Have opinions of Phillip Dorsett changed?

[upstater1]

"All 5 of those guys would have come down with that ball." Every time? I don't think so, because it didn't actually happen. Every one of those guys failed to make a completion under similar circumstances more than once.

But, again, what - to you - makes that a "perfect throw"?

I can't remember their drops. I can remember their catches. With Dorsett, he's had several long throws to run under in the last couple of years, and he's failed to do it. He seems like he might become an excellent route runner for us, like Deion Branch for 20 yards. Not like Deion for 4o though.

A perfect throw is one in which the QB heaves it and the WR doesn't need to break stride at all or adjust much to catch it.

That was a bad job by Dorsett. Can't believe some people think otherwise.

 

[Angelpats]

Not under any standard other than one in which every single catch is a "hit in the hands."

He had to leave his feet. He had to go get the ball. It did not "hit him in the hands," he moved his hands and his whole body to go get the ball.

Now the throw was very good, Brady did a good job of finding the window and Dorsett didn't have to move very far, but I DARE you to try to say that Dorsett didn't have to make an adjustment to line up that catch. It is a complete denial of reality to suggest that the throw was right in Dorsett's hands. It simply didn't happen that way.

He could still have easily caught it. I honestly think he showed a good effort on the play. I think the defender did a good job of swatting the ball and I think Dorsett is still working on his timing with Brady and that played a role in why it wasn't a complete. But the ball did not "hit him in the hands."

Oh my goodness we are still on this. Ball hit him in his hands. He should have caught it, but he bobbled it then defender helped knock it out. It wasn’t an acrobatic one handed spinning 360 catch. It’s a catch an nfl receiver should catch. Easier passes have also been dropped, and harder passes have been caught. Glad he caught the td pass, make all the excuses you want but this easier pass we are talking about should have been caught.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

What a great bit of discussion this thread has generated.

 

[upstater1]

Are you really throwing deion branch into that list? I seem to recall no small number of rather serious drops by that man, especially his first time around in a New England uniform

Are you kidding? Deion was excellent. Hands like glue. 3rd quarter against the Eagles he made one of the most insane catches I've ever seen.

Go to 1:30 of this video and see him catch bombs without breaking side.

 

[TommyD4207]

Hit him in the hands. He should have caught it.

Bottom line is what you said. This.

It was a tougher catch that some people are making it out to be, but he's a professional WR, the ball hits you in the hands, you should catch it. Not rocket surgery here.

 

[supafly]

Not rocket surgery here.

I hate to be that guy, but what the hell is rocket surgery? Is this some sort of weird combination of rocket science and brain surgery?

 

[Deus Irae]

It was an almost perfect throw but in coverage that tight almost perfect is not good enough

Nonsense

You make a good argument, so facts, such wow....


...Dorsett still could have caught the ball

You just admitted I was correct.

 

[Kontradiction]

Not under any standard other than one in which every single catch is a "hit in the hands."

He had to leave his feet. He had to go get the ball. It did not "hit him in the hands," he moved his hands and his whole body to go get the ball.

Now the throw was very good, Brady did a good job of finding the window and Dorsett didn't have to move very far, but I DARE you to try to say that Dorsett didn't have to make an adjustment to line up that catch. It is a complete denial of reality to suggest that the throw was right in Dorsett's hands. It simply didn't happen that way.

He could still have easily caught it. I honestly think he showed a good effort on the play. I think the defender did a good job of swatting the ball and I think Dorsett is still working on his timing with Brady and that played a role in why it wasn't a complete. But the ball did not "hit him in the hands."

This is a lot of dancing around for a simple question. But I know why that is. The ball hit him in the hands. The quarterback’s job is to throw a ball that hits the receiver in the hands. The receiver’s job is to catch that ball. The quarterback did his job. The receiver did not. You’re trying to introduce unnecessary shades of grey to defend your pre-determined opinion when the matter is rather black and white. The ball hit Dorsett in the hands. He should have caught it.

 

[DarrylS]

If anything it shows the value of being in the Patriots Organization for 19 games now, often said how difficult it is for WR's to acclimate and learn this offensive philosophy, he may now be more of an asset than originally thought.. keep him in the event of an injury or if they want to get innovative with their offense.

Although I would prefer Jacoby Brisset as a back up to #12...

 

[goheels22002]

Dorsett's developmental curve with the Pats has been interesting.

From a "cold start" in the system, he caught only 4 of 8 tgts in the first 8 games of 2017, but with a ypc of 21.0. McD appeared to be trying to use him as an alternate deep threat to Cooks and Gronk.

In the second 8 games, after the BYE and Hogan's injury, McD seemed to use him more in the intermediate-range routes that Hogan had been running (in the absence of Edelman, Mitchell, and Bennett). Dorsett responded by catching 8 of 10 at a 13.6 ypc. He also caught 2 of 3 tgts for 50 yards (25.0 ypc) in the post-season.

This season (after finally getting his first OTAs and Camp), in the first four games, McD appears to have used Dorsett almost exclusively in short/intermediate routes (Edelman/Amendola range, 10.3 ypc). And Dorsett has responded with a 76% catch rate and two TDs.

So, in a season and a quarter, Dorsett has run most of the overall route porfolio and has been very successful in the ranges that the Pats typically attack most frequently. He's also been an excellent downfield blocker since at least the BYE in 2017. I just don't see him being demoted to 1-2 tgts/game (typical of a Pats #4WR) anytime soon.

For me, going forward with Edelman back and Gordon (presumably) developing, the "attack levels" personnel breaks out as follows:

Intermediate > Deep:
- Gronk
- Hogan (his most successful range, based on 2016/2017)
- Gordon (potentially)

Intermediate > Short:
- Edelman
- Dorsett
- Hollister

Short:
- White
- Patterson
- Michel (potentially)

This is great. Thanks.

The thing about Hogan and Dorsett is that they can both go deep if they have the right matchup. That's an in-game adjustment as much as anything. The Patriots are good at spotting mismatches or defensive alignments that allow them to expose weaknesses. Gronk and Hogan are great at seam routes against zones that don't hand off coverage well (Hello, Pittsburgh), and Dorsett has shown good dig-and-go double moves up the sideline in single coverage, or when the safeties cover Gronk over the top.

 

[maineman209]

I can't remember their drops. I can remember their catches. With Dorsett, he's had several long throws to run under in the last couple of years, and he's failed to do it. He seems like he might become an excellent route runner for us, like Deion Branch for 20 yards. Not like Deion for 4o though.

A perfect throw is one in which the QB heaves it and the WR doesn't need to break stride at all or adjust much to catch it.

That was a bad job by Dorsett. Can't believe some people think otherwise.

And there's the problem in a nutshell.

With past stars, we don't think of them as being mere mortals and don't remember their eff-ups.

With a recent or current player like Dorsett, ALL we remember is their eff-ups, which colors our perceptions of them. I'm saying "we" in this instance because I'm just as guilty as anyone.

In 2017, including post season, Dorsett caught 14 of 21 (67%). His 14 catches included a 38-yarder v. NOL in wk-2, a 39-yarder v. MIA in wk-12 and a 31-yarder v. JAX in the AFCCG. Although I don't recall the details, I'm sure that, among his 7 incompletions, a couple were on deep throws and the rest were on shorter throws. Whether those were all on him or one or two were on Brady, I don't recall, either. Still, regardless how many long(or short) incompletions were on Dorsett, a 67% catch rate with a 17.4 ypc is far, far from shi**y.

So far this season, in the absence of Jules and Danny, Dorsett has been used primarily on short-intermediate routes. He has a ypc of 10.3 on 16 catches out of 21 tgts. AFAIK, he's only been targeted on deep throws twice (less than 10%). One was the pick that Brady threw into double-coverage in Detroit; the other was the missed connection this past Sunday. So, 2 out of Dorsett's 5 "misses" have been on low-percentage deep throws

In spite of those, Dorsett still has gained 165 yards, has 2 TDs, and has a catch-rate over 76%.

And that leads me to what I really can't understand.

WTF is it about this one (maybe) "drop" on Sunday - in the context of his production so far - that makes Dorsett "not a good WR", but one who, instead, should be relegated to the relative invisibility of the #4 WR spot?

Can somebody - ANYBODY - give me a logical, rational explanation for that?

 

[maineman209]

This is a lot of dancing around for a simple question. But I know why that is. The ball hit him in the hands. The quarterback’s job is to throw a ball that hits the receiver in the hands. The receiver’s job is to catch that ball. The quarterback did his job. The receiver did not. You’re trying to introduce unnecessary shades of grey to defend your pre-determined opinion when the matter is rather black and white. The ball hit Dorsett in the hands. He should have caught it.

I'm not disagreeing that Dorsett should have caught that throw cleanly.

However, I disagree that the throw was of the 3-pointer/nothing-but-net variety. This throw was more of the "go get it" variety.

 

[Kontradiction]

I'm not disagreeing that Dorsett should have caught that throw cleanly.

However, I disagree that the throw was of the 3-pointer/nothing-but-net variety. This throw was more of the "go get it" variety.

Many throws downfield are. The bottom line is the ball hit Dorsett in the hands and he dropped it. Why this conversation has even been happening here is beyond me.

 

[PP2]

Dorsett is at this point (through 4 games), pretty much replicating the production of Amendola in 2017, both in reception and yards, and already has the same number of TDs. I'm happy with that.

This should go up with Edelman's return.

 

[n1997y]

...
And that leads me to what I really can't understand.

WTF is it about this one (maybe) "drop" on Sunday - in the context of his production so far - that makes Dorsett "not a good WR", but one who, instead, should be relegated to the relative invisibility of the #4 WR spot?

Can somebody - ANYBODY - give me a logical, rational explanation for that?

I think you've got it a little backwards. It's not that this drop convinces folks he's a #4 JAG WR. It's that they've already made up their minds he has a low ceiling and are flogging this deceased equine to validate their prejudice. Whether that's logical and rationale is an open question. It's just human nature.

 

[Simpelton]

I'm not disagreeing that Dorsett should have caught that throw cleanly.

However, I disagree that the throw was of the 3-pointer/nothing-but-net variety. This throw was more of the "go get it" variety.

Honestly would have made Dorsett's job easier if Brady had led him just a bit more so he could get some separation from the DB.

 

[Simpelton]

Many throws downfield are. The bottom line is the ball hit Dorsett in the hands and he dropped it. Why this conversation has even been happening here is beyond me.

You are still failing to connect the dots in your own argument. You just admitted Dorsett had to go get it and it didn't "hit him in the hands."

He still had every chance to make the play but this was not a gimme throw. Even an elite receiver, which we all agree Dorsett is not, might have had a little trouble with a bullet over the back shoulder with a defender right on top of him.

The only WR I can think of who would be automatic in that situation is Randy Moss. Not being Moss doesn't really impugn Dorsett very much

 

[maineman209]

Many throws downfield are. The bottom line is the ball hit Dorsett in the hands and he dropped it. Why this conversation has even been happening here is beyond me.

My only point is that a lot of folks seem to be characterizing the throw as "perfect", as is "Brady put it on his hands like it was a handoff".

In this case, Brady put it out there for Dorsett to find it, get separation, run under it, and put himself in a position to catch it cleanly. THOSE things, Dorsett did very well.

I'm not at all downplaying the fact that Dorsett failed on the most critical part of the play. I'm just pointing out that he still did a lot of things really well on the play.

 

[Kontradiction]

You are still failing to connect the dots in your own argument. You just admitted Dorsett had to go get it and it didn't "hit him in the hands."

What does that look like to you? I see a ball, I see a receiver, I see a set of hands, and I see the football in that set of hands. The ball hit him in the hands. When this event takes place, one of two outcomes are possible:

1. The receiver catches it.
2. The receiver drops it.

In this case, he dropped it. That's on Dorsett.

He still had every chance to make the play but this was not a gimme throw. Even an elite receiver, which we all agree Dorsett is not, might have had a little trouble with a bullet over the back shoulder with a defender right on top of him.

I invite you to watch that play again. Maybe make a .GIF of it so you can watch it over and over. Dorsett jumping was not necessary. He could have easily taken another step if he was better able to track the ball. Still, though, it hit him in the hands. He should have caught it. No matter how dark or light that shade of grey that you're trying to use is, that's a salient fact.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Dorsett is at this point (through 4 games), pretty much replicating the production of Amendola in 2017, both in reception and yards, and already has the same number of TDs. I'm happy with that.

This should go up with Edelman's return.

..or down. Even more if Flash becomes a Brady Binkie.

Depending on the year DA wasn't used all that much.