Gruden can't let go

[IllegalContact]

roughing the passer

 

[Off The Grid]

I am aware of that and that wasn't my point. My point is people focus on that singular play but ignore everything else that had to occur for NE to comeback and win. Hence the face guarding call. A lot of other things went wrong for NE to lose to the Colts some in NE's control some not.

Using your argument, the reality is that only the final play of any game would matter in a "this play cost them the game" sense. I think we usually give a bit more leeway than that.

My point is that focusing on the correct interpretation of a valid call is silly, because there was no change from what should have been. If the proper call is made, it ends up precisely where it was.

In the Colts game, the proper call means that it's not 1st and goal from the 1. You may want to talk about later plays, and you're right, but we're looking at 3rd and 7 from the 19, which means a likely field goal attempt, versus a likely TD (and the TD is what happened).

Can we prove, factually, that the call going the other way means the Patriots win? No. But, if you change that from a TD to a FG, Tom doesn't have to force a pass in hopes of getting a TD. He's able to play for the FG, because the game would have been tied.

Tom, from the Patriots 40, first and 10 with 31 seconds to go, with 1 timeout, and just needing to get into FG range? That's a win.

Exactly. The FaceGuarding "Penalty" essentially gave the Colts 4 points, which changed the dynamics of the game. When the Patriots subsequently scored to advance to 28-21, it should've been 28-17. That changes the dynamics of the contest considerably, and a choke artist like Manning would've pressed. Pressing leads to Picks.

That's just how it goes.

At the very least, instead of being down 38-34 for our last drive, and needing a TouchDown, we would've been tied up 34-34...if the Referees hadn't taken instructions from New York and screwed us to the wall.

Do you think that Brady ~ not forced to pass in order to get 7 points, but instead not being forced to do anything but take what the Defense gave'm ~ might've managed to cobble together another 30 yards and thus 3 points, thus essentially winning another Championship, as the Bears would've been easy meat?

Yeah.

So do I.

Like I said: the Refs gifted the Colts that Championship...at our expense.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Dude, stop it. 12 games ovr .500 or whatever the number is, is a ballpark .500 coach.

No one looked up the exact number, it's just that some of us think he's basically a .500 coach, capturing MOST of that with the 2002/2003 Buccaneers.

You have a math problem with your argument. .540 is not .500

So he had nothing to do with the Raiders renaissance ? It was all 75 year old Al Davis?

He's helped build absolutely nothing in the cap era.

Cap era started in 1994. Gruden took over the Raiders in 1997.

His issue is he gushes over every single player he sees. Didn't you hear him on MNF? He overrates every player.

You take his TV persona too seriously.

does not get cap concepts.

Prove this. Gruden inherited ****ty cap situations in OAK and TB and got them winning in a year or two after taking over (see 11-5 in TB 2006.)

Admit it. You don't like Gruden and that clouds your ability to objectively look at this body of work plus you don't do your homework.

 

[Wordsmyth]

Pound sand, Chucky.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

After winning the super bowl his first year in Tampa, what did Gruden do after that? Not much.

How many young qb’s did Gruden develop during his tenure as head coach anywhere?

He has a lot of good pieces in Oakland. I am guessing he thinks he can fix the offense. Who fixes that defense?

 

[RobertWeathers]

After winning the super bowl his first year in Tampa, what did Gruden do after that? Not much.

How many young qb’s did Gruden develop during his tenure as head coach anywhere?

He has a lot of good pieces in Oakland. I am guessing he thinks he can fix the offense. Who fixes that defense?

He had a bad cap and old players in TB and made them 11-5 with a **** QB

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Forget the fact that they blew two chances to put that game away, the second when he cowardly ran the ball 3 times.

They lost their last 3 games of the season, 2 to non-playoff teams. They could very easily be hosting that game if they took care of business, but they didn't.

It makes me very happy to know this still bothers him over a decade later. I hope it consumes him with rage and he loses his mind on every mundane call next time we play them.

So did Testaverde

 

[1960Pats]

The Raiders lost their last 3 freaking games of the season gifting the Pats homefield with just a 11-5 record. No one remembers that part but somehow if it weren't for the TucK Rule the Raiders would have been the sure Super Bowl champs. .

One of the teams the Faiders lost to was the Jets in the last game of the season. That was because one of my sons and I, along with a few thousand Pats fans, were chanting J-E-T-S Jets Jets Jets at the Pats game in Charlotte at the same time. It worked.

One other thing concerning Gruden and Oakland. In honor of our being robbed in 1976, I decided to put a 25 year curse on them in 2001. That means that Gruden will be in the 8th year of his contract (2026 if he makes it that far) before they can win.

As for the Tuckheads, the main culprit in starting that crybaby movement was Jim Nants. He was the fist person to use the term Tuck Rule when he whined after the game.

 

[1960Pats]

So did Testaverde

I can think of many examples including that one, but one of the best was a call that went against the Eagles vs Tony Romo and the Cowboys that resulted in the overturning of a fumble recovery and a TD by the Eagles. Nobody was crying about that one either.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

One of the teams the Faiders lost to was the Jets in the last game of the season. That was because one of my sons and I, along with a few thousand Pats fans, were chanting J-E-T-S Jets Jets Jets at the Pats game in Charlotte at the same time. It worked.

One other thing concerning Gruden and Oakland. In honor of our being robbed in 1976, I decided to put a 25 year curse on them in 2001. That means that Gruden will be in the 8th year of his contract (2026 if he makes it that far) before they can win.

As for the Tuckheads, the main culprit in starting that crybaby movement was Jim Nants. He was the fist person to use the term Tuck Rule when he whined after the game.

Yeah, the 2001 Raiders thought they were better than they were. They also choked at home to Baltimore the year before.

Gruden is a good coach, but his persona has people duped into thinking he is a great coach. The Cowheresque antics do remind me of Cowher. The chin thing and fist pumping does not mean you're a great coach.

The hype over this is fascinating.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

So did Testaverde

haha

Yeah, I laugh at fans wanting Goodell to openly cheat us some more, by literally changing rules during games. That's sort of the attitude, whether it be this year with Riveron upholding the catch rule correctly or when Goodell did cheat us TWICE in 2013 (Jets game and Carolina game with Gronk), the former where they actually changed the wording of the PAT/FG rule AFTER the game right in front of everyone. I believe the Tuck Rule was also called in a game with Carolina vs Minny that year as well.

I thought the rule was dumb, and total over-management, splitting hairs between what an attempted pass is, where it ends and what a fumble is, but that was the rule.

It's just so tiring when people run their mouths who don't know the rules.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

You have a math problem with your argument. .540 is not .500

So he had nothing to do with the Raiders renaissance ? It was all 75 year old Al Davis?



Cap era started in 1994. Gruden took over the Raiders in 1997.



You take his TV persona too seriously.



Prove this. Gruden inherited ****ty cap situations in OAK and TB and got them winning in a year or two after taking over (see 11-5 in TB 2006.)

Admit it. You don't like Gruden and that clouds your ability to objectively look at this body of work plus you don't do your homework.

I look at Gruden as a Cowher type. Cowher once lost 4 AFC title games at home for crying out loud, and you'd think he was the second coming. And, I STILL think he's better than Dungy and Cowher is not even in the HOF, so you tell me why the media does what they do.

Gruden absolutely did not inherit bad cap situations in Oakland or TB. He likes veterans with egos and big price tags. That's a problem in this day and age, and even WORSE today when you can really take adavantage of the rookie cap. What I see is guys with big egos who all stroke one another in draft rooms and during offseasons when they sign someone thinking they've split the atom, thinking they're closer to building a full team than they are. Think the NY Jets and their teambuilding approaches. I am not saying Gruden is that with the Raiders, but he's not far off. The whole league is like this because the owners are second generation silver spooned moron losers. Look at Mark Davis's haircut. Can you explain that phenomenon? No, I can't either.

Show me where Reggie Mckenzie has proven he gets it? Overpaying for Sean Smith, Lynch or someone like Bruce Irvin proves he gets it? What's changed? Mark Davis is as deluded as his father. It's not 1973 anymore.This is WELL known, which is why he ditched Oakland's awful roster situation, post 2001 (OLD ROSTER), and skipped town to a GREAT roster situation developed by Rich McKay, who had spent years doing it the right way, a way Gruden never understood with Al Davis.

You need a 5 year window, not a 2 year window in the cap era. So many teams in this league don't get that. Your odds a better with a bigger window. It's very simple.

You honestly think Al Davis, Dan Snyder, Jerry Jones, etc, understand salary cap concepts and teambuilding approaches the way BB does?

YOU need to prove this, not me.

The proof is in the pudding and you can't change history.

PS The Cap Era started in 1993. It didn't settle in and take effect until teams needed to worry about any bloated contracts that went past 1993, however. The expansion of Carolina/Jax is why those teams were strategically set up with free agency to help them get off the ground.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

it also was the correct rule. He is a coach and a coach should know the rules. 16 years later he is still operating on emotion mostly. "Brady fumbled that ball" His performance at the presser was pretty lame in my opinion.

It's more than lame. It's the equivalent of Marshall Faulk still whining about how he isn't aware why his team got punched in the mouth in SB 36, as to why they lost, tied to their incredible arrogance and entitled, with lack of respect to the Pats, after barely beating team in November due to an Antowain Smith fumble at the goal line before half.

Do you know how many complaints we could have in big games and feeling like we had calls go against us? I saw 3 holdings for example on the Tyree play. I saw Steve Smith pick Meriweather on that same drive. No call. We could do this all day.

 

[Chris Stevenson]

Exactly. The FaceGuarding "Penalty" essentially gave the Colts 4 points, which changed the dynamics of the game. When the Patriots subsequently scored to advance to 28-21, it should've been 28-17. That changes the dynamics of the contest considerably, and a choke artist like Manning would've pressed.

Pressing leads to Picks. That's just how it goes.

At the very least, instead of being down 38-34 for our last drive, and needing a TouchDown, we would've been tied up 34-34...if the Referees hadn't taken instructions from New York and screwed us to the wall.

Do you think that Brady ~ not forced to pass in order to get 7 points, but instead not being forced to do anything but take what the Defense gave'm ~ might've managed to cobble together 30 yards and 3 points, thus essentially winning another Championship, as the Bears would've been easy meat?

Yeah.

So do I.

Like I said: the Refs gifted the Colts that Championship...at our expense.

If I am not mistaken, the penalty gave them a first and goal from the 1, where they obviously got a TD out of it.

So, that was 7 points, not 4.

Remember the phantom PI call on Samuel with textbook inside coverage on Ashley Lelie in Denver in the divisional in January 2006? The ball landed like 5 yards behind the end zone, which makes it uncatchable, yet somehow Samuel interfered? And, then, the Ben Watson great play where the ball went over the pylon, which is a touchback, but they miraculously tried to lie to the NFL customer, and place at the 1 yard line, as if the ball went 90 degrees to the left to be spotted there? WTF? How do these incorrect calls, factually so, always happens to the Pats since 2006?

Note how all this all started with Goodell coming on board.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I look at Gruden as a Cowher type. Cowher once lost 4 AFC title games at home for crying out loud, and you'd think he was the second coming. And, I STILL think he's better than Dungy and Cowher is not even in the HOF, so you tell me why the media does what they do.

Dungy is overrated. Everyone knows that and there is no way in hell he should be in a HoF. Its absurd.

Cowher was a good coach. Cowher's problem was he worked for Mr. Choke Marty Scottenheimer too long and his teams were not as good as Dallas, Denver and New England. He a winner. I have no issue with him. You don't like him. Thats clear.

Gruden absolutely did not inherit bad cap situations in Oakland or TB. .

Yes he did. McKay is an idiot.

Bucs’ Salary Cap Hell Is Over

He likes veterans with egos and big price tags.

He likes veterans who produce and act like professionals.

That's a problem in this day and age, and even WORSE today when you can realy take adavantage of the rookie cap. Show me where Reggie Mckenzie has proven he gets it? Overpaying for Sean Smith, Lynch or someone like Bruce Irvin proves he gets it? What's changed? Mark Davis is as deluded as his father.

I'm not impressed with McKenzie. Hes a mixed bag.

It's not 1973 anymore.This is WELL known, which is why he ditched Oakland's awful roster situation, post 2001, and skipped town to a GREAT roster situation developed by Rich McKay, who had spent years doing it the right way, a way Gruden never understood with Al Davis.

Wrong. David got pissed off the team finished 10-6, lowballed Gruden on his new deal before the Snow Bowl. Gruden's agent got snippy with Davis (bad move) and Glazer called Al and said he wanted Gruden. Gruden said fine .

You honestly think Al Davis, Dan Snyder, Jerry Jones, etc, understand salary cap concepts and teambuilding approaches the way BB does?

YOU need to prove this, not me.

The proof is in the pudding and you can't change history.

What does BB and owners have to do with the discussion? This is about Gruden.

Your question about proving Gruden does which I did in the above. I never committed to proving owners do.

PS The Cap Era started in 1993. It didn't settle in and take effect until teams needed to worry about any bloated contracts that went past 1993, however. The expansion of Carolina/Jax is why those teams were strategically set up with free agency to help them get off the ground.

It was passed in 93 and implemented in 1994 $34.6m was the first cap #

 

[sb1]

To be fair, the tuck rule was pretty stupid.

I can see why it existed though
I'd rather have a hard rule saying QB is always assumed to be passing when his arm is moving forward rather than forcing a ref to make a judgement call on the QB's intentions.

 

[TommyD4207]

Wrong. David got pissed off the team finished 10-6, lowballed Gruden on his new deal before the Snow Bowl. Gruden's agent got snippy with Davis (bad move) and Glazer called Al and said he wanted Gruden. Gruden said fine .

To be fair, Davis had every right to be pissed off. That team underachieved and blew a bye week, which they should have had locked up weeks prior, went East, and choked that game away too.

Bill ****ing Callahan took that same team to the Super Bowl the next year.

 

[RobertWeathers]

To be fair, Davis had every right to be pissed off. That team underachieved and blew a bye week, which they should have had locked up weeks prior, went East, and choked that game away too.

Bill ****ing Callahan took that same team to the Super Bowl the next year.

I get that Al was pissed off. Thats his prerogative. I was just saying the narrative of Gruden shooting his way out of town is not accurate.

 

[TommyD4207]

I get that Al was pissed off. Thats his prerogative. I was just saying the narrative of Gruden shooting his way out of town is not accurate.

Oh agreed. If Gruden wasn't traded, he very well could have (and rightfully so IMO) been fired.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Oh agreed. If Gruden wasn't traded, he very well could have (and rightfully so IMO) been fired.

Knowing Al Davis and his history...very possible.