Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?

[Ring 6]

Are the sex workers in these establishments criminals or victims?

Some of both I suppose.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

It’s either sheer luck... or you read one of the dozens of articles over the last month or so that gave Kraft’s best strategy for winning his court case.

It really doesn’t take a genius to predict the #1 defense strategy of a guilty client is to try to get the evidence ruled inadmissible.

Oh here we go...it’s sheer luck. You were so wrong and nothing to stand on! But I still argued and called you wrong, etc....

Lol. I can see no simple acknowledgement that this is where the case is going, which is exactly what I’ve been saying while people like yourself throw up their arms and get mad.

But you are right...It sure doesn’t take a genius to figure where this is and always heading.

There are very clear, simple, obvious facts here that strongly suggest the PD is about to get hammered. Most of all: why does this NEVER happen? Because warrants aren’t granted to videotape sex acts which then go public. It’s that’s simple. This is going to be one heck of a pony show by the PD to rationalize the continued use these cameras for months to bust people for crimes that were clearly not the main purpose of the warrant.

 

[Joker]

No one was arrested for "human trafficking" at Orchids of Asia. None of the johns nor any of the employees. It's just a dog whistle the police used to gain publicity.

 

[Ring 6]

Oh here we go...it’s sheer luck. You were so wrong and nothing to stand on! But I still argued and called you wrong, etc....

Lol. I can see no simple acknowledgement that this is where the case is going, which is exactly what I’ve been saying while people like yourself throw up their arms and get mad.

But you are right...It sure doesn’t take a genius to figure where this is and always heading.

There are very clear, simple, obvious facts here that strongly suggest the PD is about to get hammered. Most of all: why does this NEVER happen? Because warrants aren’t granted to videotape sex acts which then go public. It’s that’s simple. This is going to be one heck of a pony show by the PD to rationalize the continued use these cameras for months to bust people for crimes that were clearly not the main purpose of the warrant.

You are arguing that the case is getting thrown out.
The fact that an attorney files an objection to the evidence, which is a routine procedure, no lawyer would ever not challenge a dating video showing his client getting caught red handed, is not proof that the motion will win and the case get thrown out.

If your argument was that krafts attorneys would attempt to get each piece of e idence excluded, no one would have disagreed with you.
That’s not what you argued. You argued he will win and embarrass them because you know the warrant was illegal and everyone involved is a scumbag moron.

Nothing has happened to move you any closer to being correct.

 

[Ring 6]

No one was arrested for "human trafficking" at Orchids of Asia. None of the johns nor any of the employees. It's just a dog whistle the police used to gain publicity.

The investigation was for trafficking. The warrant was for trafficking. The evidence presented suggested trafficking.
Whether or not a trafficking arrest has been made yet, at that location doesn’t change the fact that they were investigating trafficking.

It is impossible to discuss the validity of the warrant and evidence without recognizing the warrant was for trafficking.

Not sure why you have such a problem with that but it is what it is.

 

[XLIX]

Oh here we go...it’s sheer luck. You were so wrong and nothing to stand on! But I still argued and called you wrong, etc....

Lol. I can see no simple acknowledgement that this is where the case is going, which is exactly what I’ve been saying while people like yourself throw up their arms and get mad.

But you are right...It sure doesn’t take a genius to figure where this is and always heading.

There are very clear, simple, obvious facts here that strongly suggest the PD is about to get hammered. Most of all: why does this NEVER happen? Because warrants aren’t granted to videotape sex acts which then go public. It’s that’s simple. This is going to be one heck of a pony show by the PD to rationalize the continued use these cameras for months to bust people for crimes that were clearly not the main purpose of the warrant.

I don’t think you’ve read a single one of my posts. You’re busy frothing at the mouth and all I am doing is calmly explaining the law and correcting the gross ignorance some in here are perpetuating.

 

[Joker]

The investigation was for trafficking. The warrant was for trafficking. The evidence presented suggested trafficking.
Whether or not a trafficking arrest has been made yet, at that location doesn’t change the fact that they were investigating trafficking.

It is impossible to discuss the validity of the warrant and evidence without recognizing the warrant was for trafficking.

Not sure why you have such a problem with that but it is what it is.

The warrants for Orchids of Asia were for "trafficking"? Produce them. The warrants I've seen made ZERO mention of human trafficking in their wording.You're falling back into the "human trafficking!" repeating beacon, like someone with autism

 

[Joker]

ng.

In a discussion about the investigation, trafficking was the purpose.
If someone wants to discuss the validity of the warrant, the warrant was for trafficking and kraft committed a separate crime, caught by those investigators.
That doesn’t make the investigation illegal.
It’s not that complicated man.




Kraft was caught committing a crime during a trafficking investigation. That’s indisputable. Relax. No one is saying kraft was trafficking. Kraft paid a hooker in a brothel that was being investigated for trafficking.[/SIZE]

You're a liar. Period.


Kibbey contends that none of the customers had any knowledge of human trafficking and that no evidence has yet come to light in the case demonstrating "anything other than consensual sex acts between two adults." He says he believes police used a false human-trafficking pretext to wrongfully obtain the warrant, which has yet to be unsealed, so they could arrest customers.

"If the basis for the warrant was human trafficking... the warrant is suspect and will ultimately be struck down upon further review by the courts," Kibbey says.

Robert Kraft Might Beat Criminal Charges Due to Police Overreach and Privacy Issues

No one should ever believe another thing you post. It's obvious you will outright lie to continue your "I'm never wrong!" pathology.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I don’t think you’ve read a single one of my posts. You’re busy frothing at the mouth and all I am doing is calmly explaining the law and correcting the gross ignorance some in here are perpetuating.

I try to avoid them whenever possible.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

You're a liar. Period.


Kibbey contends that none of the customers had any knowledge of human trafficking and that no evidence has yet come to light in the case demonstrating "anything other than consensual sex acts between two adults." He says he believes police used a false human-trafficking pretext to wrongfully obtain the warrant, which has yet to be unsealed, so they could arrest customers.

"If the basis for the warrant was human trafficking... the warrant is suspect and will ultimately be struck down upon further review by the courts," Kibbey says.

Robert Kraft Might Beat Criminal Charges Due to Police Overreach and Privacy Issues

No one should ever believe another thing you post. It's obvious you will outright lie to continue your "I'm never wrong!" pathology.

Someone out there still believes anything that AndyJohnson posts?

 

[njpatsfan]

You're a liar. Period.

No one should ever believe another thing you post. It's obvious you will outright lie to continue your "I'm never wrong!" pathology.

The warrant that Kibbey is talking about and the one you demand Andy produce is the warrant that allowed the sting to happen. Kibbeys guessing as the warrant is sealed. But we already know through multiple reports that there were girls suspected of being trafficked under fraudulent work visas, so it is likely the warrant will stand up regardless if it is for trafficking or plain prostitution. Kraft was caught and charged with solicitation as a separate crime based on the evidence gathered by the sting allowed by the warrant. So simple to understand.

 

[njpatsfan]

Oh and by the way, whether Kraft gets out of the misdemeanor or not, he’s going to get sanctioned by the NFL, and it will be done after the video is inevitably released.

Believe me, I am not happy about being right about this and a cannot understand why he did this, damaging both his own reputation and the franchise’s.

Terrible.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Whether or not the judge will allow the tape as evidence impossible to predict. What isn’t really in question here is that this was a damn long investigation, no arrests for human trafficking, a whopping amount of arrests for guys “caught red handed” in the crossfire for a crime that wasn’t the reason for the warrant (that isn’t even in question, the sheriff admitted this was part of a trafficking case), no audio (lol) to actually try to figure out what criminal masterminds might be saying, and a very clear, obvious case of these women not actually being trafficked, which should have been determinable very early on in this “investigation.” All of these things have been stipulated by the police records, not Kraft’s lawyers. It’s just connecting dots which led us to know his attorneys would be frothing at the mouth on this one. Why? Because in th surface this appears to be in every way a total abuse of law enforcement boundaries. Can we really argue otherwise? Possibly. The police would really have to have quite a tale of how they really believed this was leading to warrant’s intended target, and that sounds far fetched over this time period.

I think we are allowed to use our brains to derive this conclusion with acknowledgment that sure, we could be wrong about it. It was funny, though today, when Kraft’s own lawyer validate exactly what we said they would be picking apart. Will they win? I don’t know - but the amount of resistance to even that idea has been ridiculous...now everyone is saying of course that’s what the lawyers will say, but before that they were having temper tantrums that we were already talking about these obvious issues because “they aren’t facts” - though they were well-connected dots, better connected dots than most of the takes on this situation, and they logically lead to major issues about a potential release of a video.

Serious question: how would like it if you got a message at the parlor (nothing illegal), and a bunch of cops in Jupiter, PD saw you naked, or saw you changing, etc. because they’re secretly watching you without your permission, and have been videotaping and watching your family members, wife/girlfriends during their massages? Would you demand there better be a damn good reason for this? Would you think it’s okay if long ago they realized they really had nothing on the bigger case they were initially investigating? Because that’s exactly why the police behavior should be scrutinized here.

I think you can see why police surveillance is an important issue for society and has limits, and is very open for discussion, as well as relevant to the Kraft case, and why it isn’t unreasonable to suspect the PD f’d up badly here.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

And this quote is exactly why I’ve been saying the PD may be the ones who get taken down here. Kraft’s attorneys are basically going to demand an investigation of this PD’s conduct and possible abuse of the warrant. Sure, it could be posturing, but by the sounds of it they are not looking for just innocence; they are looking for heads on platters. I don’t think a statement of this magnitude is made unless they really think this is an abnormally bad and illegal investigation. Citizens have rights just like police. We know what Kraft did. If the PD did what it appears they did, then what they did was they are the ones who will be paying for this. This could very well become an internal police investigation. Everything about what’s been published looks like a horrible manipulation of the judicial system and it’s granted scope of a warrant.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I so don't care about the Kraft's lawyer's strategy, whether the police overreached, whether that's just a typical thing a rich john does when caught on tape, etc.

I sort of care if there's this Jeffrey Epsteinesque evil human trafficking chinese mafia thing going on. I'll keep an eye out for whether that's always there for consciousness raising purposes.

But the MAIN thing here is the irony if anything involving the improper placement of a camera gets him out of this.

That's all I am focused on right now.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I so don't care about the Kraft's lawyer's strategy, whether the police overreached, whether that's just a typical thing a rich john does when caught on tape, etc.

I sort of care if there's this Jeffrey Epsteinesque evil human trafficking chinese mafia thing going on. I'll keep an eye out for whether that's always there for consciousness raising purposes.

But the MAIN thing here is the irony if anything involving the improper placement of a camera gets him out of this.

That's all I am focused on right now.

Man, this has to be one of the jokes of the year!

 

[njpatsfan]

I’d like to be upgraded to a comprehensible idiot, or at least a semi-comprehensible idiot. Try to read this without being angry or making assumptions about what you think I’m trying to present as fact versus what I’m reasoning from a ....

Believe me, I am sure that the the police investigation (done with full support from the DA don’t forget) was less interested in stopping ‘trafficking’ than landing ‘big fish’. Look how many DAs abuse the position to springboard into politics (cough .... Kampala ‘kneepads’ Harris).

But land a big fish they did, and in the end that matters more than than the legal maneuvering behind the eventual outcome of a misdemeanor case. The process is the punishment.

Calling Andy a liar because he is simply reciting the plain facts that we know is not going to change anything.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Believe me, I am sure that the the police investigation (done with full support from the DA don’t forget) was less interested in stopping ‘trafficking’ than landing ‘big fish’.

I was right: you are definitely not an idiot.

The problem I see the Jupiter PD having is that, while this may be somewhat common, their intentions appear to virtually indefensible. There are so many knockout punch questions just waiting to be asked by a defense team. I’ve detailed them enough and don’t need feel the need to repeat them.

But what about my question: based on what you know, would you be cool with a bunch of cops watching a secretly recorded video of your significant other while s/he gets naked for a perfectly legal massage when they really have no probable cause to be surveilling anymore? Since there was actually no sex trafficking happening, no audio to even pretend to collect evidence of the trafficking, and a much faster way to investigate which would respect the privacy of citizens.

Or are you fine with potentially being secretly recorded and watched while you take a shower at your gym because police had a thin case a long time ago that someone else at the gym was selling steroids to other members, and even though they had no case, they continued recording for four months?

It isn’t just about breaking laws. It’s about privacy as a right. This is why many are fired up about this...it isn’t about Kraft. He’s been dead to many of us since May 2015.

 

[venecol]

I’m going to ask this because, maybe, I’m naive, but what kind of person would watch a video of 77 year old man with exposed genitals being pleasured. Have we really become this depraved of a society?

1. Yes, you are very naive,
2. You've obviously never been on Youporn,
3. Man has always been depraved. Read up on the Roman Empire, they didn't have internet so they would just have massive orgies lasting days.

Homosexuality, sodomy, gluttony, debauchery, incest, rape, suicide, murder, alcoholism, slavery, prostitution, gambling, racism, war, etc. have always been around. All of the nice things that make us humans and that going to Church every Sunday will not stop. You can pass all the laws you want, expose all the Johns on national TV hoping this all stops but it won't. Prostitution will remain illegal, women will continue to be abused without being able to ask for help, and life will go on.

 

[supafly]

Homosexuality, sodomy, gluttony, debauchery, incest, rape, suicide, murder, alcoholism, slavery, prostitution, gambling, racism, war, etc. have always been around. All of the nice things that make us humans and that going to Church every Sunday will not stop. You can pass all the laws you want, expose all the Johns on national TV hoping this all stops but it won't. Prostitution will remain illegal, women will continue to be abused without being able to ask for help, and life will go on.