Is Pioli as good as some teams think?

[Deus Irae]

Apparently the standards for a 1st rounders optimum expected level of production has diminished on the board somehow.

If a 1st rounder makes it as a starter on your team doesn't automatically mean they are a great player.

What if that position was extremely weak on your team to begin with and the drafted player offers a marginal upgrade to the position.....and he starts.

Does that make that player a great draft pick?

As for Hobbs. He sucks as a starter. Period. Not his fault though.....as the team is putting him in a position he is not cut out for due to necessity.

Don't blame the board for your inability to understand what a bust is and your inability to evaluate talent. It's not the board's fault that you don't know what you're talking about in this particular area.

 

[amazinPats]

Why are you acting like this?

I do agree with Lifer in one aspect: mention anything on this forum which might be construed as "negative" even if it is a realistic view, and you get some idiots jumping on you.

My take on this particular topic is that Pioli is valuable but I don't think the Pats will necessarily skip a beat. Our drafting has been above average, imo, but there are other teams who consistently draft as well if not better. I think of Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Indianapolis as three examples. Parcells is a terrific judge of talent. He benefits whichever organization he joins when he runs the draft war room.

Pats have hit and miss on free agents, but this is mostly because cost is so important to them. I think Pioli's great contribution has to do with cap management as opposed to talent scouting. He and BB really worked well together. BB has an economics degree, so he'll likely continue to keep the team out of cap Hell in the future.

One secret to good draft picking is...

having lots of draft picks! The Pats consistently stock up on mid round picks which certainly helps the team find player gems. Not sure if Pioli and BB are that much better than average as far as finding quality players. They are good for sure, but there are better people out there. I think that BB is such a good coach that he turns some average players into good contributing players. We've seen this mirrored by the performances of average free agents when they join the team.

Yes, Pioli is a good guy to have at GM, but we will be just fine without him.

 

[Deus Irae]

Some data on first round players:

Cold, Hard Football Facts.com: The sure thing: first-round DTs

Notice that, for the time frame given, only about half the tight ends drafted in the first round became 5 year starters. Graham's certainly made that percentage, and next year will be Watson's 5th season as a starter. The only year he hasn't been a starter was the rookie season where he was lost to injury.

As I said earlier, maybe it's your definition of 'bust' being just completely skewed.

 

[PushnPencils]

I do agree with Lifer in one aspect: mention anything on this forum which might be construed as "negative" even if it is a realistic view, and you get some idiots jumping on you.

My take on this particular topic is that Pioli is valuable but I don't think the Pats will necessarily skip a beat. Our drafting has been above average, imo, but there are other teams who consistently draft as well if not better. I think of Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Indianapolis as three examples. Parcells is a terrific judge of talent. He benefits whichever organization he joins when he runs the draft war room.

Pats have hit and miss on free agents, but this is mostly because cost is so important to them. I think Pioli's great contribution has to do with cap management as opposed to talent scouting. He and BB really worked well together. BB has an economics degree, so he'll likely continue to keep the team out of cap Hell in the future.

One secret to good draft picking is...

having lots of draft picks! The Pats consistently stock up on mid round picks which certainly helps the team find player gems. Not sure if Pioli and BB are that much better than average as far as finding quality players. They are good for sure, but there are better people out there. I think that BB is such a good coach that he turns some average players into good contributing players. We've seen this mirrored by the performances of average free agents when they join the team.

Yes, Pioli is a good guy to have at GM, but we will be just fine without him.

Stop making sense dude.

Great post.

 

[Fanfrom1960]

OFF TOPIC. I had to Google Ernie Adams because I'm not sure I've ever heard of him. The article below about Adams came up, very well written I think, but it also has some good stuff about Belichick.

ESPN.com - E-ticket: Who is this guy?

 

[DaBruinz]

thats different than running down Pioli, to revise history in order to deal with the fact he may be going, which people are already doing.

i love how suddenly their drafting sucks. Yeah, Mayo was a bust. Meriweather. Seymour. Brady. Warren. Wilfork. Green. Samuel. Graham. Branch. Givens. Light. Koppen. Kazur. Mankins. Gostkowski. Cassel. Yeah, what do Belichick and Pioli know anyway???

This is why you suck as a poster, LIFER. You exaggerate to the extreme and really have no clue what you are talking abou. No one has revised history and no one has said that Pioli and Belichick suck at drafting in this thread. There have been one or two SELECT POSTERS (not the majority by any stretch of the imagination) who have said that they felt that the drafting hasn't been good the last couple of years. But not beyond that.

 

[TripleOption]

Suddenly Ernie Adams is the Messiah. Yes, the whole key to the dynasty is Ernie Adams.
The Father, The Son, and Ernie Adams.

Pioli sucked. Ernie Adams was the whole key the entire time. Belichick could leave and we would be ok if Ernie Adams stayed.

Not "suddenly". Only for about 30 years.

ESPN.com - E-ticket: Who is this guy?

 

[T-ShirtDynasty]

Pioli sucked.

Not one person has said that, and I doubt one person here thinks it.

Ernie Adams was the whole key the entire time. Belichick could leave and we would be ok if Ernie Adams stayed.

Impossible. Belichick leaves, Ernie goes with him. The Vulcan Mind-meld only works within the same building.

I do agree with Lifer in one aspect: mention anything on this forum which might be construed as "negative" even if it is a realistic view, and you get some idiots jumping on you.

Ummm... Lifer was the one doing the jumping. OP made no sweeping judgment on Piloi. Asked some legitimate questions looking for feedback, and got jumped on. Other than that good post.

 

[DaBruinz]

Graham was a bust. Watson a bust. Maroney a bust. Chad Jackson a bust. Hobbs overused bust. Most high round busts where the most money and commitment is made.

Graham was NOT a bust. Watson is not a bust. Maroney is not a bust. Hobbs is not a bust. Before making statements that show yourself to be an ignorant person, you might want to do some research.

I think the thing about Maroney and Jackson that hurts is guys like Dangelo Williams, Addai and Santonia Holmes were taken by some of our biggest rivals and are all Pro Bowlers. Not to mention Michael Turner and Bob Sanders.

The Pro Bowl means NOTHING. Addai was 2 years OLDER than Maroney when he was drafted. He had 5 years in college to Maroney's 3. That made him a more polished back. However, he's been injured almost as much as Maroney.

D'Angelo Williams was considered a bust by Carolina fans until he had a break out season this year.

Michael Turner? What year was he drafted? 2004. Late in the 5th round. Did the Patriots have a RB need? Yep. And they used a 2nd round pick to acquire one by the name of Corey Dillon.

Bob Sanders? You're kidding right? He's a guy who spends more time off the field than on. And you are complaining about Maroney being a bust? Not only are your "standards" whacked, you can't even apply them the same way to other players.

Call it fickle but there has been almost an equal amount of draft and FA ineptitude as there has been success.

Take Brady out of the mix, and imho you get a mixed bag.

I would assume that BB has the final say on all of these, so let's see how Pioli does on his own.

You clearly are whacked in the head... Your standards are garbage and you don't apply them fairly to all players.. You claim a mixed bag, yet most observers look at the Patriots as being one of the top 5 teams in terms of drafting. Have they had a few stinkers? Sure. ALL TEAMS have.

 

[Lampshade]

I do agree with Lifer in one aspect: mention anything on this forum which might be construed as "negative" even if it is a realistic view, and you get some idiots jumping on you.

My take on this particular topic is that Pioli is valuable but I don't think the Pats will necessarily skip a beat. Our drafting has been above average, imo, but there are other teams who consistently draft as well if not better. I think of Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Indianapolis as three examples. Parcells is a terrific judge of talent. He benefits whichever organization he joins when he runs the draft war room.

Pats have hit and miss on free agents, but this is mostly because cost is so important to them. I think Pioli's great contribution has to do with cap management as opposed to talent scouting. He and BB really worked well together. BB has an economics degree, so he'll likely continue to keep the team out of cap Hell in the future.

One secret to good draft picking is...

having lots of draft picks! The Pats consistently stock up on mid round picks which certainly helps the team find player gems. Not sure if Pioli and BB are that much better than average as far as finding quality players. They are good for sure, but there are better people out there. I think that BB is such a good coach that he turns some average players into good contributing players. We've seen this mirrored by the performances of average free agents when they join the team.

Yes, Pioli is a good guy to have at GM, but we will be just fine without him.

Part of the problem with discussing draft picks is that we only notice the successful picks of other teams, and rarely take note of their 2nd and 3rd rounders that don't pan out. For example, Baltimore are often cited as the best drafting team in the NFL, but along with great picks they've had a number of early rounders that didn't pan out. Since 2005:

Mark Clayton 1st round 2005
Dan Cody 2nd round 2005
Adam Terry 2nd round 2005
David Pittman 3rd round 2006
Yamon Figures 3rd round 2007

Figures is nothing more than a KR, Clayton has been a huge disappointment after his 2nd year, and Cody and Pittman are both long gone. We of course only remember the good picks like Ngata, and Grubbs.

All teams have bad picks, and the Patriots are as good as any at avoiding them. Chad Jackson being the only complete non-contributor I can think of over a similar time frame.

 

[DaBruinz]

Being a serviceable player doesn't make you a successful draft pick.

Actually, yes it does considering how much of a crap shoot the draft is.

Watson and Graham are busts based upon their draft position. They're not true pro-bowl caliber players. Inconsistant....injured alot.

Again, you use the Pro Bowl as a measure of success. That shows how inept you are at talent evaluation. The Pro Bowl is a popularity contests.

Graham was one of the best blocking TEs in the league AND a pretty damn good receiver when the Pats used him. The problem was that the TEAM used 4 or more OTs in each of Graham's years with the Patriots. And because of the instability at OT, the Patriots made Graham staying into to block a larger priority than using him in the receiving game.

Watson has been more than servicable. He's developed into a pretty decent blocking TE and, despite the drops he's had, has been pretty good as a receiving TE. If you are stupid and trying to compare him to a Tony Gonzalez type player, well, that shows your own ineptness at talent evaluation.

If you view them as draft successes then you need to drop the crack pipe.

You shouldn't be giving any advice to others when you are the one who is so damn ignorant here.

Hobbs as a 3rd rounder can be viewed as success as a KR. But continuing to use and view him as a starting NFL corner is silly. He may be the best we have, but nothing more than a nickel corner on many other teams.

And you base this on what? Your own talent evaluation skills? The ones that make a dead light bulb look BRIGHT? Please.. Anytime you get a starter in the 1st 3 rounds the pick is successful. When you get a starter out of the last 4 rounds, you did a helluva job picking and had a helluva lot of luck.

 

[DaBruinz]

Picking well high in the draft is critical.

Its not just production on the field.

High picks require higher salaries and usually more commitment.

How many 1st or 2nd rounders are cut in there rookie season?

Very few. Bigger signing bonuses and saving face requires them to be kept on.

Please stop. You don't have the foggiest clue as to what you are talking about.

 

[DaBruinz]

The Pats are 27-5 in spite of Hobbs' play at corner. First round money for a good blocking TE with the dropsies and TE high in draft who is just above average. Not a great blocker and not a great pass catcher.

Hobbs is a very good KR and as a 3rd rounder that may not make him a bust, but the team having to unfortunately keep his as a starter has been an unfortunate circumstance.

Listen, You don't know wtf you are talking about. The 1st round money you are talking about that went Graham was a WHOPPING 5 year deal worth about 9 million, IN TOTAL. Watson's contract was a 6 year deal worth 7.5 million to start with incentives that could add another 5.5 million in the last 2 years. As for your evaluation of Graham, I have news for you idiot, and yes, you are an idiot, Graham had ONE bad year. The other years he had no more than 2 drops. That fact. Graham was also, arguably, the best blocking TE in the league. To say he was only good shows how ignorant you are. Watson's contract is not restrictive in any way shape or form.

You would be correct on the 1st round contract is you were talking about a player who was drafted in the top 5. But we're not. We're talking about Graham who was drafted 21st and Watson who was taken 32nd. Their contracts were not nearly as restrictive as you have deluded yourself into believing.

 

[DaBruinz]

Whatever that point may be....still looking for it.

You're welcome.

Of course you are. Because you clearly are enamored with your own ignorance.

 

[DaBruinz]

Our FA signees have largely been bad. Other than the big money guys (Colvin, Thomas), our FA have helped little with Harrison the noteable exception. The trades are where we've been great. Dillon. Welker. Moss. Draft day trades that acquired Wilfork and Warren. That's where we've done fantastic.

BBFan - I can't agree here. The Pats free agent signings of late have been decent at best, but you need to go back through the lists. 2000 and 2001 were exceptional. And even after that, the Pats pulled some nice FA signings.

The Pats have had 1 trade that was a stinker. That was Duane Starks.

I did up a listing a few days ago that showed all the Free agents that the Pats have brought in since 2000. Its an amazing number. I'll have to see if I can't find that thread again.

Here is the thread:
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...10/202323-free-agent-signings-21-century.html

From 2001 to 2007 the Pats made at least 112 free agent signings Including UDFA. From my own view, I see 10 Free agent BUSTS, 14 of them were decent, 25 of them were good signings, 3 were BOOMS, and the rest I had no opinion one way or the other on..

 

[DaBruinz]

So....Deion Branch got a huge deal from Seattle and Asante got a huge deal from Philly. Ask those teams if they were worth that money.

Hindsight is ALWAYS 20/20. No wonder you think you are so smart.... I bet you are one of those people who made the corrections on your tests in school and then told mommy and daddy that you got 100 on them..

Hobbs and Watson have gotten alot of playing time...because like on any team....you play what you have. And what a team has at certain positions sometimes isn't even close to good or even serviceable. If Watson got hurt, Thomas would get all those snaps.

Wow.. there is one brain cell that has some intelligence in your head.. But then, that mantra applies to ALL the teams in the NFL. There is no team that has top end talent at every position.

 

[DaBruinz]

Combined Graham and Watson stats for 2008.

54 rec

598 yards

6 TD.

Plus some nifty blocking.

Let's throw tons of of dough at them.

I love how everyone of your posts just digs the hole deeper and deeper and proves to everyone how little you know and understand about the game.

 

[DaBruinz]

The crux of my argument was where they were drafted.

If Dan Graham or Watson were available at #31 in the first round and you one of your needs was TE, would you still take them or address other needs?

Neither player, even a great blocker like Graham has produced at a level of a 1st rounder.

As first rounders, they are both busts. As 3rd or 4th rounders and the money's associated with those positions, they then have value.

WRONG.... Its clear that your expectations are the crux of your ignorance.

Tell me something, do you fault a player who tears tears his ACL while playing the game? (other than Martin Gramatica). Do you fault a player who's ankle gets shredded on a hit?

Its clear you don't understand the values (money or on the field) that you claim to be talking about.

 

[amazinPats]

Whatever people think of previous drafts, I must say that I am very pleased with last year's draft. We hauled in Mayo, Crable, Wilhite, Wheatley, who I think will all be solid over the next few years. Granted, Crable is a bit of a project. Toss in Guyton and Law firm as undrafted pickups and it has been a hell of a year as far as stocking up on talent that will pay off dividends over the next few years.

A silver lining behind all the injuries this year is the playing time these guys managed to get in (sans Crable.) Nice!

 

[DaBruinz]

......

........says the forum genius.

Everyone compared to you is a genius. Deus Irae happens to be extremely smart and all he's done is let you prove how ignorant you truly are.