Is Pioli as good as some teams think?

[VrabelMayeWin]

You label Graham, Watson and Hobbs busts? That pretty much eliminates you as a talent evaluator.

They weren't busts but they certainly weren't underdrafted. For two #1s and a #3 we reveived average at best production. That said, other than the TE and Maroney we have done very well in the first round no doubt.

 

[Rob0729]

Graham was a bust. Watson a bust. Maroney a bust. Chad Jackson a bust. Hobbs overused bust. Most high round busts where the most money and commitment is made.

I think the thing about Maroney and Jackson that hurts is guys like Dangelo Williams, Addai and Santonia Holmes were taken by some of our biggest rivals and are all Pro Bowlers. Not to mention Michael Turner and Bob Sanders.

Call it fickle but there has been almost an equal amount of draft and FA ineptitude as there has been success.

Take Brady out of the mix, and imho you get a mixed bag.

I would assume that BB has the final say on all of these, so let's see how Pioli does on his own.

A few things. Graham wasn't a bust, neither were Watson or Hobbs. You can argue that they weren't worth their draft pick (although Hobbs was a pretty good pick up in the third round).

Would you really want Addai? I sure as hell wouldn't. He is getting outplayed by Dominic Rhodes in Indy right now and has be less productive than Maroney since the Colts played the Pats last year.

Bob Sanders would have been a great pick up on paper, but on the field where he rarely is seen it isn't as big of a pick up as people make him out to be. The guy has missed more games due to injury than he has played and he plays in a finesse defense. Imagine how injured he would be if he played on a team that asked him to be as physical more consistently like Rodney Harrison.

As for misses, the Pats have been as successful or more so than virtually every other team in the league. Every team have misses even at the top.

 

[Rob0729]

They weren't busts but they certainly weren't underdrafted. For two #1s and a #3 we reveived average at best production. That said, other than the TE and Maroney we have done very well in the first round no doubt.

Hobbs is a solid #2 CB in the league and not to mention one of the best kick returners. He might not be a #1 CB, but as a solid #2 that is good value in the third round.

 

[PushnPencils]

You label Graham, Watson and Hobbs busts? That pretty much eliminates you as a talent evaluator.

Being a serviceable player doesn't make you a successful draft pick.

Watson and Graham are busts based upon their draft position. They're not true pro-bowl caliber players. Inconsistant....injured alot.

If you view them as draft successes then you need to drop the crack pipe.

Hobbs as a 3rd rounder can be viewed as success as a KR. But continuing to use and view him as a starting NFL corner is silly. He may be the best we have, but nothing more than a nickel corner on many other teams.

 

[billdog3484]

i definitely wouldnt characterize hobbs, graham and watson as busts either. however, i think that graham and watson failed to reach their expectations. i think thats a fair assessment. and hobbs, i couldnt be happier with him. you cant blame him that hes a #2CB playing #1CB. he does a real good job. and he does make some plays

 

[Deus Irae]

Being a serviceable player doesn't make you a successful draft pick.

Watson and Graham are busts based upon their draft position. They're not true pro-bowl caliber players. Inconsistant....injured alot.

If you view them as draft successes then you need to drop the crack pipe.

Hobbs as a 3rd rounder can be viewed as success as a KR. But continuing to use and view him as a starting NFL corner is silly. He may be the best we have, but nothing more than a nickel corner on many other teams.

Again, you clearly don't know how to evaluate talent. Hobbs was a 3rd round draft pick and is the starting cornerback on a team that's gone 27-5 in the past 2 years, yet you labeled him a bust. Daniel Graham is probably the best blocking tight end in the NFL. Watson is clearly a better than average tight end in the NFL. Your talent evaluation level is so low that you might be qualified to be the next Lions GM.

 

[Lifer]

Again, you clearly don't know how to evaluate talent. Hobbs was a 3rd round draft pick and is the starting cornerback on a team that's gone 27-5 in the past 2 years, yet you labeled him a bust. Daniel Graham is probably the best blocking tight end in the NFL. Watson is clearly a better than average tight end in the NFL. Your talent evaluation level is so low that you might be qualified to be the next Lions GM.

:disagreement:

 

[PushnPencils]

Picking well high in the draft is critical.

Its not just production on the field.

High picks require higher salaries and usually more commitment.

How many 1st or 2nd rounders are cut in there rookie season?

Very few. Bigger signing bonuses and saving face requires them to be kept on.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I also think Pioli can be replaced if Belichick can find a good talent evaluator who can understand exactly what Belichick is looking for in a player. Not an easy task to find, but not impossible.

Pioli's replacement doesn't need to understand "exactly" what BB is looking for, he needs to ensure that he and all the Player Personnel objectively grade and document the prospects they evaluate. If BB tells Pioli he wants another DL, Pioli should just need to pull up the records for available DL, pull out the top five or so, review them to determine if an update is needed (new physical, bring him in to re-test his timed speed, etc.), maybe rewatch the film with his staff, then provide the material to BB with his recommendation. BB does his own review with Pees and Pepper, makes his pick, sends back feedback on the records/report, and Bonecrusher Jones is brought in and signed.

 

[PushnPencils]

Again, you clearly don't know how to evaluate talent. Hobbs was a 3rd round draft pick and is the starting cornerback on a team that's gone 27-5 in the past 2 years, yet you labeled him a bust. Daniel Graham is probably the best blocking tight end in the NFL. Watson is clearly a better than average tight end in the NFL. Your talent evaluation level is so low that you might be qualified to be the next Lions GM.

The Pats are 27-5 in spite of Hobbs' play at corner. First round money for a good blocking TE with the dropsies and TE high in draft who is just above average. Not a great blocker and not a great pass catcher.

Hobbs is a very good KR and as a 3rd rounder that may not make him a bust, but the team having to unfortunately keep his as a starter has been an unfortunate circumstance.

 

[PushnPencils]

I'll give Hobbs credit in that he gets VERY few pass interference penalties.......


.....although it's tough to interfere when your 2 yards behind the receiver.

 

[Deus Irae]

The Pats are 27-5 in spite of Hobbs' play at corner. First round money for a good blocking TE with the dropsies and TE high in draft who is just above average. Not a great blocker and not a great pass catcher.

Hobbs is a very good KR and as a 3rd rounder that may not make him a bust, but the team having to unfortunately keep his as a starter has been an unfortunate circumstance.

You keep making my point for me, so thanks.

 

[PushnPencils]

You keep making my point for me, so thanks.

Whatever that point may be....still looking for it.

You're welcome.

 

[Kontradiction]

Our FA signees have largely been bad. Other than the big money guys (Colvin, Thomas), our FA have helped little with Harrison the noteable exception. The trades are where we've been great. Dillon. Welker. Moss. Draft day trades that acquired Wilfork and Warren. That's where we've done fantastic.

I was actually thinking about those three when I said "free agents". But eh, you can't be right all the time.

 

[Deus Irae]

Whatever that point may be....still looking for it.

You're welcome.

Graham is such a bust that he got a big multi-year deal from Denver. Hobbs has been a starter for most of the time he's been a Patriot. Watson's such a bust that only Moss (969) and Welker (838) took more offensive snaps than Watson (837) among the offensive skill players.


You can't evaluate talent if you're seriously claiming those players are busts. It's really that simple.

 

[PushnPencils]

Graham is such a bust that he got a big multi-year deal from Denver. Hobbs has been a starter for most of the time he's been a Patriot. Watson's such a bust that only Moss (969) and Welker (838) took more offensive snaps than Watson (837) among the offensive skill players.


You can't evaluate talent if you're seriously claiming those players are busts. It's really that simple.

So....Deion Branch got a huge deal from Seattle and Asante got a huge deal from Philly. Ask those teams if they were worth that money.

Hobbs and Watson have gotten alot of playing time...because like on any team....you play what you have. And what a team has at certain positions sometimes isn't even close to good or even serviceable. If Watson got hurt, Thomas would get all those snaps.

 

[TheGodInAGreyHoodie]

Yes and no.

No, I don't think the Patriots will see a huge drop off if he leaves.

Yes, I believe he (particularly if coupled with Josh McDaniel's) could turn a crappy team such as the Lions, Chiefs, Raiders etc around in 2-3 year.

NO -- Scouting even more than coaching is a team effort. If Scott leaves the structure by which the NEP assess players will still be in place. While Scott's opinion of a player will be missed. It is only one voice among the scouts and coaches in deciding on a player. I doubt there have been situations where we drafted a player nobody else like but Scott liked nor avoided an eventual bust that everyone else liked and Scott didn't.

And yes, he is our capoligist. A role that is not nearly as difficult as it once thought to be. I bet Miguel could do the job just fine.

YES -- While Scott is not the entire scouting department. He knows exactly how a winning team does its player selection, training camp, off season program, game planning, etc. He should be able to duplicated that elsewhere.

 

[PushnPencils]

Combined Graham and Watson stats for 2008.

54 rec

598 yards

6 TD.

Plus some nifty blocking.

Let's throw tons of of dough at them.

 

[Kontradiction]

Combined Graham and Watson stats for 2008.

54 rec

598 yards

6 TD.

Plus some nifty blocking.

Let's throw tons of of dough at them.

So blocking is underrated, in your opinion?

 

[PushnPencils]

So blocking is underrated, in your opinion?

Blocking is very important. But how much are you willing to invest in a TE who is a good blocker but a suspect offensive threat.

Do Watson or Graham in hindsight have 1st round value or the right to be paid what Denver paid for Graham? No way.