think your opinion on what my point of view is would be more accurate than my own.