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Mac Jones Draft scouting report weaknesses ring true


But....this is a message board where we discuss these types of things, right? We don't all have to agree but just because one person thinks a players stinks and another has unbridled optimism that surpasses all rational thinking and reasonableness, it does not mean that both of these people want the team to win. It means they have two different opinions and they are discussing it on a message board which seems....appropriate?
It does. Didn't say it didn't. The post was just to try to explain why the "mac crew" continues supporting him.
 
How is acknowledging the piss poor performance of Mac Jones tribal affiliation?

It's not. The ongoing ridiculous Zappe vs. Mac debate is.
 
And that's the issue. You don't want to hear that maybe it's not all Mac, and that's cool. It's fine to like Zappe and no one says you have to love what's going on. That's the whole point of a forum, people are certainly entitled to feel however they want.

I'm just saying that the reason a majority of people are still supporting Mac is because right now, he's the quarterback. But if Belichick decides a change is needed, then obviously we'll be on board with that.
As someone who has been banned for speaking about Mac I find it quite rich that you would say that I don't want to hear something on the matter.
 
It does. Didn't say it didn't. The post was just to try to explain why the "mac crew" continues supporting him.
Right, but wouldn't you agree that a much better argument would be "he has a rocket laser arm" or "his vision is there and he just needs time to develop the skills necessary to be a real NFL QB"? Supporting his candidacy for QB of the NEP simply because he is the QB of the NEP doesn't really lend itself for much discussion.
 
Essentially, you are both trying to shut down discussion on Mac in the guise of not being at team player which is pretty disingenuous.
Again, not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. If you think I'm delusional enough to think people will suddenly stop bashing Mac due to anything I write, I don't know what else to tell you.

I simply tried to express my reasoning - and it's an umbrella a lot of us who do support him fall under - as to why I'm still rooting for him to succeed.
 
Right, but wouldn't you agree that a much better argument would be "he has a rocket laser arm" or "his vision is there and he just needs time to develop the skills necessary to be a real NFL QB"? Supporting his candidacy for QB of the NEP simply because he is the QB of the NEP doesn't really lend itself for much discussion.
People have already expressed the other reasons behind supporting him around what you mentioned, which those who don't like him don't want to hear. But the simpler one is what I posted. Right now, he's the guy and I'll root for him until he's not. And then I'll root for the next guy.
 
You watched weak teams get beat up.
Under that same argument, which drives me bonkers, we were a weak team who made a living feasting off weak teams for 20-years.

And not because you said it - but because the rest of the NFL world brings that up constantly about the team's history. It's a bad and unfair argument. We play whoever is on the schedule, whether we stink or not.
 
Essentially, you are both trying to shut down discussion on Mac in the guise of not being at team player which is pretty disingenuous.

That certainly is not where I am coming from, personally. My only gripe on this matter is with people not considering a wider view of factors involving quarterback play -- coaching, OL, scheme and play design (or lack thereof) -- vs. simply trying to assess QB performance in a vacuum. The latter is what much of the off-base Mac criticism draws from.
 
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You watched weak teams get beat up.
Last year, as an example, Mac throws a pick-six against Dallas and McDaniels comes right back with that deep shot to Bourne, which obviously went for a touchdown. This year, any play that goes sideways, Patricia goes conservative. You have to admit, the contrast is significant.

I mean, no flea-flickers, no wide receiver throws (we had there of them at this time last year), no back shoulder throws, etc. Nothing. For what's essentially about to be 16 weeks.
 
The Mac crew cares more about Mac as the NE starter than the Patriots winning. They are fearful of Zappe because he could prove them all wrong. So, all you see is Remember Chicago. Mac can have 10 Baley Zappe Chicago games but it's all good because he is the GUY.

They blame Zappe for Chicago and they blame Patricia, OL, WRs when Mac does not win. Mac does not have Justin Jefferson. Another favorite excuse is that Mac is forced to run a harder offense to execute than Zappe. Zappe only wins because he has it easier than Jones.

It's sad that the Mac crew does not care about exhausting every possible option to win this season. The Pat's have a real good team too.
I dont think it's that i think its just giving context to the performances whether good or bad. Tbh i prefer Zappe overall but it's not by much and i don't think he has done a huge amount more than Mac. The whole Mac Vs zappe thing with people being "the Mac crew" or "Zappe fever" is just peurile playground nonsense. Both players are probably not the long term answer to be honest.
 
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Because Mac has been dealt such a c---p hand when it comes to coaching this year, I think we can come to no final conclusion re Mac, but there is no question that his play has been downright awful this year, nor fwiw that Zappe has outplayed him.
 
I dont think it's that i think its just giving context to the performances whether good or bad. Tbh i prefer Zappe overall but it's not by much and i don't think he has done a huge amount more than Mac. The whole Mac Vs zappe thing with people being "the Mac crew" or "Zappe fever" is just peurile playground nonsense. Both players are probably not the long term answer to be honest.
Zappe could very well be, it'll play itself out either way. Obviously, the hope is that somebody settles in under center, and we can talk about something else. But as I've said, and I wrote this yesterday - if Zappe does what Mac did this past offseason and gets stronger and works out his own kinks, Mac hasn't done enough yet to pull away and I don't think he'll get through next season like this. Especially not with a 41% completion performance like he had Sunday. We're patient, but if things are significantly in his favor next year and there's no improvement, I do think things could potentially look pretty different at this time next year.
 
With regards to the the poise thing, let's not go down that road. Mac was fine last year, to the point of being praised for it. This year, he's been left with a **** sandwich, then thrown under the bus by the coaching staff, so let's not start with the "OMG, Mac poise bad!" nonsense.

Peyton threw his teammates under the bus, both during after games. Rodgers throws his teammates under the bus and is visibly dismissive of both teammates and coaching staff both during games and afterwards. Brady's gotten into it with multiple coaches on the sidelines, broken enough tablets that he's been warned by the NFL, and called out teammates for all to hear.

Does Mac need to rein it in a bit moving forward? Probably, because it's seems as if it's now gotten into his head at this point. But this stuff wasn't any significant issue last year, when the coaching didn't suck, so let's shine the spotlight where it belongs, which is on BB and the staff.


And the grit thing is just stupid. The guy was getting Rodney King'd for a big chunk of the season, played through it as best he could, and is now obviously suffering the effects of doing that. In fact, rather than insulting his poise and grit, people should instead just be hoping that this poor kid hasn't already been shellshocked to the point of becoming another David Carr.
 
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Just like I'm not going to bail on Zappe if he goes through a stretch where he struggles. If you give up on guys, especially rookies or second-year players, you end up losing more than you win. I don't know what the statistics are there, but based on some of the guys we've seen around the league, a little patience is needed.

Funny, since we have a really nice example in Uche who was nowhere in his first 2 years just to have a stellar strech in the last 7-8 games looking like a freaking All-Pro out there, which is just insane compared to where he came from since drafted, but here again was labeled a draft fail from BB as people do not want to wait, they want the rookies to click immediately, no errors, just execute on an All-Pro level of an 10 year vet

Mac has his flows, Mac has many improvement oppertunities, but hell the worst part of it is that those supposed to bring him along and teach him up are the worst you can imagine and thats not only for Mac but the complete offense including Zeppe as well, thats where you have to blame the ones responsible for the set up and decisions made in off season and there it is where it has to be fixed first in order to fix the QB and the offense in general
 
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Oh I've looking forward to this.

If there is someone who nailed Mac's eval better than me. Please let me know so I know. Finally found a few post. Honestly it's not easy being this good.

Some thoughts from pre-draft and draft night ...

Might as well put this here. Thoughts on my QB (TO voice) ...

Like many of Bill's picks he wouldn't have been my choice but like you I'm happy we have a QB with some promise/hope. I like Mac a lot tbh just don't like the value here. I've said he's a Kirk Cousins, Jimmy G type/tier QB for months now (which isn't a bad thing, some posters didn't like that but I'm seeing those comps today). Good QB's that can handle/process info, adjust and deliver accurate passes. Guys that look right, things look right-like they should be. Guys that aren't going to hurt you but at the same time they aren't making players better, they're efficient and keep things moving. So again the value wasn't there for me, obviously Bill/Josh & co felt different.

Ultimately landing spot matters and if it's 30% for everyone else it's 40-50% for QB's. Jones landed in a Lamborghini though. Him & Mills were probably the best MOF passers in last year and we're set there as we've been discussing since we made the signings. The biggest advantage he had in college was his OL, we're set there if we stay healthy. OL is more important than his targets. Defense is weird and doesn't really translate so we could be a lot better there as well. Obviously our coaching is top notch. Mac needs all that and some to make it work but we have that. Seemingly we're set up to compete day one. Or at least we should be, Cam or Mac. I'm not putting crazy expectations on Mac but he's the 15th overall pick on a team that on paper is pretty good. He shouldn't be sitting game 1 imo. If he can't beat out Cam we're in trouble. Cam will come in hot. This is his last round in the fight but if Mac can't KO shaky-legs Cam why would you take him at 15? I think Cam is going to be better but this has to be Mac's team. I said a few days ago whoever the guy is has to win the job clean bc Bill isn't handing the job to anyone and isn't making a move to make a move. If Cam comes out on fire, looks the part he has a decent chance. We heard it last night 2 minutes after we picked Jones, "Cam is our starter."

I genuinely believe Bill & Josh signed off on this considering Josh is going to be hip to hip with him. Maybe Kraft too. Doesn't feel like a Bill pick, who knows. Like we waited, he fell. This wasn't an urgent pick, plenty of opportunities to jump up for Fields or Mac and they did neither. I feel like Bill gave clearance and basically Josh picked the guy he would be most comfortable working with towards success. Bill made the pick but I honestly believe Josh is the one picked the guy after the team spent what they did in FA to get this thing back on track.

As for Mac the player. His arm gets called into question a lot but truthfully it's his biggest asset to date. Obviously not his velocity or strength but he has very good placement, touch - accuracy. He can layer it in there, in between defenders. It's not great (Burrow is great, just so we're in reality) but really good is more than enough and strength can easily improve.

Most credit his mechanics, which aren't bad but most aren't Bacon. Let's be honest the draft is a summer hot spot outsiders come to thinking they own the place. Bacon is a dirty townie that calls that ****hole home. Mac's mechanics aren't bad but aren't in their final form or utilized properly. Footwork isn't the problem here but it breaks down when he's moved off his spot and has to reset. Feet will occasionally touch/click when dropping back. Forget about "running", some are stuck on this, this is pocket issue. He base and feet are balanced, decent weight distribution but could be a little better. Footwork is a + overall

Tough to look for bc he was kept clean so often (seriously that OL was crazy, everyone will be drafted and play, Neal might be a lottery pick next year), some plays don't stand out and narratives get set but his throwing motion could be tweaked a bit some as well. Launch/Release point, follow through could be looked at imo. That would go a long way. Both can be fixed to an extent although I'm not an expert. Accuracy and decision making will suffer when moved off his spot.

I love his anticipation. He had his hand held but he knew what was going on. Everyone talks about his comp % which doesn't matter to me tbh. You have to understand what each guy is doing or trying to do to really appreciate those stats. 60% of the time he passed behind the los, screens or it was an RPO. Beyond that, between design, OL, WR's he had a clean pocket, ton of time and a lot or stuff was predetermined. Was late coming off first read, opened up late in general at times. Like just bc a QB looks a certain side or w/e doesn't mean that's a "read." So again it helps to know what each team/QB was trying to do. Still Jones passes with really good anticipation. He doesn't panic or advertise throws, he knows exactly what's up and hits his target with great timing. Ball is moving before his target is looking for the ball. He really displays knowledge for the system, you can tell he was studying while waiting. It sticks out in this area. His behavior, movements and actions on the field speak to someone in control. He doesn't have the greatest poise when things are breaking down though, feet get a little happy but he's in command, in control of the situation, down & distance and what's in front of him. Knows where/who his hot reads are but the closer pressure comes in the harder it is for him to locate. Has a real problem with pressure the closer it gets. At times he'll occasionally see pressure when its not there.

Played big in big games. College was a mess last year and SEC was no different. That said he played great in the biggest games which matter a lot more than what conference you're in.

Release is good not great (again like the Burrow comp, look to Jimmy coming out. Much quicker release and quicker feet tbh) Good enough though

His upside or peak isn't a secret. He could absolutely improve on a few things as I mentioned above but it's his mental game that will take him to the next level imo. Don't ignore the obvious. He's not going to get much for accurate. Strength and velocity could improve but he'll probably never have a top tier arm in that sense. You never stop learning though. The nuances and little things that most will try to power through. Studying individual tendencies and tells. Which DC likes this call against this alignment or formation. He could be a little quicker overall. From getting the ball out, release, handing it off, the way he handles himself and others. Certainly not bad but again if we're talking about maximizing here he needs to be on fire doing those things, nothing is slow or robotic.

I'm happy bc I'm a Pats fan first and I root for everyone. Not this player or coach. Whether I love the player doesn't matter, he's a Pat. We absolutely need a QB and even though I might not have picked him I can recognize his talent and abilities. I think he's starting day one although I absolutely believe Cam will be ready.

...
Not perfect. I'm a ****ty writer but cue Denny Green. Mac is exactly who I thought he was.
 
Oh I've looking forward to this.

If there is someone who nailed Mac's eval better than me. Please let me know so I know. Finally found a few post. Honestly it's not easy being this good.

Some thoughts from pre-draft and draft night ...

Might as well put this here. Thoughts on my QB (TO voice) ...

Like many of Bill's picks he wouldn't have been my choice but like you I'm happy we have a QB with some promise/hope. I like Mac a lot tbh just don't like the value here. I've said he's a Kirk Cousins, Jimmy G type/tier QB for months now (which isn't a bad thing, some posters didn't like that but I'm seeing those comps today). Good QB's that can handle/process info, adjust and deliver accurate passes. Guys that look right, things look right-like they should be. Guys that aren't going to hurt you but at the same time they aren't making players better, they're efficient and keep things moving. So again the value wasn't there for me, obviously Bill/Josh & co felt different.

Ultimately landing spot matters and if it's 30% for everyone else it's 40-50% for QB's. Jones landed in a Lamborghini though. Him & Mills were probably the best MOF passers in last year and we're set there as we've been discussing since we made the signings. The biggest advantage he had in college was his OL, we're set there if we stay healthy. OL is more important than his targets. Defense is weird and doesn't really translate so we could be a lot better there as well. Obviously our coaching is top notch. Mac needs all that and some to make it work but we have that. Seemingly we're set up to compete day one. Or at least we should be, Cam or Mac. I'm not putting crazy expectations on Mac but he's the 15th overall pick on a team that on paper is pretty good. He shouldn't be sitting game 1 imo. If he can't beat out Cam we're in trouble. Cam will come in hot. This is his last round in the fight but if Mac can't KO shaky-legs Cam why would you take him at 15? I think Cam is going to be better but this has to be Mac's team. I said a few days ago whoever the guy is has to win the job clean bc Bill isn't handing the job to anyone and isn't making a move to make a move. If Cam comes out on fire, looks the part he has a decent chance. We heard it last night 2 minutes after we picked Jones, "Cam is our starter."

I genuinely believe Bill & Josh signed off on this considering Josh is going to be hip to hip with him. Maybe Kraft too. Doesn't feel like a Bill pick, who knows. Like we waited, he fell. This wasn't an urgent pick, plenty of opportunities to jump up for Fields or Mac and they did neither. I feel like Bill gave clearance and basically Josh picked the guy he would be most comfortable working with towards success. Bill made the pick but I honestly believe Josh is the one picked the guy after the team spent what they did in FA to get this thing back on track.

As for Mac the player. His arm gets called into question a lot but truthfully it's his biggest asset to date. Obviously not his velocity or strength but he has very good placement, touch - accuracy. He can layer it in there, in between defenders. It's not great (Burrow is great, just so we're in reality) but really good is more than enough and strength can easily improve.

Most credit his mechanics, which aren't bad but most aren't Bacon. Let's be honest the draft is a summer hot spot outsiders come to thinking they own the place. Bacon is a dirty townie that calls that ****hole home. Mac's mechanics aren't bad but aren't in their final form or utilized properly. Footwork isn't the problem here but it breaks down when he's moved off his spot and has to reset. Feet will occasionally touch/click when dropping back. Forget about "running", some are stuck on this, this is pocket issue. He base and feet are balanced, decent weight distribution but could be a little better. Footwork is a + overall

Tough to look for bc he was kept clean so often (seriously that OL was crazy, everyone will be drafted and play, Neal might be a lottery pick next year), some plays don't stand out and narratives get set but his throwing motion could be tweaked a bit some as well. Launch/Release point, follow through could be looked at imo. That would go a long way. Both can be fixed to an extent although I'm not an expert. Accuracy and decision making will suffer when moved off his spot.

I love his anticipation. He had his hand held but he knew what was going on. Everyone talks about his comp % which doesn't matter to me tbh. You have to understand what each guy is doing or trying to do to really appreciate those stats. 60% of the time he passed behind the los, screens or it was an RPO. Beyond that, between design, OL, WR's he had a clean pocket, ton of time and a lot or stuff was predetermined. Was late coming off first read, opened up late in general at times. Like just bc a QB looks a certain side or w/e doesn't mean that's a "read." So again it helps to know what each team/QB was trying to do. Still Jones passes with really good anticipation. He doesn't panic or advertise throws, he knows exactly what's up and hits his target with great timing. Ball is moving before his target is looking for the ball. He really displays knowledge for the system, you can tell he was studying while waiting. It sticks out in this area. His behavior, movements and actions on the field speak to someone in control. He doesn't have the greatest poise when things are breaking down though, feet get a little happy but he's in command, in control of the situation, down & distance and what's in front of him. Knows where/who his hot reads are but the closer pressure comes in the harder it is for him to locate. Has a real problem with pressure the closer it gets. At times he'll occasionally see pressure when its not there.

Played big in big games. College was a mess last year and SEC was no different. That said he played great in the biggest games which matter a lot more than what conference you're in.

Release is good not great (again like the Burrow comp, look to Jimmy coming out. Much quicker release and quicker feet tbh) Good enough though

His upside or peak isn't a secret. He could absolutely improve on a few things as I mentioned above but it's his mental game that will take him to the next level imo. Don't ignore the obvious. He's not going to get much for accurate. Strength and velocity could improve but he'll probably never have a top tier arm in that sense. You never stop learning though. The nuances and little things that most will try to power through. Studying individual tendencies and tells. Which DC likes this call against this alignment or formation. He could be a little quicker overall. From getting the ball out, release, handing it off, the way he handles himself and others. Certainly not bad but again if we're talking about maximizing here he needs to be on fire doing those things, nothing is slow or robotic.

I'm happy bc I'm a Pats fan first and I root for everyone. Not this player or coach. Whether I love the player doesn't matter, he's a Pat. We absolutely need a QB and even though I might not have picked him I can recognize his talent and abilities. I think he's starting day one although I absolutely believe Cam will be ready.

...
Not perfect. I'm a ****ty writer but cue Denny Green. Mac is exactly who I thought he was.

That's a whole lot of writing just to say "Please don't blame the coaching staff for sucking, and please ignore last season when the coaching didn't suck".
 
Too much snitty, not enough gritty?

I think we need to look at the Tua situation as a relevant comp. Tua got better coaches and better players around him: he's doing great. I have NO idea whether Mac would be similarly transformed, but it is only fair and, given the investment in draft capital, due diligence to give him a similar opportunity. He sure as heck didn't get that this year.

I would guess, frankly, that Mac is probably not the high-end guy we hoped he might be, but why guess? Make the right changes - coaching, big fat O linement, quicksilver receivers - and find out. If he flops, we've feathered the nest for the next guy.
 
Mac should be better but two years in and a coaching staff that’s broken at best have destroyed his development.

It’s tough to guess if MAC would have entirely turned into a solid NFL QB but two years into his pro career and he’s taken steps back
 
It's funny that nobody was mentioning his weaknesses last season when he made the pro bowl and led this injury depleted team to the playoffs.

Next year, when there is a new OC, we'll see his improvement. Mac is the least of our concerns on offense.
That's a bold statement. The quarterback is the most important position in professional sports. If Mac isn't a true franchise quarterback then it's a major problem because the team isn't good enough otherwise to make up for it.

And how confident are you that Belichick will completely scrap his plans for the offensive hierarchy after merely one season?

The pro bowl mention is a little disingenuous too imo.
 


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