Not Taking the Wind is a Fireable Offense

[Ian]

Will Levis and Bryce young are worse than “I’ll draft a qb at 3 and sign a vet” Everyone knew we were getting Maye.

And Maye was considered the most raw and not immediately ready to start out of the top three players.

Mayo could tough being part of the greatest dynasty ever and building on the tradition with proven support from ownership and fans. What are Callahan Quinn and the guy no one ever heard of in Carolina offering. You know this is a bad argument for you, don’t you?

You may want to look at Carolina's coaching staff.

Panthers Coaching Staff | Carolina Panthers - Panthers.com

www.panthers.com

They're guys who have been around.

Again, perception back then was all that mattered, and no one knew who Mayo was, which is why Wolf had to play such a significant role in helping him build the staff.

I’m saying all the evidence says that’s exactly what Wolf did.

Yes. He grabbed those few guys, and said "I'm good, we'll keep the rest for next year" and then sat around for two months until the draft and didn't even approach anyone else.

Again, if that's the case, he absolutely should be shown the door.

He has also stated that “all the pieces are there” for the OL and now waiver wire guys start. Do you think he was fine with the OL in March thru June?
It’s not that he signed no one it’s that he signed bad players. The problem is he didn’t realize they were bad. He thought Chunks, Levertte, the awful ol draft picks, solved the OL, Bourne, Osborne and the awful WR picks solved WR, Gibson solved RB, Brissett solved QB. Hooper solved TE.
Why wouldn’t he sit tight if he thought his signings fixed it?

On defense he signed non descript DTs because he appears to not value that position. He thought Uche and Jennings both playing full time instead of platooning fixed OLB so he traded Judon. He thought McMillan and Takitaki could play LB
He thought Hawkins was S 3 and he didn’t need a 4th. He thought Austin was a cb3.

Every piece of evidence says he built the team he wanted.

You think players signed with the teams that picked before us and Tennessee to get playoff checks. Come on.

I think you're in denial in terms of how bad the situation was here compared to elsewhere. They picked better situations/weather/and short-term promise, and yes, postseason incentives matter to players.

You are arguing no one would ever come here but they would love Carolina because a new coach might turn around a terrible qb. And they wanted to cash playoff checks.

I might think this is something more than you scrambling to come up with excuses for wolf if you could show any evidence at all that any of your assumptions are true. Can you find a single player who said they didn’t want to play here? Outside of a handful of aging vets, players regularly sign with bad teams, and have ever since free agency began.

We should probably just agree to disagree because you seem to have a belief and don’t care whether it’s supported by facts or not, so we won’t get anywhere with me looking at and for facts.

Yes, you're ignoring the fact they were beyond terrible back in March, and I'm ignoring the fact players should apparently overlook that and accept similar or slightly above deals to come here in lieu of a still terrible, yet less terrible situation.

You're correct. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[captain stone]

Maybe it's the 20 other seasons

That was Then. This is Now.

 

[TheRainMaker]

800 yards in 17 games is horrendous

Especially in this era of the NFL. I did warn people that he wasn't going to do well in this offense because of scheme, OL and lack of passing game. Another reason why the contract his got was pre-mature.

 

[Ring 6]

And Maye was considered the most raw and not immediately ready to start out of the top three players.

You may want to look at Carolina's coaching staff.

Panthers Coaching Staff | Carolina Panthers - Panthers.com

www.panthers.com

They're guys who have been around.

Again, perception back then was all that mattered, and no one knew who Mayo was, which is why Wolf had to play such a significant role in helping him build the staff.

Yes. He grabbed those few guys, and said "I'm good, we'll keep the rest for next year" and then sat around for two months until the draft and didn't even approach anyone else.

Again, if that's the case, he absolutely should be shown the door.

I think you're in denial in terms of how bad the situation was here compared to elsewhere. They picked better situations/weather/and short-term promise, and yes, postseason incentives matter to players.

Yes, you're ignoring the fact they were beyond terrible back in March, and I'm ignoring the fact players should apparently overlook that and accept similar or slightly above deals to come here in lieu of a still terrible, yet less terrible situation.

You're correct. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

A one year coordinator is going to be a draw for free agents and a pro. Kelly player and coach from a dynasty is the devil?

I specifically picked teams that were in just as bad shape, some who have been for a very long time.

Besides even if that is true and you would have to pay more are you telling me fielding a horrible team with multiple guys who don’t belong in the the league is better than paying what it costs you to field a better team?
There are many, many players who are clearly better than guys in our rosters who signed for small money and many on bad teams.

What position(s) do you think he wasn’t satisfied with what he did and kept trying to sign more guys? Do you think he signed the guys he did to then sign someone else and make them redundant.

I think Wolf felt he did a good job in FA and the draft and expected a competitive team. Then they hit the field and he was wrong and scrambled for waiver wire guys to fill the holes he didn’t realize he left in his roster.

Do you really think THIS is what he wanted?

 

[Ian]

A one year coordinator is going to be a draw for free agents and a pro. Kelly player and coach from a dynasty is the devil?

I specifically picked teams that were in just as bad shape, some who have been for a very long time.

Besides even if that is true and you would have to pay more are you telling me fielding a horrible team with multiple guys who don’t belong in the the league is better than paying what it costs you to field a better team?
There are many, many players who are clearly better than guys in our rosters who signed for small money and many on bad teams.

What position(s) do you think he wasn’t satisfied with what he did and kept trying to sign more guys? Do you think he signed the guys he did to then sign someone else and make them redundant.

I think Wolf felt he did a good job in FA and the draft and expected a competitive team. Then they hit the field and he was wrong and scrambled for waiver wire guys to fill the holes he didn’t realize he left in his roster.

Do you really think THIS is what he wanted?

Not at all. But I do think this was the best he could do in terms of what free agents wanted to come here, and they signed who they were able to sign. And no, I don't think he only targeted the handful of lower-tiered guys they signed. I think they pursued quite a few and were probably shot down immediately for reasons I've already mentioned.

My one gripe is signing Okorafor knowing his backstory in Pittsburgh. If I have one complaint about anybody or Wolf making a bad decision, I would say he's the one that stands out.

Aside from that, I think most of us have come to accept that it was going to take more than one offseason to fix this. I feel like next season is going to be both his and Mayo's make-or-break year, as Maye will be in his sophomore year, and they should hopefully be able to add an impact player to go with these young WRs while using their draft picks to bolster their tackles, etc.

But ownership won't want to weather another year where the season is over by November 3rd while enduring another six-game losing streak. They can't be this mediocre for two-straight years and have a roster missing depth at key positions. I don't fault him for not being able to fix that in one offseason. But I think if they don't get that part fixed by next September, it may be a different story.

 

[upstater1]

I was going to bypass this thread just out of self-preservation BUT...

...now I'm reading that the coaches want to move Mike Onwenu to LG...

...where he was a disaster the previous time he played there, in a year in which he dominated people at RG and was considered one of the best players at his position in football.

Either they have no memory, no film footage, no brains, but whatever is going on, they better make sure this works.

If it doesn't, no one can say the experiment with Onwenu at LG was well thought out.

If he fails at LG, it's coaching malpractice.

 

[TheRainMaker]

...where he was a disaster the previous time he played there, in a year in which he dominated people at RG and was considered one of the best players at his position in football.

NFL execs don't consider him in the conversation among the best.

"ESPN recently conducted a vote with NFL coaches, executives, and scouts to analyze the league's talent pool on the interior offensive lineman, where Onwenu managed to get some consideration himself. He didn't manage to place within the top ten of the rankings but landed a spot within the seven honorable mentions."

NFL Execs & Coaches Stack Up Patriots' Mike Onwenu Against Top IOLs

He's way too overhyped here.

 

[Ring 6]

Especially in this era of the NFL. I did warn people that he wasn't going to do well in this offense because of scheme, OL and lack of passing game. Another reason why the contract his got was pre-mature.

It’s really not his fault. He’s played well he just rarely has a hole.

This brings up something about Van Pelt that annoys the hell out of me.
He uses outside runs and receiver or the screens and behind the line passes to RBs more on first down than anyone I have ever seen. (Last game was criminal how much he did it)
Those plays are high propensity of negative or big gain plays. Running them on first down puts you in a big risk of 2nd and 11,12,13 which is a drive killer, AND they are high frequency penalty plays.
He just doesn’t seem to se beyond 2+2=4 while other play callers are doing calculus

 

[Ring 6]

Not at all. But I do think this was the best he could do in terms of what free agents wanted to come here, and they signed who they were able to sign. And no, I don't think he only targeted the handful of lower-tiered guys they signed. I think they pursued quite a few and were probably shot down immediately for reasons I've already mentioned.

My one gripe is signing Okorafor knowing his backstory in Pittsburgh. If I have one complaint about anybody or Wolf making a bad decision, I would say he's the one that stands out.

Aside from that, I think most of us have come to accept that it was going to take more than one offseason to fix this. I feel like next season is going to be both his and Mayo's make-or-break year, as Maye will be in his sophomore year, and they should hopefully be able to add an impact player to go with these young WRs while using their draft picks to bolster their tackles, etc.

But ownership won't want to weather another year where the season is over by November 3rd while enduring another six-game losing streak. They can't be this mediocre for two-straight years and have a roster missing depth at key positions. I don't fault him for not being able to fix that in one offseason. But I think if they don't get that part fixed by next September, it may be a different story.

So if we remove your assumption that no one wanted to come here, do you agree he did a terrible even negligent job?

What free agent did you think was a good signing? Honestly every one looks like a bad decision to me.

I think it’s wrong to accept it couldn’t be fixed. Just look at Washington. Virtually every season there is a team that won 4-5 games and turns it around.

I think the biggest issue I see that does not bode well for next year is that this group doesn’t seem to evaluate players well. They left 40 mill on the table while they knew they were relying on guys who they should have know didn’t belong in the league. I can understand a lack of depth when you don’t have resources. But they literally could have signed 20 guys all across the roster very cheaply who would be playing and be better than the guys we are putting out there. The evaluated poorly and now we have practice squad and waiver wire level guys starting or playing major snaps at OL, DL, LB and S and WRs that are worse than last year if that’s possible.And every pick they made on the draft other than May has really stunk it up. That doesn't bode well for the personnel decisions they will make next year.

 

[Triumph]

What makes you think Bills next team would be prepared and disciplined? His last few seasons here were ****ing brutal in that regard.

They had a bad defense?

Tell me more.

 

[Triumph]

It's frustrating because no matter what Mayo does he will have one mulligan of a year and Kraft wont move on from him.
Next year I WANT us to be above .500 and try for the playoffs but if we keep Mayo and miss the playoffs it will be a wasted season imo. Especially if candidates like Ben Johnson/Vrabel/Flores find other jobs.

Kraft and everyone on this planet knew that Mayo had no HC experience when he was hired.

Why are people shocked that Mayo is making mistakes?

 

[Wozzy]

The new collaboration apologists are working overtime. (Insert eye roll here)

 

[Ian]

So if we remove your assumption that no one wanted to come here, do you agree he did a terrible even negligent job?

If we go on your assumption that he only had interest in the FAs that they signed and didn't even inquire about anyone else, then yes. Kick him to the curb. But I feel like they absolutely inquired on a lot of other players.

What free agent did you think was a good signing? Honestly every one looks like a bad decision to me.

That's excessive. I like the Takitaki and Gibson signings, and Hooper has been productive. Brissett was a necessity, and he was OK, all things considered. Leverett was decent until he wasn't. Osborn should have been better, but he's been pushed off because they're devoting their efforts to developing their young players.

Again, by my count, I think they signed 9 guys, but you're dealing with the best of the bottom of the barrel. Sort of is what it is.

I think it’s wrong to accept it couldn’t be fixed. Just look at Washington. Virtually every season there is a team that won 4-5 games and turns it around.

I think the biggest issue I see that does not bode well for next year is that this group doesn’t seem to evaluate players well. They left 40 mill on the table while they knew they were relying on guys who they should have know didn’t belong in the league. I can understand a lack of depth when you don’t have resources. But they literally could have signed 20 guys all across the roster very cheaply who would be playing and be better than the guys we are putting out there. The evaluated poorly and now we have practice squad and waiver wire level guys starting or playing major snaps at OL, DL, LB and S and WRs that are worse than last year if that’s possible.

There's no good players in street clothes right now. So they don't have any other options.

And every pick they made on the draft other than May has really stunk it up. That doesn't bode well for the personnel decisions they will make next year.

Much of last year's class did little last year. Gonzalez lasted a handful of games, White was inconsistent, Andrews only played special teams, Mapu did little (and several people here hated that pick), Mafi was rough and Boutte got benched for most of the season and didn't really contribute. Speed didn't do anything, and Bolden was hurt in preseason. The only guys who really contributed at any level were Baringer and Sow, and Ryland fell off as the season went on.

Fast forward a year, and that picture suddenly looks quite different. Needless to say, I'll wait it out and not write off this class yet.

 

[TheRainMaker]

It’s really not his fault. He’s played well he just rarely has a hole.

And that is one of the major reasons I was opposed to handing him a big contract. He's also not a dynamic back and needs superb blocking to get going. Like many big lumbering backs, if they can't get past the first level, they are screwed. If they do and get into open space, that's when they do their damage. Derrick Henry is extremely quick for his size.

Antonio Gibson seems like a better fit for the zone blocking as he's had half the carries Rham has, but has 1 more run of 20+ yards or more. He's averaging 4.1 to Rham's 3.8. Gibson also averages 10.1 yards a reception to Rham's 4.3.

This brings up something about Van Pelt that annoys the hell out of me.
He uses outside runs and receiver or the screens and behind the line passes to RBs more on first down than anyone I have ever seen. (Last game was criminal how much he did it)

Yep, they are fitting square pegs in round holes.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Had a Top Offense though unfortunate injuries is what derailed them. That said I like Mike McDaniel.

Do you like McDaniel's permed curly hair? I am not a permed hair guy. Do you like the hair transplants too?

 

[Ring 6]

If we go on your assumption that he only had interest in the FAs that they signed and didn't even inquire about anyone else, then yes. Kick him to the curb. But I feel like they absolutely inquired on a lot of other players.

That's excessive. I like the Takitaki and Gibson signings, and Hooper has been productive. Brissett was a necessity, and he was OK, all things considered. Leverett was decent until he wasn't. Osborn should have been better, but he's been pushed off because they're devoting their efforts to developing their young players.

Again, by my count, I think they signed 9 guys, but you're dealing with the best of the bottom of the barrel. Sort of is what it is.

There's no good players in street clothes right now. So they don't have any other options.

Much of last year's class did little last year. Gonzalez lasted a handful of games, White was inconsistent, Andrews only played special teams, Mapu did little (and several people here hated that pick), Mafi was rough and Boutte got benched for most of the season and didn't really contribute. Speed didn't do anything, and Bolden was hurt in preseason. The only guys who really contributed at any level were Baringer and Sow, and Ryland fell off as the season went on.

Fast forward a year, and that picture suddenly looks quite different. Needless to say, I'll wait it out and not write off this class yet.

But there is zero evidence that he did. No visits, no talk, no rumors. So your “feeling” is all you have to contradict what we can see. Thats kind of my point.

Tatitaki has done nothing. Ellis is playing ahead of him. McMillan is playing ahead of him. Gibson has 236 yards and 13 receptions in half a season including 2 starts. Hooper has 1.8 catches for 15.2 yards per game. We have a different definition of productive. Leverette was decent? At what? You are one of the people making excuse for receivers saying how could you expect production with brisett at qb, now he is “ok”?
It’s like you are trying to argue he built a strong team.

Why are you talking about last years draft? I’m talking about this year, but aside from gonz and white abd a punter years draft stinks too and the guys playing are only out there because we didn’t bring in any good players. Add that to the list of bad evaluations by wolf.

 

[Ring 6]

And that is one of the major reasons I was opposed to handing him a big contract. He's also not a dynamic back and needs superb blocking to get going. Like many big lumbering backs, if they can't get past the first level, they are screwed. If they do and get into open space, that's when they do their damage. Derrick Henry is extremely quick for his size.

Antonio Gibson seems like a better fit for the zone blocking as he's had half the carries Rham has, but has 1 more run of 20+ yards or more. He's averaging 4.1 to Rham's 3.8. Gibson also averages 10.1 yards a reception to Rham's 4.3.

Yep, they are fitting square pegs in round holes.

Stevenson has broken a ton of tackles. And average rb with this blocking would be at about 2.5. Gibson had one long run in a small sample size taint in his avg. he’s 3.4 without that one.

 

[Ian]

But there is zero evidence that he did. No visits, no talk, no rumors. So your “feeling” is all you have to contradict what we can see. Thats kind of my point.

There is no general manager on the planet that goes into an offseason and only inquires on 9 players out of over 100. That would be gross negligence and grounds for immediate termination.

You berated me months ago about "Kraft was cheap" to now Wolf didn't even pick up the phone for more than 9 players. If you honestly believe that's what he did, I don't really know what else to say at this point. And if you truly believe the media are both told about and report on 100% of player inquiries, that's another area that we're going to have to disagree.

Tatitaki has done nothing. Ellis is playing ahead of him. McMillan is playing ahead of him. Gibson has 236 yards and 13 receptions in half a season including 2 starts. Hooper has 1.8 catches for 15.2 yards per game. We have a different definition of productive. Leverette was decent? At what? You are one of the people making excuse for receivers saying how could you expect production with brisett at qb, now he is “ok”?
It’s like you are trying to argue he built a strong team.

I just told you. Those were the best available of the bottom-of-the-barrel of guys willing to consider coming here. To get anything out of those guys is a plus.

Why are you talking about last years draft? I’m talking about this year, but aside from gonz and white abd a punter years draft stinks too and the guys playing are only out there because we didn’t bring in any good players. Add that to the list of bad evaluations by wolf.

To point out that it takes a year+ before you can really start to make any type of judgment when it comes to the draft. And last year's draft didn't stink. Gonzalez, White, Mapu and Bolden are all contributing on defense. Boutte has finally come around, Douglas is a solid wideout, Sow has been solid before he got hurt. Jake Andrews is projected to compete to replace David Andrews next season and played fairly well on special teams his rookie year, and Baringer has been terrific. The only guys who didn't work out (at least to this point) were Ryland, Speed, and Mafi.

I get you don't like Wolf, and that's fine. But it's going to take a year or two before any real evaluations can be made when it comes to how the personnel and scouting department is operating. Firing him now creates a new problem. Unless you've got a ton of confidence in Matt Groh, to which @captain stone will likely have something to say about that.

 

[Ring 6]

There is no general manager on the planet that goes into an offseason and only inquires on 9 players out of over 100. That would be gross negligence and grounds for immediate termination.

You berated me months ago about "Kraft was cheap" to now Wolf didn't even pick up the phone for more than 9 players. If you honestly believe that's what he did, I don't really know what else to say at this point. And if you truly believe the media are both told about and report on 100% of player inquiries, that's another area that we're going to have to disagree.

I just told you. Those were the best available of the bottom-of-the-barrel of guys willing to consider coming here. To get anything out of those guys is a plus.

To point out that it takes a year+ before you can really start to make any type of judgment when it comes to the draft. And last year's draft didn't stink. Gonzalez, White, Mapu and Bolden are all contributing on defense. Boutte has finally come around, Douglas is a solid wideout, Sow has been solid before he got hurt. Jake Andrews is projected to compete to replace David Andrews next season and played fairly well on special teams his rookie year, and Baringer has been terrific. The only guys who didn't work out (at least to this point) were Ryland, Speed, and Mafi.

I get you don't like Wolf, and that's fine. But it's going to take a year or two before any real evaluations can be made when it comes to how the personnel and scouting department is operating. Firing him now creates a new problem. Unless you've got a ton of confidence in Matt Groh, to which @captain stone will likely have something to say about that.

Again, you’re feeling that nothing backs up.
I never berated you.

Both can be true that Kraft is cheap and Wolf did a terrible job in free agency.


It’s not a matter of whether i like Wolf or not, it’s a matter of evaluating the job he has done.
We both agree the results are terrible. The difference is I expect him to do well or be replaced and you think a bad job is good because you have created so many excuses for him that he has absolutely no accountability.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Stevenson has broken a ton of tackles. And average rb with this blocking would be at about 2.5. Gibson had one long run in a small sample size taint in his avg. he’s 3.4 without that one.

Rham has broken only 7 tackles to Gibson's 5. Rham has twice as many carries.

Rham averages 1.7 yards after contact to Gibson's 1.6.

Rham has 2.2 yards after contact to Gibson's 2.5.

2024 NFL Advanced Rushing | Pro-Football-Reference.com

Check out the 2024 NFL Advanced Rushing Stats and more on Pro-football-reference.com

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