Is McDaniels too conservative on offense?

[Ring 6]

There are so many issues with this team. One of them is the play calling for sure. Maybe they are still limiting the play book for Mac and this offense making it easier for defenses to see what is coming. I believe that was brought up a while back. When you run the same damn plays it makes is easier for better prepared teams to defend it. Colts and Phins come to mind. Colts had an extra week to prepare. Is this play calling or the play book or Mac still being too green to call off a play and make the right change at the LOS? You tell me!

That being said, this is it on Saturday night. Can't be conservative here. Go for it on 4th when appropriate. Chuck a few DPI "Joe Flacco" specials down the field. Run the last 4 trick plays they haven't used this season. Fake a punt. Let Fecking Go!

Your assumption that they “run the same damn plays” is unfounded. Every team has a limited number of plays in a game plan and use plays that work more times, the patriots are no different than anyone else.
The Patriots are #2 in % of drives they score on. They are #11 in red zone TD% after starting the season very badly with a rookie qb so they are probably top 5 since week 4 or 5.
They are #6 in scoring.
The offense has been good. The defense has been good
The team is in the playoffs.
“Change everything” and okay like you are the lions facing the 1985 Bears is silly.
They split with Buffalo. They need to make adjustments and build a gameplay that takes advantage of mismatches and what they have on tape in those 2 games. Not act like they have no prayer and play loser football.

 

[Ring 6]

It us how it works .. you keep throwing the same pattern reams gameplan for it.... How many times have they used the mac roll right and throw to myers for the first down

Jesus. You honestly think that rolling right, no throwing to the open receiver is the same play?
Go ahead and look at some film and show me receivers running the same pattern every play.
Wow.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

Teams are crowding the line of scrimmage...so the solution is to throw close to the line of scrimmage instead of run?

While I don't think this Pats team has the best matchups to consistently work the mid and deep third of the field that's the only way the defense can be forced to back off (even hitting a couple screens or 5 yd slants/outs for bigger gains off missed tackles won't back off a scheme of 8-9 in the box).

I may agree that the Pats do need to "force" the opposition into different looks, but given those defensive schemes are specifically to counter BOTH run and short passing game, "dink and dunk" isn't necessarily the best countermove.

Play action to the middle and deep third in the early (and obviously has to be executed - Bourne, Henry and Agholor are the best of what the Pats have for that approach) series to me would be the only method to get the defense to fall back into deeper schemes.

Too bad you left out the rest of my post with taking some shots deep. Might point is get mac throwing early

 

[Ivan]

When did I talk about the bucs?

When you brought up Brady, who plays for your team. Brady left two years ago, and Ian gave you Bucs fans a forum to keep talking about him if you want to. He’s no longer a Patriot and continually injecting him into discussions here is the reason you were given your own forum.

 

[Pats1971]

The receivers have said that's partly because Mac throws a very catchable ball.

When you brought up Brady, who plays for your team. Brady left two years ago, and Ian gave you Bucs fans a forum to keep talking about him if you want to. He’s no longer a Patriot and continually injecting him into discussions here is the reason you were given your own forum.

I brought up, why all of the sudden is Mcdaniels this horrible OC who is conservative. He didnt get here last year he has been a coach on the team for years. Its a pretty fairly simple question. Either answer it, or move on. Also, I never mentioned the Bucs at all. I asked when Brady was here and Mcdaniels was coach, how is that about the bucs? You are not very smart are you?

 

[Froob]

Bill needs to find his balls and start going for it at midfield on 4th and short.

 

[Family]

Disagree on this, I thought Bourne was their best receiver this season.

Wow , thats an interesting fact , I did think that Myers and Bourne have pretty safe hands (mind you I did not read if this incl all recvrs and backs )

BOURNE

2018 - 42 caught - 5 dropped.
2019 - 30 caught - 3 dropped.
2020 - 49 caught - 6 dropped.

He's a nice addition to the group, but this is who you want to consistently rely on for third down completions?

Losing James White might have been the teams biggest loss, even more than J Jones.

Mac and Mc do not have a reliable third down binkie which is affecting the entire offense IMO.

 

[Ring 6]

Teams are crowding the line of scrimmage...so the solution is to throw close to the line of scrimmage instead of run?

While I don't think this Pats team has the best matchups to consistently work the mid and deep third of the field that's the only way the defense can be forced to back off (even hitting a couple screens or 5 yd slants/outs for bigger gains off missed tackles won't back off a scheme of 8-9 in the box).

I may agree that the Pats do need to "force" the opposition into different looks, but given those defensive schemes are specifically to counter BOTH run and short passing game, "dink and dunk" isn't necessarily the best countermove.

Play action to the middle and deep third in the early (and obviously has to be executed - Bourne, Henry and Agholor are the best of what the Pats have for that approach) series to me would be the only method to get the defense to fall back into deeper schemes.

Working down the field isn’t about personnel. We are t talking about throwing 40 yard passes every down. It’s about using the entire set of receivers to put stress in a defense and get a receiver open in the intermediate areas with room to run.
Different route combinations work against different coverages and situationally down and distance help create that opportunity.
The key to this game is going to be to break tendencies situationally and replace runs and short passes with intermediate area seam routes, crossers and outs, while stressing the defense by opening those up with combination routes.
The worst thing this offense has done this year is throw the ball beyond the sticks. The way to thrive at that is to do it in non obvious passing downs. A lot of it falls on Jones because regardless of the play call, he chooses where to throw. I felt I saw a maturation in Jones last week where he decided to make those throws in the second half. That would be a very good thing.

 

[Ivan]

I brought up, why all of the sudden is Mcdaniels this horrible OC who is conservative. He didnt get here last year he has been a coach on the team for years. Its a pretty fairly simple question. Either answer it, or move on. Also, I never mentioned the Bucs at all. I asked when Brady was here and Mcdaniels was coach, how is that about the bucs? You are not very smart are you?

Smart enough to not keep talking about players who left here a couple of years ago. Ian provided you with an outlet for your grievances, go use it.

 

[Boston Boxer]

BOURNE

2018 - 42 caught - 5 dropped.
2019 - 30 caught - 3 dropped.
2020 - 49 caught - 6 dropped.

He's a nice addition to the group, but this is who you want to consistently rely on for third down completions?

Losing James White might have been the teams biggest loss, even more than J Jones.

Mac and Mc do not have a reliable third down binkie which is affecting the entire offense IMO.

the third down binkie should be one of the TEs. I expect way more from Smith come next season.

 

[Family]

the third down binkie should be one of the TEs. I expect way more from Smith come next season.

Smith is more a get the ball in his hands in space, rather than a sure handed receiver, but yes he needs to be more involved. I wouldn't be surprised if Saturday that isn't the case.

Mac wants Hunter Henry to apply for the job, but he's more a second option ( and a good one) for 3rd down situations. I don't see Hunter a 6-8 catch a game player.

There's really no one here for the job except James White IMO.

 

[‘Mondre]

If anything this thread should be named “is the general mgmt too conservative?” In which case you could maybe make an argument for the coaching but as far as the roster… no.

 

[203Pat]

I think Bourne can play a vital role in their offense as the guy Jones goes to when he’s in trouble, as he gets open quickly and he’s a smart WR, but I have no confidence in Agholor. I do think they can find a veteran receiver who can widen the field, and draft a receiver to stretch the field vertically, but Belichick needs to let some one else make that pick as he sucks at drafting receivers. If they can fill those two roles then Agholor may be workable as a second option deep threat, but he has shown no ability to get open against good cornerbacks, and has to have a good match up to be effective.

I think Bourne is a great complimentary piece but he is never going to be the focal point of the offense.

 

[Ivan]

I think Bourne is a great complimentary piece but he is never going to be the focal point of the offense.

I agree, I see him more as the escape valve when Jones is in trouble, However both he and Meyers can provide depth if they can get a true 1 & 2 this off-season. Belichick was able to get away with mediocre WR’s for much of the Brady era because Brady made average players significantly better than they were, but Jones is years away from that level, so they need to get him first rate WR’s if they are going to win shot outs with teams like K.C. and Buffalo in the future.

 

[amfootball]

IMO, this has been McDaniels best season. I am not sure I understand this thread. Mac is a rookie who lacks a big arm. Josh has managed him perfectly all season while also being down his most dynamic play maker in James White and getting almost nothing out of his top paid WR Agahlor and even less out of Smith.

 

[‘Mondre]

IMO, this has been McDaniels best season. I am not sure I understand this thread. Mac is a rookie who lacks a big arm. Josh has managed him perfectly all season while also being down his most dynamic play maker in James White and getting almost nothing out of his top paid WR Agahlor and even less out of Smith.

LACKS
A BIG ARM
PERIOD

 

[RobertWeathers]

LACKS
A BIG ARM
PERIOD

Who gives a ****?

What matters are wins and Super Bowls.

 

[Ivan]

LACKS
A BIG ARM
PERIOD

Bullsh.t. Period.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree, I see him more as the escape valve when Jones is in trouble, However both he and Meyers can provide depth if they can get a true 1 & 2 this off-season. Belichick was able to get away with mediocre WR’s for much of the Brady era because Brady made average players significantly better than they were, but Jones is years away from that level, so they need to get him first rate WR’s if they are going to win shot outs with teams like K.C. and Buffalo in the future.

He is a piece. Pass plays have progressions. Your wr1 isn’t the first progression on every play. The majority of pass plays go to the first progression because the play is designed with a combination of routes most likely to get the first progression open. Every receiver is the first progression on some plays. The better ones get open more often when they are the first progression. This is why you had times when Brady’s favorite receiver was whoever is open and times when he threw a lot to welker, gronk, etc.
He looked at welker more because welker was the first progression more than anyone else ever was, and when he looked welker was open.

 

[PScottman]

The worst thing this offense has done this year is throw the ball beyond the sticks. The way to thrive at that is to do it in non obvious passing downs. A lot of it falls on Jones because regardless of the play call, he chooses where to throw. I felt I saw a maturation in Jones last week where he decided to make those throws in the second half. That would be a very good thing.

I think we're saying similar things. The Patriots stay with their strengths (as do most NFL teams) the preponderance of their play calling and then will "take shots" based on looks/tendencies they see the defense do over the course of a game. A lot of folks here call that "too conservative" because they're not throwing it 15-20 yards in a 3rd of plays.

They're not a vertical offense nor should they be, but calling for "dink and dunk" as a solution against a 8-9 man box likewise doesn't make much sense.

There's middle ground of using play action throws and middle third routes especially early in the game (first couple series as a tendency breaker or as you say in nonobvious passing downs) which could loosen that short third of the field up for both running and passing, but it's likewise riskier (Buffalo is good in the secondary even with White out) and does absolutely rely on good decision making by the QB.