Give me your top 5 QBs

[CheeseMonkeys]

Because you say you aren't?
Only someone with a weak argument resorts to belittling the opinion of anyone who disagrees with him as part of a biased group. If you can't do better than that, you fail.

:rolleyes2:

THAT is your argument in response to the fact that he has lost every game decided by 10 or less points? He is because you say he is? Please give a single example of clutch play. Hint: There are none.

Manning had the biggest comeback of the season (tied for the fourth biggest regular season comebackin NFL history) vs the chargers after coming back from 24-0 at the half. If you don't call that clutch then you're nuts... On a side note, Manning was just awarded AFC offensive player of the month.

Brady hasn't had any memorable clutch performances this season. He has played well but nothing sticks out as clutch. And don't even get into "He was clutch vs the Jets" because that game was a gift in many ways. The Jets had so many opportunities and just blew it hard.

That has nothing to do with who has been a better QB. Find it as impressive as you want, who played better is not graded on a curve.

I wasn't saying that this makes him a better QB nor did I take it into much consideration at all when ranking my top 5. Yet I felt it was necessary to mention this simply because It's impressive.

I can't read your mind, I'm just commenting on what you write. You will have to judge your motivation for the inaccuracies for yourself. Perhaps figuring out why faced with overwhelming evidence you continue to want to pretend he has been clutch will assist your self analysis.

Is that the only problem you have with my analysis, is that I said he was more clutch than Brady? And that is what this argument is about right? you asked why I ranked Manning over Brady.

Oh yeah, and not that statistics mean that much but let me give you the numbers...

FOREHEAD- 68.5%, 301.9 Yds/G, AVG, 8.2, TD-17, INT, 4, QB Rating 109.0,
BRADY- 65.3 %, 301 Yds/G, AVG 7.5, TD 16, INT 3, QB Rating 100.6

Brady is the better QB career wise but in the 2012 season based on performance I really don't see the problem ranking Peyton ahead of Brady. It is really so close though and obviously these rankings will change as one outperforms the other.

 

[grux]

1. Brady
2. Rodgers
3. P. Manning
4. E. Manning
5. Ryan

 

[Ring 6]

:rolleyes2:

Manning had the biggest comeback of the season (tied for the fourth biggest regular season comebackin NFL history) vs the chargers after coming back from 24-0 at the half. If you don't call that clutch then you're nuts... On a side note, Manning was just awarded AFC offensive player of the month.

The Chargers handed them the game. What clutch plays did Manning make?There were no clutch situations for him to make them in.

Brady hasn't had any memorable clutch performances this season. He has played well but nothing sticks out as clutch. And don't even get into "He was clutch vs the Jets" because that game was a gift in many ways. The Jets had so many opportunities and just blew it hard.

What? He led them to a drive to tie and a drive to win. There was no gift. He went on the field needing to tie and needing to win. And did. That is clutch. WAY more clutch than anything Manning has done this year.
He also led his team to 31 points in the 4th quarter in a game that was tied after 3 vs Buffalo.

I wasn't saying that this makes him a better QB nor did I take it into much consideration at all when ranking my top 5. Yet I felt it was necessary to mention this simply because It's impressive.

You ranked him higher than Brady. You used that as a reason/excuse.

Is that the only problem you have with my analysis, is that I said he was more clutch than Brady?

No, your whole argument.

And that is what this argument is about right? you asked why I ranked Manning over Brady.

Being hurt last year is irrelevant to who is playing better this year. Playing better is between the lines, not based on excuses and rationalizations.

Oh yeah, and not that statistics mean that much but let me give you the numbers...

FOREHEAD- 68.5%, 301.9 Yds/G, AVG, 8.2, TD-17, INT, 4, QB Rating 109.0,
BRADY- 65.3 %, 301 Yds/G, AVG 7.5, TD 16, INT 3, QB Rating 100.6

If they don't matter, why post them?

Brady is the better QB career wise but in the 2012 season based on performance I really don't see the problem ranking Peyton ahead of Brady. It is really so close though and obviously these rankings will change as one outperforms the other.

Its not even in the vicinity of close.

 

[goheels22002]

:rolleyes2:

Manning had the biggest comeback of the season (tied for the fourth biggest regular season comebackin NFL history) vs the chargers after coming back from 24-0 at the half. If you don't call that clutch then you're nuts... On a side note, Manning was just awarded AFC offensive player of the month.

FOREHEAD- 68.5%, 301.9 Yds/G, AVG, 8.2, TD-17, INT, 4, QB Rating 109.0,
BRADY- 65.3 %, 301 Yds/G, AVG 7.5, TD 16, INT 3, QB Rating 100.6

A comeback against Norv Turner, Philip Rivers, and the San Diego Chargers isn't exactly a great accomplishment. Spotting Norv 24 points is rather sporting, I'd say. Getting down 24-0 in a half to the Chargers is an indictment of Manning, not some certificate of merit. Manning's ineptitude put him in that situation to begin with. Old Zipperneck threw an interception in the first half of that game that Quentin Jammer returned 80 yards for a TD. Nice work.

You left a key stat out: 2012 head-to-head, Patriots 1 - 0 versus the Broncos and Old Zipperneck.

 

[CheeseMonkeys]

The Chargers handed them the game. What clutch plays did Manning make?There were no clutch situations for him to make them in.

Did you not watch the game at all? Yeah the Chargers fell apart but Manning was tearing it up the second half, and made some spectacular plays.

What? He led them to a drive to tie and a drive to win. There was no gift. He went on the field needing to tie and needing to win. And did. That is clutch. WAY more clutch than anything Manning has done this year.
He also led his team to 31 points in the 4th quarter in a game that was tied after 3 vs Buffalo.

Brady threw a ball that should have been intercepted by Cromartie ending the game immediately. Before that Stephen Hill Bailed the Pats out with a crucial dropped pass that would have been a 1st down or even a TD. The game was a gift! We were so lucky to win that. The fact that the Jets couldn't close out that game after the fumble recovery was a major choke on the Jets part.

You ranked him higher than Brady. You used that as a reason/excuse. Being hurt last year is irrelevant to who is playing better this year. Playing better is between the lines, not based on excuses and rationalizations.

No **** I ranked him higher then Brady. I gave Manning props for going onto a new team off an injury and performing at a high level. Why do you have such a problem with that.

No, your whole argument.

What's wrong with my argument?

If they don't matter, why post them?

See what you do? You put words in my mouth. When did I say they don't matter? I said "not that they mean much"- everyone knows that when considering stats they should be taken with a grain of salt. Clearly you see that the stats favor Peyton so you try to brush them aside.

Its not even in the vicinity of close.

You're not too bright are you? :bricks:

 

[CheeseMonkeys]

A comeback against Norv Turner, Philip Rivers, and the San Diego Chargers isn't exactly a great accomplishment. Spotting Norv 24 points is rather sporting, I'd say. Getting down 24-0 in a half to the Chargers is an indictment of Manning, not some certificate of merit. Manning's ineptitude put him in that situation to begin with. Old Zipperneck threw an interception in the first half of that game that Quentin Jammer returned 80 yards for a TD. Nice work.

You left a key stat out: 2012 head-to-head, Patriots 1 - 0 versus the Broncos and Old Zipperneck.

The Patriots are a better team then the Broncos with a better Coach. I expect them to beat the Broncos. Brady is a more talented QB overall... I'm basing my rankings on overall performance in 2012, which in case I give the edge to Peyton Manning. Same Reason why I leave Eli out of the top 5.

 

[Ring 6]

Did you not watch the game at all? Yeah the Chargers fell apart but Manning was tearing it up the second half, and made some spectacular plays.

You argument is not that he played well its that he has been clutch. I will ask for the 3rd time what clutch play has he made?

Brady threw a ball that should have been intercepted by Cromartie ending the game immediately. Before that Stephen Hill Bailed the Pats out with a crucial dropped pass that would have been a 1st down or even a TD. The game was a gift! We were so lucky to win that.

So almost ints and dropped passes by the opponent negates clutch plays to win a game, and making no clutch plays makes Manning clutch?
You can't believe what you are saying.

No **** I ranked him higher then Brady. I gave Manning props for going onto a new team off an injury and performing at a high level. Why do you have such a problem with that.

Having an injury last year has nothing at all to do with assessing who played better this year. Why can't you get that?

What's wrong with my argument?

It is poor. I've pointed out all of the reasons.

See what you do? You put words in my mouth. When did I say they don't matter? I said "not that they mean much"- everyone knows that when considering stats they should be taken with a grain of salt.

Again, so why post them?

You're not too bright are you? :bricks:

Aha, the last resort of a losing argument, insult the other guy. Thanks, that actually equals a complement.

 

[Ring 6]

The Patriots are a better team then the Broncos with a better Coach. I expect them to beat the Broncos. Brady is a more talented QB overall... I'm basing my rankings on overall performance in 2012, which in case I give the edge to Peyton Manning. Same Reason why I leave Eli out of the top 5.

Yet your reason is clutch play and Manning hasn't made a single one all year.
Your other reason is you are objectively analyzing how each played yet making the decision that one played better because he was hurt last year.
That is not basing your ratings on overall performance.

 

[CheeseMonkeys]

You argument is not that he played well its that he has been clutch. I will ask for the 3rd time what clutch play has he made?


So almost ints and dropped passes by the opponent negates clutch plays to win a game, and making no clutch plays makes Manning clutch?
You can't believe what you are saying.









Having an injury last year has nothing at all to do with assessing who played better this year. Why can't you get that?


It is poor. I've pointed out all of the reasons.




Again, so why post them?



Aha, the last resort of a losing argument, insult the other guy. Thanks, that actually equals a complement.

Very informative response right here bud! You are so argumentative it's ridiculous. You also seem to take a lot of pride in thinking you're "winning an argument". But I insulted you (It was actually a question), so I MUST have lost this argument.

I can't be any more clear with the points I'm making. I'm not wasting my time picking apart and responding to your posts any more because it goes nowhere. You don't have anything to back up your argument except your petty oppositions to everything I say. There is no seeing from any other perspective except your own. You twist around my words and brush aside what I say because you don't want to believe that it's true.

The fact that you believe it's "not even close" between Peyton and Brady is just pure ignorance/stupidity or you're in denial that Manning is once again a contender at the QB position. You tell me.

 

[Fixit]

I'm ignoring the Peyton/Brady thing. I can see why some would argue that Manning is having a better season. I would disagree, but at least there's a reasonable argument to be made.

But I just can't let this Eli thing go.

Look at Eli's career numbers ... pedestrian. Look at this season's numbers ... pedestrian. In his last season and a half, he's completed approximately 61% of his passes and has a 41/24 TD/Int. ratio. And some of you have him as the best or second-best QB in football because he has a knack for sometimes digging his team out of a 4th-quarter hole that he was instrumental in creating during the first three quarters? Jesus, NOBODY has Roethlisberger as the best QB in football (and they shouldn't), and his numbers this year blow Eli's away.

When I wake up tomorrow, I hope it's back on my home planet, because I have no idea where the **** I've landed.

 

[CheeseMonkeys]

I'm ignoring the Peyton/Brady thing. I can see why some would argue that Manning is having a better season. I would disagree, but at least there's a reasonable argument to be made.

But I just can't let this Eli thing go.

Look at Eli's career numbers ... pedestrian. Look at this season's numbers ... pedestrian. In his last season and a half, he's completed approximately 61% of his passes and has a 41/24 TD/Int. ratio. And some of you have him as the best or second-best QB in football because he has a knack for sometimes digging his team out of a 4th-quarter hole that he was instrumental in creating during the first three quarters? Jesus, NOBODY has Roethlisberger as the best QB in football (and they shouldn't), and his numbers this year blow Eli's away.

When I wake up tomorrow, I hope it's back on my home planet, because I have no idea where the **** I've landed.

Wow, finally an intelligent post!

 

[CheeseMonkeys]

Yet your reason is clutch play and Manning hasn't made a single one all year.

A very ignorant and false statement.

Your other reason is you are objectively analyzing how each played yet making the decision that one played better because he was hurt last year.
That is not basing your ratings on overall performance.

I already explained this and you continue to bring it up. This is all you keep saying.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I'm ignoring the Peyton/Brady thing. I can see why some would argue that Manning is having a better season. I would disagree, but at least there's a reasonable argument to be made.

But I just can't let this Eli thing go.

Look at Eli's career numbers ... pedestrian. Look at this season's numbers ... pedestrian. In his last season and a half, he's completed approximately 61% of his passes and has a 41/24 TD/Int. ratio. And some of you have him as the best or second-best QB in football because he has a knack for sometimes digging his team out of a 4th-quarter hole that he was instrumental in creating during the first three quarters? Jesus, NOBODY has Roethlisberger as the best QB in football (and they shouldn't), and his numbers this year blow Eli's away.

When I wake up tomorrow, I hope it's back on my home planet, because I have no idea where the **** I've landed.

Well, I haven't really chimed in on the top 5 other than saying that TB, PM and Rodgers are in the top 5.

Despite that he and Haley are ready to kill each other, Roeth is having an outstanding year. This year, he is deserving to be in the Top 5 I guess.

Brees is also top 5 and is playing for a messed up team.

Is Eli a top 5 QB this year? I dunna know. For all his statistical faults he's 5th in QBR, has 3 GW drives and 2 SB rings. Lifetime is 23 games over .500 and his team this year is 6-2. Hes had a helluva career and can certainly chuck the ball around. His comp % is a bit down but the guy wins games. Period.

 

[Fixit]

Is Eli a top 5 QB this year? I dunna know. For all his statistical faults he's 5th in QBR, has 3 GW drives and 2 SB rings. Lifetime is 23 games over .500 and his team this year is 6-2. Hes had a helluva career and can certainly chuck the ball around. His comp % is a bit down but the guy wins games. Period.

He's 5th in QBR because QBR uses ridiculously subjective data to prop up "clutch plays." I don't bother using QBR because it's not actually a statistic; it's an argument.

Eli's a career 58% passer with a QB rating of 82.6 and a TD/int ratio of 197/137 (which is borderline awful). That's not a great career, and he doesn't "just win games" In his last 3 and 1/2 seasons, he's 33-23. People think he's better than he is because he's snuck into the playoffs twice and he got bailed out by everyone in sight on the way to two rings.

 

[Ring 6]

A very ignorant and false statement.

If that were the case you would be able to name a clutch play, and I am now asking for the 4th time.

I already explained this and you continue to bring it up. This is all you keep saying.

Because your explanation is that you are impressed that he is recovering from an injury, and I keep pointing out to you that this has no relevance to who is playing better. Yet you keep repeating yourself.
Its like me saying Ninkovich is playing better than JJ Watt and using 'he changed positions, so that's impressive' as the reasoning. Nothing outside of the plays they played on the football field have anything to do with who has played better. You can say it 1000 times, yet you are still wrong.

 

[RobertWeathers]

He's 5th in QBR because QBR uses ridiculously subjective data to prop up "clutch plays." I don't bother using QBR because it's not actually a statistic; it's an argument.

Eli's a career 58% passer with a QB rating of 82.6 and a TD/int ratio of 197/137 (which is borderline awful). That's not a great career, and he doesn't "just win games" In his last 3 and 1/2 seasons, he's 33-23. People think he's better than he is because he's snuck into the playoffs twice and he got bailed out by everyone in sight on the way to two rings.

What is wrong with factoring in clutch plays and winning?

Gotta ask yourself this honest question. Who is better, Eli or Tony Romo? Statistically it's Romo but do you really want him over Eli?

Is Eli Top 5 statistically as a passer? Of course not. But I think the value of a QB needs to go beyond stats. I hate to make my argument squishy but thats how I view QBs and one with two SB championships and a 8-3 playoff record deserves a little respect.

 

[Ring 6]

Very informative response right here bud! You are so argumentative it's ridiculous. You also seem to take a lot of pride in thinking you're "winning an argument". But I insulted you (It was actually a question), so I MUST have lost this argument.

I have not mentioned 'winning an argument'. I simply pointed out that your immature tactic is the epitome of the steps resorted to by someone with a losing argument, which of course, is spot on.

I can't be any more clear with the points I'm making. I'm not wasting my time picking apart and responding to your posts any more because it goes nowhere. You don't have anything to back up your argument except your petty oppositions to everything I say. There is no seeing from any other perspective except your own. You twist around my words and brush aside what I say because you don't want to believe that it's true.

Quite the contrary. I am EXPLAINING the errors in your argument, and you are simply repeating them, If anyone is being obstinate and refusing to open their mind it is you.
To recap:
You said Manning is playing better.
I asked why.
You said because:
1) he has been clutch
I explained that he has not, and USED FACTS, You responded with Yes he has, with no facts, and refused 4 times to list a single clutch play to prove your point (note I provided facts to show he has not)
2) He was injured last year
I pointed out that has nothing to do with who played better. "Playing better"is about play on the field, not what happened last year. The is effectively true by definition and you still continue to say it impresses you as if that means anything.

The fact that you believe it's "not even close" between Peyton and Brady is just pure ignorance/stupidity or you're in denial that Manning is once again a contender at the QB position. You tell me.

It isn't. That doesn't mean Manning hasn't played well, it means that there is no reasonable argument that he has been better. I didn't say his play wasn't close, I said it isn't close to assess who has been better. Its not that complicated to understand if you drop your attitude.

 

[Fixit]

What is wrong with factoring in clutch plays and winning?

Gotta ask yourself this honest question. Who is better, Eli or Tony Romo? Statistically it's Romo but do you really want him over Eli?

Is Eli Top 5 statistically as a passer? Of course not. But I think the value of a QB needs to go beyond winning. I hate to make my argument squishy but thats how I view QBs and one with two SB championships and a 8-3 playoff record deserves a little respect.

I give him a little respect, but that respect doesn't extend to calling him the top 1-2 QBs in football. That's a joke.

Here's all you need to know about QBR: Tebow's 4-10 day gave him a higher QBR than Rodger's 26-39 for 396 yards and 2 TDs

 

[RobertWeathers]

I give him a little respect, but that respect doesn't extend to calling him the top 1-2 QBs in football. That's a joke.

Here's all you need to know about QBR: Tebow's 4-10 day gave him a higher QBR than Rodger's 26-39 for 396 yards and 2 TDs

There is no such thing as an absolute stat like QBR, QB Rating, TDs, Comp %, etc that indicates how good a QB is. Thats why winning and championships must be part of the discussion.

 

[Fixit]

There is no such thing as an absolute stat like QBR, QB Rating, TDs, Comp %, etc that indicates how good a QB is. Thats why winning and championships must be part of the discussion.

Yup, and so should how much said QB contributed to winning, and how much winning was done is spite of his performance. His record is decent. His completion % is not good. His TD/int. is really not good. His decision making is flat-out awful far more than any other "elite" QB. We saw the "he just wins" argument with Tebow last year, and Vince Young a few years ago, and they were both awful. Now, Eli is better than both of those guys, obviously, but he's never been in the class of Brady/Peyton/Rodgers. Not even close.