How Good Does Mac Have To Be To Get His Option Picked Up?

[Actual Pats Fan]

Is this your opinion, or do you have something factual o back it up?

It's fascinating how Belichick understood and appreciates Bill Russell's greatness and success, and at the same time missed how Auerbach treated Russell ENTIRELY differently from any of the other players. Tom should have been allowed to have as many crazy personal trainers on the game sideline and as many quirky uncommon habits as he wanted, especially after personally carrying the team to three more Super Bowl titles (Four if you count the Eagles debacle).

 

[Ring 6]

Deshaun Watson led the entire NFL in total offense and passing in 2020, his team won 4 games... it wasn't because he wasn't "clutch" enough. That's nonsense...it was because his defense was ranked 30th in points per drive allowed and dead last in forced turnovers.... they were the worst defense in the league.

Drew Brees led the NFL in passing three years in a row, he won 7 games three years in a row. It wasn't because he wasn't "clutch" enough, it was because his defense was ranked 31st in points allowed in 2014, 32nd in 2015 and 32nd in 2016... they were the worst defense in the league.

Having the best or top three QB in the league is worth single digit wins... that's how important a great QB is in relation to having a great team. QB's can't make a terrible defense good, that's fan nonsense.

You're attributing team success to one player, it's easily the worst take in pro football.

So you are taking my side now that stats are pretty meaningless?
you realize that all those yards you are crowing about were largely because they were okaying from behind and their style of play didn’t help the defense right?
But yeah, passing yards accumulation is what football is all about.

 

[Ring 6]

DJ was very effective as a runner in 2022. If he keeps it up then it will continue to be a big part of their offense. DJ has shown a much higher ceiling than MJ in single game passing. DJ has also produced a game-winning drive in 38% of his wins (8 of 21). MJ has a game-winning drive in only 6% of his wins (1 of 16). MJ's complete lack of any signature moment(s) to start his career is a red flag alert.

You think it’s better to play 58 minutes to where you need a comeback drive to pull it out (and get it 38% if the time) than to be playing from ahead and not needing to comeback?

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

You think it’s better to play 58 minutes to where you need a comeback drive to pull it out (and get it 38% if the time) than to be playing from ahead and not needing to comeback?

Variables in any game are many, including how a player and team are playing that day, intangibles, weather, etc.

The consistently good teams are called upon to respond all the time, including against inferior opponents who have the lead late in a game. Or superior opponents. The bottom line is the game result. Not individual or team stats.

 

[Ivan]

It's fascinating how Belichick understood and appreciates Bill Russell's greatness and success, and at the same time missed how Auerbach treated Russell ENTIRELY differently from any of the other players. Tom should have been allowed to have as many crazy personal trainers on the game sideline and as many quirky uncommon habits as he wanted, especially after personally carrying the team to three more Super Bowl titles (Four if you count the Eagles debacle).

I agree that Belichick could have treated Brady better, but the trainer question is a little more complicated. I don’t think Belichick had much of a problem with Brady having his personal trainer, but it became an issue when Brady started pushing his regimen on other players( e.g…Edelman).

 

[Ring 6]

Variables in any game are many, including how a player and team are playing that day, intangibles, weather, etc.

The consistently good teams are called upon to respond all the time, including against inferior opponents who have the lead late in a game. Or superior opponents. The bottom line is the game result. Not individual or team stats.

Exactly. And often gaudy stats are accumulated while losing which has no true value.

 

[Wozzy]

So you be are taking my side now that stats are pretty meaningless?
you realize that all those yards you are crowing about were largely because they were okaying from behind and their style of play didn’t help the defense right?
But yeah, passing yards accumulation is what football is all about.

Stats aren't meaningless, and I didn't say anything insinuating that.

Deshaun Watson got the most money in NFL guaranteed for a reason. He won a college championship, he's been voted to three Pro Bowls... you're not fooling anyone. You can't fake how good he's been.

 

[Wozzy]

Exactly. And often gaudy stats are accumulated while losing which has no true value.

Drew Brees led the entire NFL in passing yards in 2016, he was 3rd in TD's. The Saint's offense was ranked #2 in the entire NFL in scoring.

Brees ranked 5th among all QB's in the NFL in game winning drives with four... he was one of the most "clutch" QB's in football.

His defense was ranked 32nd in points per drive allowed. His team won 7 games total... so four of his seven victories were a direct result of Brees being "clutch."

His team lost because his defense was ranked dead last... period.

That you believe he needed to play better is absurd... just daft.

 

[rochrist]

BB got to 9 Super Bowls in 18 seasons with Brady. Yet BB has got to 0 Super Bowls in 10 seasons without Brady. BB also won 1 playoff game in those 10 seasons. Payton had Brees for 15 seasons in New Orleans... 9 playoff seasons, 3 NFCCG appearances, and 1 Super Bowl title. Mora, Dungy (HOF), and Caldwell had Manning for 13 seasons in Indianapolis... 11 playoff seasons, 3 AFCCG appearances, and 1 Super Bowl title.

Is the difference in QB play between Brees/Manning and Brady really worth multiple Super Bowls? Well, yes, obviously.

Yep. Belichick didn't have a thing to do with it.

Oh, BTW, I guarantee you that he would have gotten to more than one SB with Brees.

 

[crawhammer]

Oh, BTW, I guarantee you that he would have gotten to more than one SB with Brees.

Guarantee? You're basing that on what? Look, I like Drew Brees, I probably rank him higher all-time than most, but he was a starting quarterback in the NFL for 19 seasons and he made it to 1 Super Bowl. Belichick has been the head coach of a team without Brady at quarterback in 10 seasons and he can't even win a division let alone a Super Bowl. Neither Brees nor Belichick are dragging their teams to multiple Super Bowls, in fact, 1 SB in 29 seasons (3% of the time).

There really is no indication a Belichick/Brees combination would have done anything at all. Payton/Brees worked somewhat (especially for the passing game) because Brees had enough talent, Payton always surrounded him with qualify skill position players, and they were like-minded in their aggressive approach. I don't see Belichick/Brees being nearly as prolific together as Payton/Brees. The Saints had some bad defenses, including 2009 when they won the Super Bowl, but they had some reasonably good defenses as well. They had an excellent defense in 2020, except they ran into Brady in the playoffs, and Brees arm had died on him during the season.

 

[crawhammer]

You think it’s better to play 58 minutes to where you need a comeback drive to pull it out (and get it 38% if the time) than to be playing from ahead and not needing to comeback?

I think it's better to at least show the capability of completing a comeback or game-winning drive when given the opportunity. Checkmark for DJ, he's done it. MJ has gotten it done once against a 3-win Texans team in October. Mac is 4-8 in December/January. One of those 4 wins is the wind storm game in Buffalo when he completed 2 passes. A second is the 40-point blowout of the 3-14 Jaguars. The third against Kyler Murray who blew out his knee after completing 1 pass (and a 4-win Cardinals team). The fourth against a combination of Skylar Thompson and Teddy Bridgewater. Mac is not winning competitive games in December or January and he's not leading game-winning drives ever. These are major concerns (for a supposed franchise quarterback).

 

[rochrist]

Guarantee? You're basing that on what? Look, I like Drew Brees, I probably rank him higher all-time than most, but he was a starting quarterback in the NFL for 19 seasons and he made it to 1 Super Bowl. Belichick has been the head coach of a team without Brady at quarterback in 10 seasons and he can't even win a division let alone a Super Bowl. Neither Brees nor Belichick are dragging their teams to multiple Super Bowls, in fact, 1 SB in 29 seasons (3% of the time).

There really is no indication a Belichick/Brees combination would have done anything at all. Payton/Brees worked somewhat (especially for the passing game) because Brees had enough talent, Payton always surrounded him with qualify skill position players, and they were like-minded in their aggressive approach. I don't see Belichick/Brees being nearly as prolific together as Payton/Brees. The Saints had some bad defenses, including 2009 when they won the Super Bowl, but they had some reasonably good defenses as well. They had an excellent defense in 2020, except they ran into Brady in the playoffs, and Brees arm had died on him during the season.

WHo did Belichick have as QB in those years? The broken down corpse of Vinne Testaverde? He still kicked Bill Parcels' ass.

You're an idiot.

 

[crawhammer]

WHo did Belichick have as QB in those years? The broken down corpse of Vinne Testaverde?

1991 Browns: Bernie Kosar, age 28 (1st round draft pick)
1992 Browns: Bernie Kosar, age 29 and Mike Tomczak, age 30
1993 Browns: Bernie Kosar, age 30 and Vinny Testaverde, age 30 (1st round draft pick)
1994 Browns: Vinny Testaverde, age 31
1995 Browns: Vinny Testaverde, age 32 (still not "broken down corpse" age)
2000 Patriots: Drew Bledsoe, age 28 (1st round draft pick)
2008 Patriots: Matt Cassel, age 26
2020 Patriots: Cam Newton, age 31 (1st round draft pick)
2021 Patriots: Mac Jones, age 23 (1st round draft pick)
2022 Patriots: Mac Jones, age 24

Look at that, in 9 of 10 seasons, Belichick had a 1st round quarterback (in fact 7 of 10 were 1st round, 1st overall). Exactly 0 of those quarterbacks were old. Including Testaverde who by the way Belichick wanted as his starting quarterback. Belichick chose to wait until there was absolutely no one left but Cam in 2020. Mac Jones is Bill's guy, he's riding out the rest of his career with Mac, took him in the 1st round, and started him right away.

Now call me an idiot, and tell me all of those quarterbacks suck, including Mac. Bill's the GM too, he picks his players including of course the quarterback. So however you choose to characterize any of these quarterbacks, Belichick had them on the roster, drafted them, or signed them. Division titles: 0-10 with that crew and 17-1 with Brady.

 

[Ring 6]

I think it's better to at least show the capability of completing a comeback or game-winning drive when given the opportunity. Checkmark for DJ, he's done it. MJ has gotten it done once against a 3-win Texans team in October. Mac is 4-8 in December/January. One of those 4 wins is the wind storm game in Buffalo when he completed 2 passes. A second is the 40-point blowout of the 3-14 Jaguars. The third against Kyler Murray who blew out his knee after completing 1 pass (and a 4-win Cardinals team). The fourth against a combination of Skylar Thompson and Teddy Bridgewater. Mac is not winning competitive games in December or January and he's not leading game-winning drives ever. These are major concerns (for a supposed franchise quarterback).

Got it, so you like QBs who fall behind, lose most of the time but once on a while they are part of a comeback. We disagree.

 

[Ring 6]

I think it's better to at least show the capability of completing a comeback or game-winning drive when given the opportunity. Checkmark for DJ, he's done it. MJ has gotten it done once against a 3-win Texans team in October. Mac is 4-8 in December/January. One of those 4 wins is the wind storm game in Buffalo when he completed 2 passes. A second is the 40-point blowout of the 3-14 Jaguars. The third against Kyler Murray who blew out his knee after completing 1 pass (and a 4-win Cardinals team). The fourth against a combination of Skylar Thompson and Teddy Bridgewater. Mac is not winning competitive games in December or January and he's not leading game-winning drives ever. These are major concerns (for a supposed franchise quarterback).

Let’s put real numbers to it.
Mac is his first 31 starts is 16-15, one win being come from behind
D jones was 9-22 with 2 wins being come from behind.

I will take the guy who wins 15 that he doesn’t put himself in position to have to come from behind and 1 when he does over the guy who put himself in the hole 24 out of 31 games and pulled out 2 of them.

But I’m sure Kyle Murray being injured negates all those facts, right?

 

[rochrist]

1991 Browns: Bernie Kosar, age 28 (1st round draft pick)
1992 Browns: Bernie Kosar, age 29 and Mike Tomczak, age 30
1993 Browns: Bernie Kosar, age 30 and Vinny Testaverde, age 30 (1st round draft pick)
1994 Browns: Vinny Testaverde, age 31
1995 Browns: Vinny Testaverde, age 32 (still not "broken down corpse" age)
2000 Patriots: Drew Bledsoe, age 28 (1st round draft pick)
2008 Patriots: Matt Cassel, age 26
2020 Patriots: Cam Newton, age 31 (1st round draft pick)
2021 Patriots: Mac Jones, age 23 (1st round draft pick)
2022 Patriots: Mac Jones, age 24

Look at that, in 9 of 10 seasons, Belichick had a 1st round quarterback (in fact 7 of 10 were 1st round, 1st overall). Exactly 0 of those quarterbacks were old. Including Testaverde who by the way Belichick wanted as his starting quarterback. Belichick chose to wait until there was absolutely no one left but Cam in 2020. Mac Jones is Bill's guy, he's riding out the rest of his career with Mac, took him in the 1st round, and started him right away.

Now call me an idiot, and tell me all of those quarterbacks suck, including Mac. Bill's the GM too, he picks his players including of course the quarterback. So however you choose to characterize any of these quarterbacks, Belichick had them on the roster, drafted them, or signed them. Division titles: 0-10 with that crew and 17-1 with Brady.

'1st round quarterback.' You truly ARE an idiot. And no, he did NOT draft the QBs in Cleveland. He inherited them. The same way he inherited Bledsoe.

 

[Ring 6]

'1st round quarterback.' You truly ARE an idiot. And no, he did NOT draft the QBs in Cleveland. He inherited them. The same way he inherited Bledsoe.

Vinny Testaverde was an NFL QB for 21 years and started more than half his teams games 13 years and made the playoffs 3 times. 1 of them was the 2 years belichick coached him another was when belichick was his DC and the team was 2nd in points allowed.
And by the way the comment “ 7 of 10 were first overall pick “ is a lie.

 

[Joker]

crawmope getting absolutely destroyed...oh the humanity

 

[Ring 6]

Stats aren't meaningless, and I didn't say anything insinuating that.

Deshaun Watson got the most money in NFL guaranteed for a reason. He won a college championship, he's been voted to three Pro Bowls... you're not fooling anyone. You can't fake how good he's been.

Stats absolutely are meaningless. Next time a team wins a game because their stats were better look me up

How many wins has his paycheck and privilege votes given his team?
Are you arguing he is good because you like his stats and if he never wins that doesn’t matter?

 

[Ring 6]

Drew Brees led the entire NFL in passing yards in 2016, he was 3rd in TD's. The Saint's offense was ranked #2 in the entire NFL in scoring.

Brees ranked 5th among all QB's in the NFL in game winning drives with four... he was one of the most "clutch" QB's in football.

His defense was ranked 32nd in points per drive allowed. His team won 7 games total... so four of his seven victories were a direct result of Brees being "clutch."

His team lost because his defense was ranked dead last... period.

That you believe he needed to play better is absurd... just daft.

How can you call a guy who played 20 years and won 9 playoff games (4 in 1 season 5 in the other 19) while losing 9, one of the most clutch QBs ever? By what yardstick?
If you think the job is to play well enough to lose a s blame someone else, I’m not sure what point there is having a discussion with you.