Im a big no on lamar jackson...

[XLIX]

113.3 is the 12th highest single season passer rating in the history of the league.

Lamar's career passer rating is 13th all time...

12. Steve Young 96.8
13. Lamar Jackson 96.7
14. Peyton Manning 96.5

Yet you say he "can't pass" lol! They should remove Peyton from the HOF!

It is misleading to use passer rating to try and establish a QBs place in history. The stat is incredibly skewed to favor recent players. To show how skewed that stat is....

He may be 13th all time, but he is only 10th all time amongst QBs still playing in 2022.

Or, to put it another way, 10 of the top 13 all time passer ratings were active QB's last year. Only 2 players in the top 40 played full careers ending prior to the year 2000.

 

[Wozzy]

Do you think Watson, or really any quarterback in the NFL, dreams of being a unanimous league MVP?

They probably wanted to be prom king also.

I’m sure they all would rather be Super Bowl MVP and remembered as a winner instead.

 

[Wozzy]

RBs aren't paid what they used to be because it's 2023 and they're relatively unimportant in today's NFL. All QBs are getting paid, including "running quarterbacks."

NFL teams don’t need QB’s to run the ball, they have RB’s for that, they’re cheap and replaceable.

NFL teams need QB’s who can pass well. Just because the Giants do dumb Giant things and pay Daniel Jones doesn’t make it smart. And even the Giants were smart enough to give themselves a cheap out after two years of Jones contract.

Lamar Jackson can’t get a contract, Josh Allen and Kyler Murray got theirs after year three when they still had years left on their rookie deals. Jackson is entering year six.

Nobody wants to pay a guy who relies entirely on his legs to create passing offense… especially when he hasn’t played more than 12 games the past two seasons.

You want to conflate QB’s who can pass well but also run with Lamar… he can’t pass well. His accuracy numbers are the result of low volume passing and scheme… not pure skill as a passer.

 

[Wozzy]

113.3 is the 12th highest single season passer rating in the history of the league.

Lamar's career passer rating is 13th all time...

12. Steve Young 96.8
13. Lamar Jackson 96.7
14. Peyton Manning 96.5

Yet you say he "can't pass" lol! They should remove Peyton from the HOF!

Hahaha… you’re talking about an era where defenders could actually play defense versus now.

You’re talking about two guys who passed at league leading number of pass attempts in relation to their peers versus Lamar attempting the 26th fewest passes in the league in 2019.

You ignore evidence you can’t refute… you simply close your eyes to facts and use misdirection. If the truth was on your side you wouldn’t have to obfuscate the truth. Lies have to be covered up, the truth can run around naked.

 

[crawhammer]

It is misleading to use passer rating to try and establish a QBs place in history. The stat is incredibly skewed to favor recent players. To show how skewed that stat is....

He may be 13th all time, but he is only 10th all time amongst QBs still playing in 2022.

Or, to put it another way, 10 of the top 13 all time passer ratings were active QB's last year. Only 2 players in the top 40 played full careers ending prior to the year 2000.

I realize this (not the misleading part). I'm just posting the facts.

Hahaha… you’re talking about an era where defenders could actually play defense versus now.

Peyton got every break and favorable call under the sun for the vast majority of his career. He never won a unanimous MVP award though.

They probably wanted to be prom king also.

Is that the same as being recognized by the ENTIRE WORLD as the greatest football player on the planet?? What high school did you attend?

Nobody wants to pay a guy who relies entirely on his legs to create passing offense… especially when he hasn’t played more than 12 games the past two seasons.

Nobody wants to pay him? Literally nobody? Is that what you're saying now? I'll get back to you after he agrees to his multi-$100 mil contract.

 

[Wozzy]

I realize this (not the misleading part). I'm just posting the facts.

Misleading is having a conversation about passing and not acknowledging that a guy who passes 200 times and a guy who passes 600 times are dissimilar.

Peyton got every break and favorable call under the sun for the vast majority of his career. He never won a unanimous MVP award though.

Peyton played when defenders could hurt QB’s and corners could play physical with receivers.

Peyton also led the NFL in pass attempts three times, passing yards three times…. Lamar is annually bottom of the league in both. Comparing them as passers is ridiculous… oh yeah, Manning has two rings.

Is that the same as being recognized by the ENTIRE WORLD as the greatest football player on the planet?? What high school did you attend?

Yes, prom king is a popularity contest. Super Bowl MVP means you won something of substance. There are no moral victories.

Nobody wants to pay him? Literally nobody? Is that what you're saying now? I'll get back to you after he agrees to his multi-$100 mil contract.

Year six, a great passing QB would have been locked up after year three.

 

[RodThePat]

I find it incredible that the discussion always turns into "Lamar isn't Peyton Manning" as if the only thing that matters isn't how much better he'd make the Patriots, but how he fares against some of the greatest players ever to play at his position. Who cares how he gets to his production, when healthy he has averaged 4700 yards and 36 TDs of combined offense per 17 games. Mac would have to go 29-1 over his next 30 starts to have the same winning% as he does. When he's on the field Lamar both wins and produces at an absolutely elite level. To disregard and minimize that due to "style" or what you believe can and can't work in the NFL is meaningless. The injury concerns past and future are 100% real and there's reason to not want to give him a huge contract plus trade two first rounders because of that, I completely get it. But the guy ranks 8th in EPA/Play among 65 QBs with over 300 attempts since he became a starter in the league. He's a great player. To state otherwise is ridiculous.

 

[yukon cornelius]

I find it incredible that the discussion always turns into "Lamar isn't Peyton Manning" as if the only thing that matters isn't how much better he'd make the Patriots, but how he fares against some of the greatest players ever to play at his position. Who cares how he gets to his production, when healthy he has averaged 4700 yards and 36 TDs of combined offense per 17 games. Mac would have to go 29-1 over his next 30 starts to have the same winning% as he does. When he's on the field Lamar both wins and produces at an absolutely elite level. To disregard and minimize that due to "style" or what you believe can and can't work in the NFL is meaningless. The injury concerns past and future are 100% real and there's reason to not want to give him a huge contract plus trade two first rounders because of that, I completely get it. But the guy ranks 8th in EPA/Play among 65 QBs with over 300 attempts since he became a starter in the league. He's a great player. To state otherwise is ridiculous.

winning percentages are not an individual stat, nor are they a QB stat

winning percentage is a team stat

 

[crawhammer]

Misleading is having a conversation about passing and not acknowledging that a guy who passes 200 times and a guy who passes 600 times are somehow dissimilar.

200 times?? Who's that? Lamar hasn't had less than 326 pass attempts since becoming the starter. You're the one misleading here.

Did you ever think Lamar's pass attempts are down because 1) his receivers suck and 2) he's a phenomenal runner who has several designed runs per game.

Look at the more relevant numbers here which are combined yards (passing & rushing) and combined TD's per game.

Lamar Jackson Combined Passing & Rushing Yards Per Game

2019 = 289
2020 = 251
2021 = 304
2022 = 251

Lamar Jackson Combined Passing & Rushing TDs Per Game

2019 = 2.9
2020 = 2.2
2021 = 1.5
2022 = 1.7

Just for reference...

Aaron Rodgers Combined Passing & Rushing Yards Per Game

2019 = 262
2020 = 278
2021 = 264
2022 = 223

Aaron Rodgers Combined Passing & Rushing TDs Per Game

2019 = 1.7
2020 = 3.2
2021 = 2.5
2022 = 1.6

Of the 8 categories Lamar came out ahead of Rodgers in 5 (63%). Tell me now how Rodgers, who won 2 NFL MVPs in that timeframe, is a bum.

And Just because...

Mac Jones Combined Passing & Rushing Yards Per Game

2021 = 231
2022 = 221

Mac Jones Combined Passing & Rushing TDs Per Game

2021 = 1.3
2022 = 1.0

Ouch!

 

[RodThePat]

winning percentages are not an individual stat, nor are they a QB stat

winning percentage is a team stat

Just so happens by sheer coincidence that historically all of the guys who consistently won at anything close to that level happened to be great QBs. The only one who has won similarly at that volume who isn't one is Garoppolo, and he hasn't been asked to produce offense nearly at the same level Lamar has.

 

[yukon cornelius]

Just so happens by sheer coincidence that historically all of the guys who consistently won at anything close to that level happened to be great QBs. The only one who has won similarly at that volume who isn't one is Garoppolo, and he hasn't been asked to produce offense nearly at the same level Lamar has.

QBs don't win anything

teams with great QBs often win, but teams with great defenses and mediocre QBs have also won......

wins are not an individual stat in the NFL

teams QBed by Jim McMahon have a .680 win percentage......30 points higher than teams QBed by Steve Young, therefore we can conclude that Jim McMahon is a better QB than Steve Young, or were the Bears of that era simply a better team?

 

[duc359]

Peyton played when defenders could hurt QB’s

Thru 2006 yes, after not so much, that is in large part why BB went after Moss and Welker

The other point for all: using career QB Rating is also wrong when using guys that played into their decline. Take the years Jackson has played and look at the guys active who have QB Ratings in the same or better range in the same amount of years.

The current love affair with running QB's is as usual an over reaction. Bobby Douglas, Vick, and even Grogan isn't the way. The way is a Steve Young type that is accurate, killer arm, very dangerous running but, tuck it an go 2-4 times a game when nobody is open and there is a way forward to get yardage and a place to slide. Jackson will be long gone at year 20, 15, and my bet: 10 or less as a major force. If BB drafted him great, but he didn't best case is maybe get the value back it takes to get him/pay for him. I rate that as < 10%.

 

[RodThePat]

QBs don't win anything

teams with great QBs often win, but teams with great defenses and mediocre QBs have also won......

wins are not an individual stat in the NFL

teams QBed by Jim McMahon have a .680 win percentage......30 points higher than teams QBed by Steve Young, therefore we can conclude that Jim McMahon is a better QB than Steve Young, or were the Bears of that era simply a better team?

No, we can conclude Jim McMahon was a better than average passer for his era on low volume when he accumulated most of his wins, similar to Garoppolo now, and Steve Young had a better winning percentage than McMahon on incomparably more volume after he became the starter for the 49ers. "QBs with high career winning percentages generally are very good players, especially with high usage" doesn't equal "we should rank QBs solely by career winning percentage", that's an obvious strawman. Lamar has a great winning percentage on a high overall usage rate and the least cap space allocated to receivers since he came into the league. He's been asked to be the focus on offense for Baltimore and for the most part he has carried the load.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

except you CAN predict greater wear and tear on a running QB vs a pocket QB

.

decent little read.......i don't think lamar has the passing skills to continue to be a top level QB as his rushing skills diminish.......and he accounted for such a large portion of the Ravens rushing offense, there's a really good chance his runs fall off just like virtually every other modern RB does......you simply cannot sustain a long career as a rusher in the NFL these days, and he doesn't have the pocket skills to make the transition to a pass first QB who can use his legs

Link didn't show up but to date there's 0 evidence QB who runs gets hurt more often. I hope it's actually useful and somewhat new. If not it's been read and probably doesn't mean what you think it does considering the rest of the post.

He's been a pass first QB since college. It's tough to take some of you seriously. At least come correct with what you're saying. He's one of the best passers inside the pocket. Enough with this garbage lol.

 

[Le Numéro Douze]

No, we can conclude Jim McMahon was a better than average passer for his era on low volume when he accumulated most of his wins, similar to Garoppolo now, and Steve Young had a better winning percentage than McMahon on incomparably more volume after he became the starter for the 49ers. "QBs with high career winning percentages generally are very good players, especially with high usage" doesn't equal "we should rank QBs solely by career winning percentage", that's an obvious strawman. Lamar has a great winning percentage on a high overall usage rate and the least cap space allocated to receivers since he came into the league. He's been asked to be the focus on offense for Baltimore and for the most part he has carried the load.

He's been asked to be the focus of the offense for Baltimore because he is a unique athlete. He still is an average, at best, passer. I would not invest a **** ton of money + give up prime assets to sign a gimmick QB who will be useless once his overwhelming physical advantages fade away... especially since he folded like a cheap time in nearly every playoff game he has ever played.

If he was free, sure. But for the salary he wants + the trade package we would have to send the Ravens? Hard pass. That's probably the calculation most teams are making.

 

[Grogan14]

lamar is a much better passer but facts don't interest the mac excuser/lamar

proven franchise former map qb's in their prime do not come along every day. It is mind bending how so many on this board are not interested and are willing to believe that maybe just maybe, jones or Zappe might become a good qb.
Jackson is outstanding. I know Bill understands this as well, because he has been very complementary of him.

Let's revisit at the end of this season when LJ is in conference championship with some team.

 

[patfanken]

Hey, I have an idea. Let's have a 50 page discussion on basis of a media driven premise that is NEVER EVER going to happen.

Of the other 31 teams in the NFL the Pats would be in the bottom quartile of the group in having interest in acquiring Lamar Jackson. It just makes no sense at this time and is just a talking point to create content so they can fill segment time.

Granted it's an interesting topic filled with discussions of stats vs performance, vs systems vs MVP's, vs availability, vs accuracy, vs surrounding talent vs playoff wins....and losses. We can be outrageous, and verbose, and angry and defiant, and the latest craze.here ....mean. Meanwhile we likely have about another 30 or 40 players to add, which kind of makes any speculation about what kind of team we will have kind of moot at this point.

OK, now that I've had my say just 10 pages in, I'll leave you to your rants on the very polarizing Mr. Jackson to carry on even though there won't be a single NEW take left to be had, just rehashes of things that were likely said before this thread SHOULD have ended about 5 pages ago. The fact remains that Jackson will likely go back to the Ravens on the Franchise tag or a 2-3 year short term deal with a lot if not all guaranteed. With the understanding that every now and then, when the NFL or ESPN needs some media time, he will be linked to still ANOTHER team.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

especially since he folded like a cheap time in nearly every playoff game he has ever played.

His first playoff game he had started less than 10 total games! Gus Bradley is still cashing checks off that game and half the league took notice. He was just prepared to the max and his guys executed perfectly. Balty's OL gave up like 20 pressures and the RB ran for 2.5 per carry.

First Titans game showed a big time lack of preparation for Balty. Few big drops, penalties, lack of execution. They showed up casually and played casually. No fire or real plan B.

First playoff Win against Tennessee. Complete opposite of what you saw the first two times.

He was pressured about 50% of the time against Buffalo. Two missed FG.

One common theme is that his supporting cast either doesn't show up or is hit or miss during big games. Defense has been good but ST has been hit or miss too.

Not exactly a recipe for success when you factor in the lack of coaching adjustments.

Context helps although it's lost on some people who just don't like him.

 

[RodThePat]

He's been asked to be the focus of the offense for Baltimore because he is a unique athlete. He still is an average, at best, passer. I would not invest a **** ton of money + give up prime assets to sign a gimmick QB who will be useless once his overwhelming physical advantages fade away... especially since he folded like a cheap time in nearly every playoff game he has ever played.

If he was free, sure. But for the salary he wants + the trade package we would have to send the Ravens? Hard pass. That's probably the calculation most teams are making.

He's neither an average at best passer nor a "gimmick" player, but it's funny how this board talks up Mac's 2021 when Lamar from 2020-2022 (i.e., not including his unanimous MVP season) has the same ANY/A, a higher combined QBR and passer rating than Mac did as a rookie and he adds 65 rushing yards per game on 6.3 yards a pop on top of that. I don't know, 2021 Mac Jones as a passer while being the most dynamic rushing threat in football sounds pretty good to me. And that's arguably the floor. Once again, health is the only issue here.

 

[Wozzy]

200 times?? Who's that? Lamar hasn't had less than 326 pass attempts since becoming the starter. You're the one misleading here.

Did you ever think Lamar's pass attempts are down because 1) his receivers suck and 2) he's a phenomenal runner who has several designed runs per game.

Look at the more relevant numbers here which are combined yards (passing & rushing) and combined TD's per game.

Lamar Jackson Combined Passing & Rushing Yards Per Game

2019 = 289
2020 = 251
2021 = 304
2022 = 251

Lamar Jackson Combined Passing & Rushing TDs Per Game

2019 = 2.9
2020 = 2.2
2021 = 1.5
2022 = 1.7

Just for reference...

Aaron Rodgers Combined Passing & Rushing Yards Per Game

2019 = 262
2020 = 278
2021 = 264
2022 = 223

Aaron Rodgers Combined Passing & Rushing TDs Per Game

2019 = 1.7
2020 = 3.2
2021 = 2.5
2022 = 1.6

Of the 8 categories Lamar came out ahead of Rodgers in 5 (63%). Tell me now how Rodgers, who won 2 NFL MVPs in that timeframe, is a bum.

And Just because...

Mac Jones Combined Passing & Rushing Yards Per Game

2021 = 231
2022 = 221

Mac Jones Combined Passing & Rushing TDs Per Game

2021 = 1.3
2022 = 1.0

Ouch!

Lamar’s career high passing attempts came in 2019, that season he ranked 26th in the NFL in pass attempts.

I don’t care about rushing because that doesn’t help them in the playoffs. In the playoffs, defenses force him to pass from the pocket and he can’t.

Passing is the job.

I’ve said this ^ multiple times now. And again, it’s funny how you keep reverting back to comparing Lamar to Mac, a young developing QB on a rebuilding team, instead of comparing him to his peers who he wants to be paid like… the best in the league.