It Looks Like No Long term Deal between Pats and Welker

[Brady2Moss]

Yet you were arguing about things that weren't in his role earlier





Again, you're talking about something that's outside of his role on the team (Game winning TD). You want to have this both ways. This isn't really the right message board to try to get away with that sort of thing.

Are you capable of following an argument I'm saying he has his role and it isn't the same thing as fitzgerald and calvin or anyone making 10+ at the WR position that's why I don't care if the Patriots didn't resign him at that price tag because he does not do the things you need to do to get that kind of money in this league. He should be paid as the best slot receiver in the game as he is, 8 million per not a cent more. I don't want him to be Calvin Johnson but get paid peanuts.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Dig yourself out...

If a slot receiver is getting less yards per catch, he is getting less first downs whereas a player who runs past the 10yd line for their respective routes will make the 1st down regardless. My blabbering makes total sense. You just don't understand it or refuse to acknowledge it.



...and you are being subborn.

If it's 3rd and 5, then it's of secondary importance whether he makes it 7 or 10 yards. What really matters is getting the first down. You evaluate his effectiveness at this not with YPC, but by looking at first downs. Not sure why this is causing confusion.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

I'm done arguing this point Welker always has the most catches, it's a function of his role in this system. He isn't going to do anything for you in crunch time, no game winning td no tough grabs apparently either (the drop). He's worth 3 years 24 mil not 15 mil avg.

He's had plenty of tough grabs. Folks like you disremember those in favor of the one he missed. They didn't offer him $24M for 3 years. And he wasn't asking for a $15M average.

 

[Brady2Moss]

He's had plenty of tough grabs. Folks like you disremember those in favor of the one he missed. They didn't offer him $24M for 3 years. And he wasn't asking for a $15M average.

I know he makes tough grabs but he did miss a big one. And ok I've said it 3 times now if Schefter didn't actually mean that Wes wants the top end average then what I'm saying is pointless and I'd be angry with the front office because he's certainly worth the highest paid slot receiver money.

 

[BradyFTW!]

In the past couple of years, we've seen the Pats give market-setting contracts to Brady, Gronk, Wilfork, and Mankins. Mayo's was also right up there. If there's really a narrative forming here that the Patriots don't pay their most valuable players, then let's kill it now. They do, and the proof is in the series of contracts that all prove it. In this case, they just don't think Wes is worth as much as Wes thinks Wes is worth. Oh well. I'm not sure that I agree with them, but that's a separate argument. The Patriots have always refused to pay players more than they think they're worth; it's not a slap in the face or a moral failing -- it's precisely one of the reasons why they're the Patriots and not the Jets.

 

[Deus Irae]

Are you capable of following an argument I'm saying he has his role and it isn't the same thing as fitzgerald and calvin or anyone making 10+ at the WR position that's why I don't care if the Patriots didn't resign him at that price tag because he does not do the things you need to do to get that kind of money in this league. He should be paid as the best slot receiver in the game as he is, 8 million per not a cent more. I don't want him to be Calvin Johnson but get paid peanuts.

I'm more than capable. You want to use his "non-role" stuff against him when it suits your argument but then you choose to be dismissive when he excels in his actual role. It'd be like saying "Yeah, Brady is a great passer, but he can't run worth a damn, so he's not worth top QB money".

You've made lousy argument after lousy argument, based largely on the non-fact of a "claim" by Schefter that wasn't actually a claim.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Are you capable of following an argument I'm saying he has his role and it isn't the same thing as fitzgerald and calvin or anyone making 10+ at the WR position that's why I don't care if the Patriots didn't resign him at that price tag because he does not do the things you need to do to get that kind of money in this league. He should be paid as the best slot receiver in the game as he is, 8 million per not a cent more. I don't want him to be Calvin Johnson but get paid peanuts.

Somehow he manages within his role to produce the same number of catches and yards as these guys, if not more. But he certainly isn't as explosive a player. That's why he was asking for something in the $10M or less range while they got something in the $15-20M range. That you can't grasp that seems to be the issue. And they weren't offering him $8M per, that offer came off the table before the tag went on. They were offering him something less than that guaranteed for no more than 2 years.

 

[Deus Irae]

In the past couple of years, we've seen the Pats give market-setting contracts to Brady, Gronk, Wilfork, and Mankins. Mayo's was also right up there. If there's really a narrative forming here that the Patriots don't pay their most valuable players, then let's kill it now. They do, and the proof is in the series of contracts that all prove it. In this case, they just don't think Wes is worth as much as Wes thinks Wes is worth. Oh well.

Sorry, but this dog doesn't hunt. They knew Brady's deal was going to get eclipsed by Manning, and they still ****ered about enough to piss off Brady. They waited a year on Wilfork when they could have gotten the deal done earlier and used the tag on Seymour. Mayo didn't set any market, and Gronk gave them a team friendly deal. As for Mankins, I just assume you're kidding with that one. What we've actually seen in the last couple of years is some really lousy work by that front office on their big ticket players.

 

[Brady2Moss]

I'm more than capable. You want to use his "non-role" stuff against him when it suits your argument but then you choose to be dismissive when he excels in his actual role. It'd be like saying "Yeah, Brady is a great passer, but he can't run worth a damn, so he's not worth top QB money".

You've made lousy argument after lousy argument, based largely on the non-fact of a "claim" by Schefter that wasn't actually a claim.

My point is his role isn't worth top receiver money period. No brady is the best passer in the NFL and a quarterback passes so he gets paid top QB money. Welker is a top SLOT receiver so he should get top slot receiver money. None of my claims are lousy, you guys are just impressed by numbers that don't mean much in the end.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

What part of my stated opinion - that both the Patriots and Welker's POVs in this negotiation are clearly rational, logical and understandable - suggests to you that I'm highly emotional on this issue?

Per your post #199......."legend"?

Branch was SB MVP per SB XXXIX...... a"legend"?

You think his post was "bad"?

You should chill from patsfans.com for lil bit and go watch the movie, "Twelve O'Clock High" with Gregory Peck. The movie deals as a central theme about identification and it's pitfalls.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

In the past couple of years, we've seen the Pats give market-setting contracts to Brady, Gronk, Wilfork, and Mankins. Mayo's was also right up there. If there's really a narrative forming here that the Patriots don't pay their most valuable players, then let's kill it now. They do, and the proof is in the series of contracts that all prove it. In this case, they just don't think Wes is worth as much as Wes thinks Wes is worth. Oh well. I'm not sure that I agree with them, but that's a separate argument. The Patriots have always refused to pay players more than they think they're worth; it's not a slap in the face or a moral failing -- it's precisely one of the reasons why they're the Patriots and not the Jets.

The rub will be if they were wrong. Bedard sums it up pretty good.

Although the sides did communicate on Monday, they never got close to an agreement. According to the Boston Globe's Greg Bedard, Rob Gronkowski's six-year, $54 million extension did not negatively affect Welker's contract talks, but Jerod Mayo's five-year, $48 million deal did. Bedard believes Welker's future in New England comes down to his 2012 performance. The Pats are unlikely to use the franchise tag again next season when they could have signed him for less money on Monday. If Welker has a disappointing season, however, he could be brought back without the Patriots engaging in a bidding war. "The Patriots almost have to let him go if he plays well," opines Bedard. Jul 16 - 3:55 PM

So like I said in an earlier thread, they have to hope he performs well enough to justify the tag and well enough for them to win but not well enough to be worth $11.5M in 2013 or he's gone. Because no matter how well he performs, they are not going to pay him more than they set their minds to for whatever reason prior to last season...even though he reset the bar at the position performance wise thereafter. Bizarre to say the least.

 

[Deus Irae]

My point is his role isn't worth top receiver money period. No brady is the best passer in the NFL and a quarterback passes so he gets paid top QB money. Welker is a top SLOT receiver so he should get top slot receiver money. None of my claims are lousy, you guys are just impressed by numbers that don't mean much in the end.

:bricks:

Your point is still lousy, since Welker wasn't just a slot receiver.

You can keep howling to the wind, but the reality is that the people you're arguing with are saying basically the same things:

1.) It's not Johnson/Fitzgerald money that's been reported, but 8-12 mill.

2.) Welker won't get paid based upon production due to his age and role, and that's fine

3.) Reports are that the Patriots offered less than 2 years/16 mill

In other words, you're arguing non-issues, and doing it based upon an assumption off one line in a report that didn't say what you initially claimed it said.

And there's no "slot WR" designation in the salary list for franchising players

 

[Joker]

the only "reports" I hear about this issue is the Pats and Welker were at odds over 6 million dollars over a three year deal.What no one talks about is what it is worth to Welker to finish out his career as a player for the Pats and go into retirement with THAT attached to his resume....like Bruschi,Troy Brown,Rodney etc. Didn't Willie say his one regret was NOT finishing his career up in N.E.? I think Welker's agent has screwed this up. Everybody knows(or should in today's world) you give a little ,they give a little, you get a deal done. Is anyone seriously making the assertion that 6 million dollars over three years killed Welker's chance for contract security?..an agent can't negotiate that figure spread over three years? The Pats meet you halfway and there's your 9.5 mil a year contract...of course they are going to offer 8.5....nah, I think this agent is an azz.

 

[Huckleberry1]

My point is his role isn't worth top receiver money period. No brady is the best passer in the NFL and a quarterback passes so he gets paid top QB money. Welker is a top SLOT receiver so he should get top slot receiver money. None of my claims are lousy, you guys are just impressed by numbers that don't mean much in the end.

Anyone who thinks that Edelman can replace Welker is a complete idiot, period.

 

[Deus Irae]

the only "reports" I hear about this issue is the Pats and Welker were at odds over 6 million dollars over a three year deal.What no one talks about is what it is worth to Welker to finish out his career as a player for the Pats and go into retirement with THAT attached to his resume....like Bruschi,Troy Brown,Rodney etc. Didn't Willie say his one regret was NOT finishing his career up in N.E.? I think Welker's agent has screwed this up. Everybody knows(or should in today's world) you give a little ,they give a little, you get a deal done. Is anyone seriously making the assertion that 6 million dollars over three years killed Welker's chance for contract security?..an agent can't negotiate that figure spread over three years? The Pats meet you halfway and there's your 9.5 mil a year contract...of course they are going to offer 8.5....nah, I think this agent is an azz.

2 Franchise tags = just under $21 million.

Patriots offer reportedly = less than $16 million for 2 years.

Any agent that had gone along with that deal would have been negligent and would probably not have ever gotten another client. For Welker, signing with the Patriots for any deal that didn't include something at least approaching $21 million guaranteed would have been moronic. He's gotten screwed by the team, but he'll now have a chance to either get loose from them or bank that 20+ million. Frankly, if I were him, I'd spend the season telling them to go pound sand.

Then again, I wouldn't have signed that tender.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

According to Bedard's sources the divide remained over the guaranteed money and a third year. They never managed to bridge that gap, meaning they could not even agree on having a third season. That's not an agent screw up. That's a total unwillingness on the part of the team to budge beyond their 2 year $16M offer of a year ago. Even for a guy who since then put up record setting numbers.


Patriots, Wes Welker fail to reach new deal - Extra Points - Boston.com

 

[MoLewisrocks]

2 Franchise tags = just under $21 million.

Patriots offer reportedly = less than $16 million for 2 years.

Any agent that had gone along with that deal would have been negligent and would probably not have ever gotten another client. For Welker, signing with the Patriots for any deal that didn't include something at least approaching $21 million guaranteed would have been moronic. He's gotten screwed by the team, but he'll now have a chance to either get loose from them or bank that 20+ million. Frankly, if I were him, I'd spend the season telling them to go pound sand.

Then again, I wouldn't have signed that tender.

Meanwhile they are probably counting on his not being nearly as vindictive as some of those in their fan base...

If they'd made him even some full of baloney offer (but those are hard to sell absent that remaining year of an old deal) that could have been spun as more than $16M, believe me we'd have heard about it. Frankly Welker was probably embarassed to go into much detail about their dealings beyond that early comment (they apparently didn't appreciate) about them offering less. Nor did they respond well when he briefly talked about holding out on...OTA's. He tried to do what he thought worked with these guys. The message to future candidates for a deal here is good luck trying to figure out what that is.

Dunn has 9 players he represents here...

 

[BradyManny]

Per your post #199......."legend"?

Branch was SB MVP per SB XXXIX...... a"legend"?

You think his post was "bad"?

You should chill from patsfans.com for lil bit and go watch the movie, "Twelve O'Clock High" with Gregory Peck. The movie deals as a central theme about identification and it's pitfalls.

If Welker won SB MVP when we won 19-0, then yes, he probably would've been a Boston sports icon.

I'm sorry, I forget to apologize that I actually root for this team and its players - I know that really bothers you and thwarts your agenda of seeing your contrarian views proven right at the expense of the team's success.

 

[Deus Irae]

Meanwhile they are probably counting on his not being nearly as vindictive as some of those in their fan base...

If they'd made him even some full of baloney offer (but those are hard to sell absent that remaining year of an old deal) that could have been spun as more than $16M, believe me we'd have heard about it. Frankly Welker was probably embarassed to go into much detail about their dealings beyond that early comment (they apparently didn't appreciate) about them offering less. Nor did they respond well when he briefly talked about holding out on...OTA's. He tried to do what he thought worked with these guys. The message to future candidates for a deal here is good luck trying to figure out what that is.

Dunn has 9 players he represents here...

What you call "vindictive" I call "not willing to get screwed over by the team".

 

[BradyManny]

According to Bedard's sources the divide remained over the guaranteed money and a third year. They never managed to bridge that gap, meaning they could not even agree on having a third season. That's not an agent screw up. That's a total unwillingness on the part of the team to budge beyond their 2 year $16M offer of a year ago. Even for a guy who since then put up record setting numbers.


Patriots, Wes Welker fail to reach new deal - Extra Points - Boston.com

I've been pretty in the middle on this one so far. We don't know what the guaranteed money Welker was asking for - but considering we're using the tag on him this year and that there's a fair chance he would justify the use of it next year, that issue seems silly for the Pats to not budge on. And the third year...it's not often the Pats FO does something puzzling.

They are miscast as not paying top dollar for talent, but we know that's not the case (Brady, Mayo, Wilfork) - but if this situation played out as indicated, it's a real head-scratcher.