Idle thoughts - the rush job.

2020 Patriots Season:
Upcoming Opponent:
Next Up: N/A

Current Patriots Twitter Feed:
Status
Not open for further replies.

patfanken

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
I was originally going to just add a few thoughts to the post game thread and not bother tonight, but it just got longer, and longer and longer until I finally said, WTF and threw it together with a few MORE thoughts. Not going to bother organizing it, so this will truly be an IDLE thoughts post.

1. The QB threw for over 350 yds, 3 TD's and had a 66% completion rate. He also threw to 9 different receivers despite losing his #3 WR early to injury. He also created 4 of the 5 sacks because he either held on to the ball too long or failed to side step rushers who should have been easily side stepped. The good news is Brady was pretty good, but isn't in close to being the best we are going to see him this season. AND with Izzo's TD the number of receivers who have caught TD's from Tom Brady has grown to 72. (andbetween Lacosse, Harry, Meyers, and Michel, that number could go as high as 76 this season. Think about THAT one for a while

2. Edelman had 115 yds receiving today on 8 of 9 targets and will never be mentioned this week as a top receiver, just as one "important" to Tom. Gordon improved, and looks like a beast to bring down, and was wide open for a long TD, but...... And the rest of WR's did enough to put up ANOTHER 130 odd yds. There were a few big drops, so clearly room for improvement, which will be needed in a month.

3. In the first half the offense was the very definition of self destruction. Penalites, drops, missed receivers and some just plain bad calls stalled almost every drive. Hard to score when you have TWO 2nd and 20's in one drive get one and get another in the next. Hard to recover from those.

4. HORRIBLE call on 4th down. Call made no sense. It was one of those calls that if another team had done it, we would have made fun of the coach and the call.

5. This his an historically good defense so far, though the competition hasn't been what you would call rigorous except for the Steelers, but this was BY FAR the worst tackling game of the season for the Pats, especially the Secondary. About the ONLY saving grace I can think of for allowing that 64 yd run is to take solace that we can always blame Jordan Richards for it. ;) Unfortunately Bill isn't going to be as forgiving to the real culprits when he puts up THAT play on Monday Morning Nightmares.

6. And if we need something else to complain about we can add the 3 catches and 51 yds that Gilmore gave up to a goddamned rookie. How soon can we get a thread up wondering what's happening to him. Was this the tip of the iceberge? Is he looking for a raise? I bet he hates Steve Bellichick. Good thing I know Volin will get behind all the secrecy and let me know the "facts". :rolleyes:

7. This is actually a REAL observation - This front is NOT going to get many sacks just rushing 4 guys up the field. They are clearly not built that way and haven't been for 20 years They had 6 sacks today and many more serious pressures, and I'd bet that the great majority of them came on twists, replacement stunts, and a few overloads.

BTW- I read last week where the Pats were among the defenses that blitzed the most in the league, over 32% over the first 4 weeks. Today, my guess was, not so much. Though Collins got thru almost untouched on 2 that I saw.

The point is that people should realize that for THIS team and pretty much every Pats for the last 20 years, the rush needs to be schemed for the rush to be effective. Every one who may get a sack knows, it was because of the efforts of the entire front to get them. For example Winovich got his on a twist stunt with the DT who made a beautiful hard inside out rush which created a great lane for Wino to come up inside almost untouched. Shelton had a great inside rush, but he doesn't make the sack without KVN's great outside rush that forced McCoy up inside, etc Think back to the best defensive teams of first decade and they all had one thing in common. They were in the top 5 in sacks, but never had a double digit sacker. (IIRC Vrabel had 10 in 2007 to prove the rule.)

The reason for this mini rant, I guess, is in reaction to Collins' mini sack dance after he got in untouched on a blitz. I'd rather him emulate KVN's celebration which is a LOT more inclusive and recognizes the efforts of ALL the other guys who had a hand in this great play, rather than implying he's happy "getting fed" Not saying Jaime isn't appreciative of his teammates and understands what it takes to create a sack, but all accounts he's a great teammate. It's just that on the surface it seems a bit selfish. Pardon my overreaction, but....... Sacks should be TEAM celebrations.

8. I'm hoping "danny dimes" (no caps yet) poses more of a threat to the Pats Defense, just so we can get a truer sense of what this defense actually is. Hard to think that it really is THIS good. I mean we'd all be thrilled if the defense ONLY allowed 17-20 points a game right? This group have allowed just 2 TD's in FIVE games. They allowed just 7 points today and their per game average went UP. :eek: Stew on that one for a while.

9. Special teams were pretty good overall. No KO returns, very little in the way of punt returns (9yds) and good ones from Gunner (3 for 49 yds, which included another 20 yder that got called back) and Nuggent who only missed one of 6 kicks which was of course an extra point. No less on his first kick as a Patriot. Did you really expect anything else? Got to complain about something? ;)

10 Forgot to mention the OL - I'm betting when Bedard grades the OL I'm thinking the 4 sacks and other pressures won't seem as bad as it did on the screen. A good number is usually under 30% total pressures. IIRC the Pats had been around 22% so far. Pretty sure it will be higher this week, but not horrid (in the 40-50% range).

That's not bad for an OL with a new starting C and a LT 3 days off the bus before he was thrust in a game. I think it will get better because they really need the continuity. Don't underestimate or think it cliche. It's an important aspect to all OL's and one only time will cure.

I'm thinking the numbers will be higher after this game, but not much. Cannon didn't have his finest hour, but Kerrigan and Ionidis are pretty good. Karras gave up the Payne sack but IIRC that was a bit on Brady as well. I really thought it was one that could have been avoided and instead he just "took it like a man". Maybe I'll think differently when I see it up close and over and over again.

But what initially depressed me, and then elated me was this. In the first half the few times we actually ran it, it looked like just more of the same. Then after their first bad drive of the 3rd, they started, not only to put together some strong runs, but to actually create DESIGNED holes that gave Sony a chance to make a move in a hole, and the results showed....and big time. Not as good as I liked when they needed a running first down to close out the game, but still better. Even saw a few good Izzo blocks.

11. Still waiting for a reason how that penalty on Izzo could have been called. Then again, the one on Edelman was equally as bad. One was key in keeping us out of the endzone and the other.....well we managed to do that on our own. ;) Still seemed like too many calls. I'd be interested in finding out just what the Washington OL was complaining about? I saw a couple of holds on both OL's that I thought were pretty tame and could have been let go.

BTW- Hightower, I think, had a great face mask to face mask hit with receiver on a screen that de-cleated the guy. It brought a great warmth to my heart that I thought had been long legislated out by the league. Still I couldn't help wonder where was the flag. It was, strictly speaking a "helmet to helmet" hit, wasn't it?

I'd like to think that it was just TOO beautiful to flag and to do so would be an abuse of the very nature of the game. THAT was the kind game I played or at least tried to play. To do that was the goal of every player EVERY play. What a feeling. What a game by him overall. So nice to see him so impactful this early in the season.

Last time I remember seeing one that good was back when High was a rookie and Vince put his face into a QB's chest and planted him on his back. It was in the endzone IIRC. Of course, Vince was summarily flagged on the play, and my head exploded and my mind hasn't been the same since.

12. Not to say anything good about a guy who is clearly going to be coaching with his brother as soon as this year, but....I appreciated the fact that with close to two minutes left to go and 2 TO's, he chose NOT to try and score a meaningless TD against a prevent D and use the full 8 or nine plays he could have rung out of it, and instead ran 3 running plays to kill the clock and get everyone off the field as healthy as possible.

It might not mean much to some, but I thought it was a class move and worthy of mention. I can't imaging working in that organization for a year, let alone 5. They have a moron "president of operations" making bad move after bad move with an idiot owner who is even a BIGGER moron than he is. Going into this season Washington had a chance to be a competitive team in the NFCE. A good defense that would be complimented by an offense that would run it and not turn it over. Injuries and incompetence now puts this team in the Dolphin' realm of "wait til next year" teams, only they don't have a boat load of draft picks or cap space. Fed Ex must be the safest place in the league for an away crowd. It's a team that needs a league intervention, seriously.

12. A few league thoughts

a. I picked the Cowboys in my pool, and here's what I learned. Never underestimate by how much a good coach can out coach Jason Garret. GB went in there after losing a bad game and WITHOUT their top WR and crushed them. 21 at HOME garbage points made it look respectable.. Now 3-1 so far this week and need JG to guide me to a good 4-1 week.

b. Just saw the score of the Colt game. Now I wish I watched at least some of it. I can't wait to see how the Colts defended the Chiefs and held them to 10 points. That will be a good lesson to learn. Think Bill might want that all-22. ;) If the Bills and Colts are any indications, it looks like good defenses, at least, CAN hold down good offenses this year.

c. Need to remember that last season we were still 3-2 at this point and no one knew which way the direction arrow was pointing. In fact it was after the Pittsburgh game in DECEMBER, which included the loss of the game AND the loss of Gordon, when the "fork" was officially stuck in the Pats as a super bowl contender by the "smart money". With 11 games to go, there is a LONG way to be the best team we can be. It will require relatively good health, the development of good depth for when its needed, and several good bounces along the way for another Championship to happen. You only need ONE bad game in the playoffs to ruin what was a great REGULAR season.

I don't think some people realize just how HARD it is to win a title in the NFL. You can't have a single slip in a one and done format and EVERY team is capable to beat you on a given day. We know that only too well from our own storied losses (2007, 2010, 2011, 2015, and 2017) Games that all COULD have be won with a good break or call that never happened. It's what makes the 6 wins so remarkable. Hell, just being good enough to have that many heartbreaking losses is a tremendous accomplishment if you honestly think about it. In the end, we have LONG long way to go, but you have to admit that doesn't suck to be a Pats fan. ;)

d. Sean McVay doesn't seem as smart as he used to. Now we get to see him do it in some adversity before we start carving his Canton bust. Zoe pointed out that teams have figured out how to defeat his little trick of guiding Goff through the presnap maze. Now teams are making all their moves with 15 seconds on the clock and the light hasn't turned on for the kid since he's never had to read the "book" before on his own, and now he can't.....yet.

Also the last 2 teams I've of any Rams games that were slowing them down, they were using a 6-1 look that was unsurprisingly familiar to those of us who enjoyed the Superbowl defense so much. ;) BTW- was that a strict BB design or was it something they got from Patricia who had some success with the Rams that year. Just curious if anyone remembers

e. One last thought. Watching Jake Bailey the last month, it wasn't hard to see the significant difference between him and Ryan Allen, who was a good punter here for several years. BOOMERS upon boomers almost without exception. I'm thinking we got the probowl Punter right on our own team. But a funny thing happened as I watch the other teams' punters work as well as a few others across the league. There seems to be a number of punters now in the league who are regularly kickng the ball well over 50 yds with 5-6 second hang times.

So I'm wondering if its something more than just stronger legs. Is there a technique or some skill advantage they have over their older counterparts. All I know is that SOMETHING seems to be "in the water, that's cause this plethora of new punters that are just KILLING it to the point Ryan Allen is still unemployed.

And with this final quandary I will bid you all a good night. And suddenly I'm wondering just how rushed this actually was. ;)
 
Last edited:

NormZauchin

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
I also noticed that Gruden didn't try to stop the clock and instead just brought the game to a quick end. Wish more coaches would follow that example at the end of games which are out of reach.
Besides having to deal with incompetence at the top of the organization, Gruden hasn't had any luck. Last season, Washington was 6-3 and in first place in the NFC East when Alex Smith suffered that horrible broken leg against the Texans. It's been all downhill since then.
 

Batman

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
BTW- Hightower, I think, had a great face mask to face mask hit with receiver on a screen that de-cleated the guy. It brought a great warmth to my heart that I thought had been long legislated out by the league. Still I couldn't help wonder where was the flag. It was, strictly speaking a "helmet to helmet" hit, wasn't it?

I'd like to think that it was just TOO beautiful to flag and to do so would be an abuse of the very nature of the game. THAT was the kind game I played or at least tried to play. To do that was the goal of every player EVERY play. What a feeling. What a game by him overall.

Last time I remember seeing one that good was back when High was a rookie and Vince put his face into a QB's chest and planted him on his back. Of course, Vince was summarily flagged on the play, and my head exploded and my mind hasn't been the same since.


e. One last thought. Watching Jake Bailey the last month, it wasn't hard to see the significant difference between him and Ryan Allen, who was a good punter here for several years. BOOMERS upon boomers almost without exception. I'm thinking we got the probowl Punter right on our own team. But a funny thing happened as I watch the other teams' punters work as well as a few others across the league. There seems to be a number of punters now in the league who are regularly kickng the ball well over 50 yds with 5-6 second hang times.

So I'm wondering if its something more than just stronger legs. Is there a technique or some skill advantage they have over their older counterparts. All I know is that SOMETHING seems to be "in the water, that's cause this plethora of new punters that are just KILLING it to the point Ryan Allen is still unemployed.

And with this final quandary I will bid you all a good night. And suddenly I'm wondering just how rushed this actually was. ;)

I think it was Bentley on the RB with the face to face hit. I think it avoided a flag as he was a runner at the point and not defenceless. If he makes that hit above his face mask he gets a flag imo. It was beautiful though.

Punters are getting better Bailey probably isn’t the pro bowl punter. Jamie Gillan from the browns is out there crushing it too. Both are Rookies and displaced good NFL punters. I am not sure it technique or punters just being better athletes than they use to be.

I do miss Ryan Allen as a holder.
 

Flash

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Yeah, Gilmore hasn't been a lockdown CB like he was last year. Still a good CB, ofc, but there is room for improvement.
 

livinginthe past

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
I thought that the Patriots approached the 1st half as they would a preseason game - working almost exclusively on the passing game.

I think Brady and McD decided that Brady needs a lot of reps where he stands in the pocket and has a little bit of faith in the cobbled together O-line - I think the low point demonstrating this lack of faith was him coming off Gordon so early last week on the EZ pick - that was a panic play by Brady.

I think 'statue Brady' was a result of Brady making a real effort to stay calm and remain in the pocket - perhaps resulting in a slight over-compensation.

On the OL, the guy who concerns me most is Cannon - he's been a great RT for a long time, this year he has been consistently mediocre - I hope he gets it turned around.

Great to see Sony rack up some yards. Like many RB's he does need to establish a bit of a rhythm, today he looked sharp against an admittedly underwhelming run defence.

The D has been other-worldly. We'v all seen plenty average-to-poor offences churn out big yardage (and T.O.P) over the last 15 years - this year, the D is doing what they should do, and decimating them.

The missed tackle (and sleeping defenders) for the lone Redskins TD will provide a good teaching point to the unit.

I thought Brady made a long-past-due effort to get the TE's involved in the passing game - we do need that diversity because, outside of the Squirrel, we aren't beating coverage 1-1 that consistently.

We're onto the Giants and the greatest rookie QB to have ever played the game.
 

supafly

Eff you, Shula
PatsFans.com Supporter
2019 Weekly Picks Winner
Just a quick thought about the Rams. I don’t think their recent two losses have much to do with McVay and Goff getting slowed down. After all, they scored 40 last week, and 29 this week (with Greg the leg missing an XP and a FG in a game they lost by a point). If anything, their offense looks quite potent.

It’s their lack of defense that’s letting them down. I’ve noticed that Talib has looked slow and lost at times, so that aspect certainly isn’t helping the backend with poor CB play.
 

luuked

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
HORRIBLE call on 4th down. Call made no sense. It was one of those calls that if another team had done it, we would have made fun of the coach and the call.

You win some, you lose some. It was 4th and short and they used one of the 2 point plays they practiced in a week with a new kicker. I really don't have as much of a problem with this as some here. Especially because without the creative freedom to do unexpected things even when they fail you will not get other unconventional things that succeed.

If done in moderation this is fine. Also a sidenote, if you take the time to point out how bad that play call ended up I think it is only fair to also point to the Bolden/LB matchup on the wheel route McDaniels put together later on. It still required a great throw by Brady but that was all design and personnel.

Unfortunately Bill isn't going to be as forgiving to the real culprits when he puts up THAT play on Monday Morning Nightmares.

I actually love the fact that we rarely play a completely clean game on defense. The more tape there is to chew on the smaller the chance to become reckless. To keep improving you need things to chew on.

The point is that people should realize that for THIS team and pretty much every Pats for the last 20 years, the rush needs to be schemed for the rush to be effective.

I'd much rather my team doesn't rely purely on the athletic talent of one player to continuously disrupt (see Von Miller, Watt, Donald or Suh) because you can scheme them out of the game as BB has often done brilliantly. Moreover it also means you are not susceptible to that one piece that if injured has a domino effect on your efficiency. For us its next man up in the his role within the scheme.

Not as good as I liked when they needed a running first down to close out the game, but still better. Even saw a few good Izzo blocks.

It is coming along. As always a reminder to not judge the bad (and the good!!) too early in the season.

With 11 games to go, there is a LONG way to be the best team we can be. It will require relatively good health, the development of good depth for when its needed, and several good bounces along the way for another Championship to happen. You only need ONE bad game in the playoffs to ruin what was a great REGULAR season.

Bingo.
 

DarrylS

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
2019 Weekly Picks Winner
Hard to share any enthusiasm about the O Line, having to replace Andrews and after Wynn went down this current compliment does not seem to be playing that well... perhaps it is lack of time together or maybe it is lack of talent, hard to believe the latter. Thought Brady shares some responsibility as he seems more tentative than I can remember, he needs to become more reliable on Meyers to keep the D honest.

What concerns me this AM is that it is rumored that BB will not activate Ben Watson, who seems to believe that the combo of Izzo and LaCosse can somehow fill that job.. as a fan will always have soft spot for Watson as a man and as a kick ass player..

Wonder how difficult it is to play D in this current run??... Is it difficult to keep their "focus"??? A great front 7 rotation with many mix and match combinations, all of whom are noticeably noticeably contributing.. remember something like KVN has played in 77% of the D Snaps while Michael Bennett has played in 40%.. those are nice "problems" in this long war of attrition.

Now we go into the part of the season where 1:00 PM games will be a memory, 8 consecutive games later in the day.. 3 will be 8:20 PM starts...

These blowouts are fine, but would like to see an exciting game as well....
 

livinginthe past

2nd Team Getting Their First Start
What concerns me this AM is that it is rumored that BB will not activate Ben Watson, who seems to believe that the combo of Izzo and LaCosse can somehow fill that job.. as a fan will always have soft spot for Watson as a man and as a kick ass player..

That seems like a strange rumor.

If true though, i'd much rather Bill did what he felt best for the team than pander to the emotions of fickle fans.

Watson himself, is just a complementary offensive piece - he did well for Saints, but that offence (as it always seems to be) was loaded.

LaCosse and Izzo have been mediocre, but at least they, presumably, have ST value and potential upside - Watson does not have either.
 

SBLIII

In the Starting Line-Up
Yeah, Gilmore hasn't been a lockdown CB like he was last year. Still a good CB, ofc, but there is room for improvement.
Bingo.

He hasn't looked good against Brown and McLaurin, a journeyman and a rookie. Definitely a concern.

We need Gilmore to be as good as 2018 in the big games down the stretch and playoffs.
 

Pat the Pats Fan

Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
Thanks for the summary of players to catch a Brady TD. I thought, how many does that make after the izzo catch...
 

ChessToCheckers

Third String But Playing on Special Teams
This Defense is great fun to watch! The flexibility, depth, discipline, and selflessness is a thing of beauty!

I really wouldn't want to face them if I'm an opposing QB!
 

betterthanthealternative

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
Gilmore looks like a guy who is so confident that he's losing concentration at times. I'm not worried that he'll pick it back up again when the opposition shows up with a true #1 receiver, or a strong overall passing game.

And, as has been said, in three days they play against the greatest rookie QB in history, so that should provide some motivation.
 

SBLIII

In the Starting Line-Up
Gilmore looks like a guy who is so confident that he's losing concentration at times. I'm not worried that he'll pick it back up again when the opposition shows up with a true #1 receiver, or a strong overall passing game.

And, as has been said, in three days they play against the greatest rookie QB in history, so that should provide some motivation.

probably true.

Our preseason is 11 weeks long.
 

woolster22

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
2019 Weekly Picks Winner
McLaurin has been putting on a show for the skins all year. Rookie or not, hes talented.

The colts game was destroyed by defensive holding and pass interference flags. Colts LG is an absolute monster (makes mankins look pedestrian). I'd love to watch he and Shelton square off but i don't think we will like the result. One play TY gets called for a pick. Replay shows it within 1 yard, and the only contact was when the db reached out to grab him. Play was challenged. Call stood. Nobody in the booth could understand wtf the crew was doing.

On top of the over abundance of flags, Mahomie got cleated and hobbled, that lg of the colts single handedly got them 4 yards any time they went behind him, and there were a bunch of turn overs approaching the red zone for both teams.

As an aside, something needs to be done about the refs in the nfl. They suck. It gets worse every damn year. One play last night, 3rd and two for the chiefs i wanna say about plus 40. Low pass to kelce who made a sliding attempt, hands under to basket it. Ball hits ground/hands and bounces up, colts snag it and take off. Crew lets it play like an int, player gets blasted on the sideline to draw a 15 yd flag going out of bounds (10 years ago it was iffy, so an obvious penalty now). The play gets reviewed and its ruled incomplete. Here's my problem, the 15 yard penalty was still enforced. This isn't all on the chiefs. If the flippin zebras got it right in the first place, there never would have been an opportunity for an offensive player to draw a flag trying to do something he doesn't regularly do in the course of a game.
So now instead of a 4 and 2 on the plus 50 (in the 4th i believe as well, it was about time to start taking risks), that they likely go for, its 4th and 17 because personal foul for a play that technically never happened.
There has to be a better way to enforce that. You can't let safety violations go unflagged, but say there was flag on the defense for holding during the return that wasn't, would the chiefs get the penalty yardage? Could you "save" the personal foul penalties and the like, if they happen during/after a negated portion of play, and maybe apply them at possession change? Seems overcomplicated, but better than the current policy of hammering teams for reacting to proven, "clear and obvious" mistakes of officials in the course of a game. Nfl would like it as it would likely increase scoring by extending the few drives saved by replay in these instances, as well as giving the other team 15 yards in field position when they gain possession.

Edit:
Same kind of penalty situation and replay in the cowboys game. Catch made on sideline but ruled incomplete, Garret barks at official and spikes the red flag down. Unsportsmanlike penalty applied and the call overturned, 1st and 25 cowboys. The pi/defensive holding **** is such an issue because the NFL can't figure out what the hell they are looking at. Crews are vastly different game to game, team to team. How the hell can anyone expect NY to get it right all at once?
 
Last edited:

borg

PatsFans.com Supporter
PatsFans.com Supporter
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
I haven’t read anything that long since college.
PFK pulling an all nighter.....for a Skins game.
Are you nuts??? :)
Great job

My conspiracy theory
Coming into the game, the Skins run D was wretched....so what does Josh do.... pass pass pass. My theory, get the newbie TEs and the depleted WR Corp some early work. I do believe the early Dorsett injury disrupted the passing game mojo in the first half.
Am I wrong to feel our young disrespected TEs always seem wide open?
In the 2nd half, the coaches decided it was time to win the game so they ran it down their throats like every other team has this year.

The NE defense is making it look so easy... but let’s not discount the miserable offenses they have played.
NE has played the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 12th worst offenses in the league after 5 games.

I also want to point out that this message board savant owns the NE defense on every one of my fantasy teams.... all drafted in August. Bill has poured massive team resources into his D and we have been rewarded with stellar play.

Love when NE plays Thursday night games. Undisciplined poorly coached teams shoot themselves in the foot on Thursday night.

Lay up
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top